End of Pennine in Skipton?

[Deerfold]

http://www.route-one.net/issues/530/pubData/source/routeone530.pdf

Battle: Pennine Motor Services faces struggle


Poor financial conditions at
Skipton-based Pennine Motor
Services have led it to issue
letters to all staff, stating the
business is losing money.
The firm has set a target of
eight weeks for the business to
be restructured, a sale of part or
all of it, or to find an investor,
otherwise it will close.
The partnership, with an
O-Licence for 17 vehicles, says
that reports that it has gone into
receivership are untrue and that
for the next eight weeks it will be
operating its buses, on six routes
from Skipton, as normal.
Since 1925 Pennine Motors’
orange and black buses have
served the Yorkshire dales and
East Lancashire.

 

[Surreyman]

http://www.route-one.net/issues/530/pubData/source/routeone530.pdf

I seem to recall that this operator has not been generating 'adequate levels of profit' for some time.

 

[robertclark125]

Competition from Transdev on its key Skipton - Burnley corridor, with Transdve apparently offering a better frequency, doesn't help. It was a while before it bought low floor buses (ex Bus Eireann), and that was about 2005/6.

 

[Deerfold]

Unless Transdev might be interesting in buying the competition between Burnley and Skipton I can't see anyone who might want part of its operations (it seems to have a PVR of about 11).

 

[KendalKing]

Before de-regulation Pennine used to operate a hourly Skipton - Lancaster service via Settle, Ingleton, and Hornby. The Ingleton - Lancaster section was jointly operated with Ribble.

Now a days, the route is operated in three sections:-
Pennine operates between Skipton and Settle/Giggleswick,
Kirkby Lonsdale Coaches operates the Settle and Ingleton/Kirkby Lonsdale section under contract to North Yorkshire CC,
and Stagecoach Cumbria operates the Lancaster to Ingleton section.

 

[34D]

Unless Transdev might be interesting in buying the competition between Burnley and Skipton I can't see anyone who might want part of its operations (it seems to have a PVR of about 11).

The harsh reality is that they don't need to take it over. They can just wait, then put an extra bus on

 

[overthewater]

What about the town services in Skipton, but of course Transdev would never want them.

 

[Deerfold]

Now a days, the route is operated in three sections:-
Pennine operates between Skipton and Settle/Giggleswick,

And only every two hourly on a Saturday

The harsh reality is that they don't need to take it over. They can just wait, then put an extra bus on

Or not even do that - they've 2 buses an hour to Skipton and 4 bph on parts of the route, better than much of the route has known for years.

 

[martinsh]

Pennine would do much better is they didn't divert via Barnoldswick between Skipton and Colne

 

[Deerfold]

Pennine would do much better is they didn't divert via Barnoldswick between Skipton and Colne

Must be a few bus travellers there or Transdev wouldn't send 4 buses an hour there from Colne/Burnley.



Sadly their website is fairly dismal. As a visitor to Skipton I'd have no idea how much they were going to cost me.

http://www.pennine-bus.co.uk/offers.html gives no prices and few indications of validity.

They could be great value, but who's to know?

 

[blackfive460]

More on this from the Craven Herald.

There are concerns over the future of Craven bus routes run by Pennine Motors.

North Yorkshire County Council confirmed that it has been informed “there is a possibility Pennine Motor Services may cease trading in the next few months”.

The firm which runs its orange and black liveried buses throughout Craven including school transport, operates services from Skipton to Settle, Malham, Embsay, Carleton, Barnoldswick, Earby, Colne, Nelson and Burnley.

The company itself has refused to make any comment on the council’s statement.

But a source close to the company told the Craven Herald that a full service is still being provided.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

With heritage railway visits in mind, how many existing services of all operators serve Embsay from Skipton ?

 

[Deerfold]

With heritage railway visits in mind, how many existing services of all operators serve Embsay from Skipton ?

Pennine's 214 Mon-Sat hourly:

http://www.pennine-bus.co.uk/214.pdf

Dalesbus Sunday:

http://dalesbus.org/cravenlink/cravenlink.html

(From 20th April:http://dalesbus.org/cravenlink/cravenlinksummer.html )

I think that's it.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Confirmed that Pennine Motors will stop operating from May 16th 2014.

http://www.cravenherald.co.uk/news/...med_for_Craven_bus_service_closure/?ref=var_0

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What an opportunity for Northern Rail to buy their fleet and use some of these for the Blackburn-Copy Pit line-Manchester "Pacer-replacement service"...

 

[KendalKing]

Confirmed that Pennine Motors will stop operating from May 16th 2014.

http://www.cravenherald.co.uk/news/...med_for_Craven_bus_service_closure/?ref=var_0

That is real sad ad:

Before de-regulation Pennine used to operate a hourly Skipton - Lancaster service via Settle, Ingleton, and Hornby. The Ingleton - Lancaster section was jointly operated with Ribble.

Now a days, the route is operated in three sections:-
Pennine operates between Skipton and Settle/Giggleswick,
Kirkby Lonsdale Coaches operates the Settle and Ingleton/Kirkby Lonsdale section under contract to North Yorkshire CC,
and Stagecoach Cumbria operates the Lancaster to Ingleton section.

Now, that Pennine has decide to call it a day. I sincerely hope that North Yorkshire CC, extend the current service between Kirkby Lonsdale/Ingleton and Settle to Skipton, so that once again, there's a Ingleton to Skipton service.

 

[burns20]

I always thought a Windermere/Kendal-Skipton route would work "DalesLakesLink".

Every 2 hours 6 days a week Winter with a Summer Sunday service.

Not many firms will take the risk though.

Plus what firm would run the dead mileage to the extreme ends?

No room at Stagecoach's Ingleton depot (rented off Pennine? so what will happen there?) for an additional bus.

Transdev depots seem too far away.

Kirkby Lonsdale Coaches perhaps.

 

[cainebj]

I always thought a Windermere/Kendal-Skipton route would work "DalesLakesLink".

Every 2 hours 6 days a week Winter with a Summer Sunday service.

Not many firms will take the risk though.

Plus what firm would run the dead mileage to the extreme ends?

No room at Stagecoach's Ingleton depot (rented off Pennine? so what will happen there?) for an additional bus.

Transdev depots seem too far away.

Kirkby Lonsdale Coaches perhaps.

There was something sort of similar in the 90s operated by Kendal depot, although it was a longer distance, 1 journey each way per day coach service operating from the Lakes to York via Skipton. Timetable link as a reference.
Could maybe work if it was operated as an X67 Limited Stop service, like that old X9. Have the first duty start in Kendal going to Skipton, and the second duty starting in Kendal running in service to Ambleside then working in service to Skipton in roughly 1hr 50. PVR 2 running every 2 hours.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Pennine would do much better is they didn't divert via Barnoldswick between Skipton and Colne

Would you say that the TransDev services 28 and 29 already provide enough in the way of a service for Barnoldswick ?

 

[Deerfold]

Would you say that the TransDev services 28 and 29 already provide enough in the way of a service for Barnoldswick ?

I think they provide a good service for those areas - but of course they were only extended to Skipton (and the frequency improved) long after the Pennine service existed.

I suspect Pennine didn't want to risk losing any customers who continued to use them by taking a faster route away from them.

 

[Ant158]

According to the Transdev website they are to increase the frequency of the Mainline service to Skipton, with some journeys going via Craven College/ Gargrave Road.

Starting from May:

http://www.lancashirebus.co.uk/news.jsp?newsID=1091

 

[34D]

According to the Transdev website they are to increase the frequency of the Mainline service to Skipton, with some journeys going via Craven College/ Gargrave Road.

Starting from May:

http://www.lancashirebus.co.uk/news.jsp?newsID=1091

And to quote the text:

28-03-2014
*

Following concerns in the Skipton region that public transport in the area will be drastically cut following the potential closure of Pennine Motor Services, we are increasing the frequency of the Mainline service into Skipton and making some changes to the route. This will offer an improved service to the local community and minimise the impact on the bus user.

The loss of services running into Skipton leads to justified concerns over capacity in the area, to combat this we will be adding an extra bus into their Mainline service which will be able to provide additional peak time journeys and an improved frequency throughout the day. On weekdays up to four buses an hour will link Skipton with Barnoldswick and East Lancashire. Many of the additional journeys will operate via Craven College on Gargrave Road giving that area a half hourly link to the town centre.

We will also be working closely with North Yorkshire County Council to review further services to support the local community and ensure public transport links are maintained.

Richard Jackson, Transdevs Development Director, said ‘We are greatly saddened to hear of the possible demise of such an established company, unfortunately it seems the cuts that are currently being imposed across all public transport operators have had a dramatic effect on Pennine Motor service. We are however pleased to be able to offer an improved service, which should minimise the impact on the local community and bus users.’

We hope to have these services running from the19th May 2014, subject to approval, in order to reduce disruption to the bus services.

 

[leedslad82]

Sad news. But unfortunately independent operators like this will always be squeezed out by the big boys. Didn't help that the fleet was so old. Was a running joke when I worked in skipton that the buses were flea pits.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Sad news. But unfortunately independent operators like this will always be squeezed out by the big boys. Didn't help that the fleet was so old. Was a running joke when I worked in skipton that the buses were flea pits.

Good to see a posting from someone with personal knowledge of the vehicle stock that was used by them.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Sadly their website is fairly dismal. As a visitor to Skipton I'd have no idea how much they were going to cost me.

http://www.pennine-bus.co.uk/offers.html gives no prices and few indications of validity.

They could be great value, but who's to know?

This is not unusual for bus operators. A recent visit elsewhere in the country led me to need to catch a Stagecoach Bus for one leg of a journey. There were a number of possible permutations of journeys and tickets so I wanted to find out the fares. Having found nothing about fares on their website (except some stuff about day tickets which I didn't want) I rung up the enquiry number to ask about single fares. This proved a major challenge as they said they didn't have single fare details to hand and after lots of talking to other colleagues (all of whom sounded to be equally bemused by this request) they concluded they would need to ring a garage and would call me back.

That is real sad ad:



Now, that Pennine has decide to call it a day. I sincerely hope that North Yorkshire CC, extend the current service between Kirkby Lonsdale/Ingleton and Settle to Skipton, so that once again, there's a Ingleton to Skipton service.

On the basis that NYCC have just withdrawn subsidy for the second town service in Skipton (not the Pennine operated one, the 73 Greenacres Circular) which is being withdrawn completely imminently, have slashed funding for the Skipton - Grassington and Ilkley - Grassington services, which now see a considerably reduced service despite being busy services (NYCC's justification for the cuts was that most journeys are seasonal traffic "leisure" journeys which is not a priority for the council), and has in the past year or so left other local villages such as Bradley with a vastly reduced virtually non existent bus service, then I can see no reason why they would either want to, or have the funds to, introduce any tendered services on any of the former Pennine routes, save for the school buses they are obliged to now provide.

No room at Stagecoach's Ingleton depot (rented off Pennine? so what will happen there?) for an additional bus.



.

Ingleton garage is still owned by Pennine (and has Leyland National inside it) so what happens beyond 16th May is anyone's guess.

And to quote the text:

28-03-2014
*

Following concerns in the Skipton region that public transport in the area will be drastically cut following the potential closure of Pennine Motor Services, we are increasing the frequency of the Mainline service into Skipton and making some changes to the route. This will offer an improved service to the local community and minimise the impact on the bus user.

The loss of services running into Skipton leads to justified concerns over capacity in the area, to combat this we will be adding an extra bus into their Mainline service which will be able to provide additional peak time journeys and an improved frequency throughout the day. On weekdays up to four buses an hour will link Skipton with Barnoldswick and East Lancashire. Many of the additional journeys will operate via Craven College on Gargrave Road giving that area a half hourly link to the town centre.

We will also be working closely with North Yorkshire County Council to review further services to support the local community and ensure public transport links are maintained.

Richard Jackson, Transdevs Development Director, said ‘We are greatly saddened to hear of the possible demise of such an established company, unfortunately it seems the cuts that are currently being imposed across all public transport operators have had a dramatic effect on Pennine Motor service. We are however pleased to be able to offer an improved service, which should minimise the impact on the local community and bus users.’

We hope to have these services running from the19th May 2014, subject to approval, in order to reduce disruption to the bus services.

I am surprised Transdev seem so shocked by this news.

For some years now Transdev has been trying to buy Pennine. When this failed they started running into Skipton beyond Barnoldswick, a route which had been solely Pennine operated since deregulation following an agreement with Burnley and Pendle. The Skipton - Burnley route was the only route which made any real money for Pennine in recent years, and when Transdev started operating more buses with lower fares then it was going to get difficult. Pennine responded by introducing an extra 1 bus per hour on the busiest section between Barnoldswick and Burnley and reducing fares. Transdev responded by introducing more buses and lowering fares again, principally by allowing the extremely cheap K-Day tickets to be used over sections of the route. A small company with a small number of buses and resources simply can't get the same economies of scale to compete this way.

Couple to this the fact that the majority of passengers on the remaining routes are using ENCTS passes then you have further problems. NYCC has slashed the amount it pays bus operators for carrying ENCTS passengers about 3 times in recent years, and is now only about 50p per journey for some Pennine routes such as the 216. NYCC only pays the money out twice per year too, so you instantly have cash flow problems too for a small firm which used to get money every day through the fare box. NYCC has also reduced the amount it pays out for carrying school children using free home to school passes on commercial services.

All these factors combined meant that it simply was becoming unviable to operate - there was no profit, indeed they have been running at a loss following these 3 big changes - reduced income following increased competition on the busiest Skipton - Burnley route, reduced income following reduced payments from NYCC in respect of ENCTS and Scholars permit passengers.

Sad news. But unfortunately independent operators like this will always be squeezed out by the big boys. Didn't help that the fleet was so old. Was a running joke when I worked in skipton that the buses were flea pits.

The Leopard Coaches used as service buses prior to circa 1993 were not in their first youth and were a bit tired at times, but since the introduction of Leyland Nationals in 1993 onwards then the quality has improved. In the main the Nationals, whilst a bit old towards the end, were always clean and presentable and often in far better condition than many other operators buses. Since the demise of the Nationals then the Dennis Darts used have been quite good. They currently operate a mainly low floor fleet of Darts, most of which are younger than the buses Transdev use on my local services.


Of course the big question for locals will be what will happen to bus services?
Well my guess is that the Malham service will have to be provided by NYCC as it is provides school transport provision. Carleton can be served by diverting in one of Transdev's service 28 buses off the Barnoldswick - Skipton corridor (as Pennine used to do for many years). Embsay and Horse Close Estate I suspect will be left without buses - I can't see NYCC having any interest in tendering these, Pride of the Dales has already said it won't operate them commercially and Transdev is the only other operator in the area likely to be interested in operating these as a commercial service (incidentally, if they do, and assuming they are operated out of Keighley, it would be full circle as they were West Yorkshire Road Car (which became K&D in the area) routes until deregulation and K&D still operated through Embsay on service 76 until 1996). Settle will have to be provided with a school bus service, but whether NYCC will have interest in tendering the whole route is a different matter. Settle and Hellifield to Skipton has quite a good train service.

And of course, of greater concern for one of my acquaintances, is the fact that he is being made redundant and has no job after 16th May, and has a mortgage and kids to pay for.

 

[Deerfold]

This is not unusual for bus operators. A recent visit elsewhere in the country led me to need to catch a Stagecoach Bus for one leg of a journey. There were a number of possible permutations of journeys and tickets so I wanted to find out the fares. Having found nothing about fares on their website (except some stuff about day tickets which I didn't want) I rung up the enquiry number to ask about single fares. This proved a major challenge as they said they didn't have single fare details to hand and after lots of talking to other colleagues (all of whom sounded to be equally bemused by this request) they concluded they would need to ring a garage and would call me back.

Sadly it's not usual but that seems to be a problem for the industry as a whole. At least if you have a day ticket price you know the most you're going to be spending - and if you want to advertise to commuters having prices of weekly/monthly tickets make sense - most companies at least advertise the prices of these.

 

[robertclark125]

Two things. Firstly, could Stagecoach Cumbria and North Lancs buy the Ingleton outstation from Pennine?

Secondly, given the fact that Transdev are increasing their presence in the area, could they buy Pennine's depot in Skipton, after Pennine cease operations?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Two things. Firstly, could Stagecoach Cumbria and North Lancs buy the Ingleton outstation from Pennine?

Secondly, given the fact that Transdev are increasing their presence in the area, could they buy Pennine's depot in Skipton, after Pennine cease operations?

I doubt it on both counts. Would guess that Ingleton would be sold for development so Stagecoach would either need to relocate to a yard or run from Morecambe (!).

When West Yorkshire RCC closed their Skipton depot (incidentally also used by Ribble after they closed their depot in 1976), all ops were run from neighbouring depots (mainly Keighley) so would expect that Transdev will run in from Burnley and Keighley.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I doubt it on both counts. Would guess that Ingleton would be sold for development so Stagecoach would either need to relocate to a yard or run from Morecambe (!).

When West Yorkshire RCC closed their Skipton depot (incidentally also used by Ribble after they closed their depot in 1976), all ops were run from neighbouring depots (mainly Keighley) so would expect that Transdev will run in from Burnley and Keighley.

When I moved to the area in 1992 the Skipton - Grassington - Buckden also Skipton - Embsay - Bolton Abbey - Burnsall - Grassington services were operated by Keighley and District working out of Keighley garage - quite a bit of dead mileage Keighley to Kettlewell each morning!

 

[34D]

It ain't all over yet.... all sorts of things could be happening between the scenes