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End of Pennine in Skipton?

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KendalKing

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Would guess that Ingleton would be sold for development so Stagecoach would either need to relocate to a yard or run from Morecambe (!).

I doubt that Ingleton, would be sold for development, as on one side & rear you have Bibby's Coaches, and on the other you have Daleswear outdoor.


When I moved to the area in 1992 the Skipton - Grassington - Buckden also Skipton - Embsay - Bolton Abbey - Burnsall - Grassington services were operated by Keighley and District working out of Keighley garage - quite a bit of dead mileage Keighley to Kettlewell each morning!

I remember the Skipton to Grassington service, if I remember correctly K&D use to have an outstation at Grassington.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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I doubt that Ingleton, would be sold for development, as on one side & rear you have Bibby's Coaches, and on the other you have Daleswear outdoor.




I remember the Skipton to Grassington service, if I remember correctly K&D use to have an outstation at Grassington.

I was thinking that one of the two firms might have it to expand their respective parking areas?

WYRCC and K&D did maintain the faintly ridiculous and oversized bus depot and station at Grassington with even an enquiry office! Think it was built in the 1950s and could hold about 6-8 vehicles. It's now a Royal Mail depot (but for how long, one wonders. It's quite a big site!

Can't recall if, after disposal, K&D maintained any form of outstation up there before leaving the area?
 

Solent&Wessex

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I was thinking that one of the two firms might have it to expand their respective parking areas?

WYRCC and K&D did maintain the faintly ridiculous and oversized bus depot and station at Grassington with even an enquiry office! Think it was built in the 1950s and could hold about 6-8 vehicles. It's now a Royal Mail depot (but for how long, one wonders. It's quite a big site!

Can't recall if, after disposal, K&D maintained any form of outstation up there before leaving the area?

They did not.

I am sure it had closed by 1993.

The mark left on the wall by the old signs means the words "West Yorkshire Road Car" can still be faintly seen on the side facing the road. The words "Bus Station" can clearly be seen on the side above the entrance.
 

NorthernSpirit

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What services do Stagecoach use for the shared Ingleton outstation?

If Pennine is intrested I'd happily purchase on the cheap one of their Northern Counties bodied Dennis Darts.
 

robertclark125

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If you key in "hebden Road grassington" into google streetview, you'll be able to see the royal mail depot, and on the side of the building can be seen "Bus Station".
 

KendalKing

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According to the Transdev website they are to increase the frequency of the Mainline service to Skipton, with some journeys going via Craven College/ Gargrave Road.

Starting from May:

http://www.lancashirebus.co.uk/news.jsp?newsID=1091

PC0005249/12 - BURNLEY & PENDLE TRAVEL LTD, PROSPECT PARK, BROUGHTON WAY, HARROGATE, HG2 7NY
Variation Accepted by SN: Operating between Colne and Skipton Bus Station given service number 20/21/22/23/24/25/26/27/28/28a/29/451 effective from 19-May-2014. To amend Timetable.
 

NorthernSpirit

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Solent&Wessex

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Yes I have. There is a meeting this week, chaired by NYCC, so I understand.

I suspect that the meeting will be with Transdev to see what they will / can be tempted to do to replace some of the routes. Without going into too many details Pennine has debts which I am told has caused the banks to say "enough is enough, time is up".
 

Deerfold

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Deerfold

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If the proposed Transdev service increases do in fact go ahead, will there be any detrimental effect upon passenger usage numbers upon the service patterns already in force ?

I assume they will go ahead - as per post #39.

Parts of the route will go from 6 buses an hour to 4 buses an hour but Skipton - Barnoldswick will go from 3 to 4 buses an hour.

I'm not sure how busy the buses are over the entire routes. I may try a B&P silver ticket at some point (probably on a Saturday) and do Keighley-Skipton-Burnley-Keighley. I doubt there were enough passengers to justify 6bph along any part of the route (except the central Burnley - Nelson - Colne section that already gets 8bph from B&P including the Keighley and Trawden services).
 

KendalKing

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Originally posted in the Stagecoach NW Thread. But as it concerns Pennine, I through it should also be posted on here.

Although related to Pennine Motor Services, this concerns mainly Stagecoach, but mods, feel free to duplicate this post in the Pennine thread.

Stagecoach Cumbrian and North Lancs have confirmed to me, via e-mail this morning, that their operation of Ingleton outstation, and route 80 from there to Lancaster, is unaffected by the decision by Pennine to close. In fact, the operations manager at Lancaster says that Pennine is ceasing to run buses, but the property side of the business is unaffected, and so the outstation will carry on as normal.
 

34D

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Yes kendalking.

It is worth emphasising that Mr Simpson (proprietor of Pennine) functions (as far as stagecoach and other tenants are concerned) exactly as any other commercial landlord does.
 

Solent&Wessex

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Yes kendalking.

It is worth emphasising that Mr Simpson (proprietor of Pennine) functions (as far as stagecoach and other tenants are concerned) exactly as any other commercial landlord does.

Indeed. The buildings are owned by the Simpson family, rather than Pennine as a company.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The closure has now been logged with the traffic commissioner. All Pennine services are shown as withdrawn on and from 17th May 2014, with the exception of the 210 which is shown as finishing 1 day earlier for some reason - I suspect an error.

Can't find any replacement services registered to anybody, with the exception of the already mentioned changes to the Transdev services on the Burnley route.
 

Deerfold

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Indeed. The buildings are owned by the Simpson family, rather than Pennine as a company.

Although there doesn't actually seem to be a company distinct from members of the family (no separate legal entity such as a limited company).
 

blackfive460

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According to the chap doing passenger surveys on the 580 yesterday the services not already covered are out to tender with other operators. No interest as yet but we can expect a much reduced service apparently.
I just hope that 'much reduced' doesn't translate as 'useless' similar to the recent change to the 115 Scarborough - Ravenscar service...
 

Solent&Wessex

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Although there doesn't actually seem to be a company distinct from members of the family (no separate legal entity such as a limited company).

According to Companies House, Pennine Motor Services doesn't exist either.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
According to the chap doing passenger surveys on the 580 yesterday the services not already covered are out to tender with other operators. No interest as yet but we can expect a much reduced service apparently.
I just hope that 'much reduced' doesn't translate as 'useless' similar to the recent change to the 115 Scarborough - Ravenscar service...

I am led to believe that NYCC are preparing to operate some of the routes in house, operated by NYCC Fleet Services, due to lack of interest from commercial operators and NYCC having insufficient funds to offer a tendered service at a rate which would encourage anybody to actually want to do it.

For those that are unaware, there are a few services operated directly by NYCC in the Skipton area, the most notable being the 78A from Skipton to Airedale Hospital. These NYCC routes are operated by them primarily, it seems, as nobody wants to operate commercially and nobody wants to operate with the low price NYCC are prepared to pay.

The NYCC policy on these routes appear to be run as minimal service as possible to suppress demand and hence say nobody uses it and it can be withdrawn.
 

Baxenden Bank

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.... These NYCC routes are operated by them primarily, it seems, as nobody wants to operate commercially and nobody wants to operate with the low price NYCC are prepared to pay.

The NYCC policy on these routes appear to be run as minimal service as possible to suppress demand and hence say nobody uses it and it can be withdrawn.

It would be interesting to know how much it costs for NYCC to operate bus services directly compared with a commecial operator operating under tender.

Although regretable, the orderly closure of the Pennine operation contrasts favourably with the overnight disappearance of the community bus operation in the Skipton area.

Perhaps, one day, Transdev Burnley and Pendle will condescend to publish their new timetable for the Burnley to Skipton service....

NYCC never has had much interest in bus services, even before deregulation. A typical rural conservative county - not interested in such things - do the minimum necessary to avoid public revolt but nothing more. They spent rural bus grant when it was on offer, now it has gone and so have the services. You get what you vote for.
 

Deerfold

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According to Companies House, Pennine Motor Services doesn't exist either.

That was my point - there is no Limited company, it's either a sole trader or a partnership.

I am led to believe that NYCC are preparing to operate some of the routes in house, operated by NYCC Fleet Services, due to lack of interest from commercial operators and NYCC having insufficient funds to offer a tendered service at a rate which would encourage anybody to actually want to do it.

For those that are unaware, there are a few services operated directly by NYCC in the Skipton area, the most notable being the 78A from Skipton to Airedale Hospital. These NYCC routes are operated by them primarily, it seems, as nobody wants to operate commercially and nobody wants to operate with the low price NYCC are prepared to pay.

There were several bids for the 78A last time round - this bus used to pass my house hourly. NYCC halved the frequency and shortened the route - they also specified the timetable with breaks at the Skipton end which presumably didn't suit Transdev who used to have breaks in Keighley. Unfortunately the winning bidder went bankrupt and NYCC took over the route. Transdev commercialised the withdrawn bit of route, adding a second hourly service to Burnley.

The NYCC policy on these routes appear to be run as minimal service as possible to suppress demand and hence say nobody uses it and it can be withdrawn.

Unfortunately I think you might be right.
 

Hardcastle

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I would have thought a 90 minute interval commercial daytime service Skipton-Settle would be viable using one bus or a extend the Keighley-Skipton service to Settle or the Kirkby Lonsdale-Settle to Skipton.
 

ianhr

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With heritage railway visits in mind, how many existing services of all operators serve Embsay from Skipton ?

There is a new Transdev route 873 Sundays and Bank Holidays which runs Ilkley Railway Station to Skipton via Bolton Abbey and Embsay. The timetable has 4 round trips (some extended to Malham), 3 serve Skipton Railway station. All stop near the station approach in Embsay, but the Bolton Abbey stop is about a 1/2 mile walk from the YDR. Although infrequent the times are convenient for a day trip to the YDR but you need to consult the timetable.
 

Solent&Wessex

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The details of the replacement services, provided by NYCC Fleet Services, are now available on the NYCC Website.

Embsay, former home and home to my parents goes from an hourly service to 3 buses per day Monday to Friday only with no Saturday service, and reduced to 16 seats. http://www.northyorkstravel.info/timetable/14nycc.pdf

Ditto Carleton: http://www.northyorkstravel.info/timetable/12nycc.pdf

Horse Close has 5 buses per day, but no school services. Kids will have to walk!! http://www.northyorkstravel.info/timetable/16nycc.pdf

No service shown for the 580 or 210 corridors yet, nothing listed for school buses either. Not quite sure how school kids will cope. Embsay school bus currently runs full, it is shown as being reduced to 16 seats only from 19th May!
 

blackfive460

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The 580 is replaced by NYCC 58 running Monday to Friday only: 3 return journeys from Skipton to Giggleswick and 3 return journeys from Skipton to Hellifield. This will be a 16 seater vehicle.

The basic times are; 08:35 10:45 12:45 Skipton to Giggleswick; 10:20 12:20 14:20 Skipton to Hellifield; 09:25 11:25 13:25 Giggleswick to Skipton and 09:16 10:46 12:46 14:46 Hellifield to Skipton.

The full timetable is at http://www.northyorkstravel.info/timetable/58nycc.pdf

Quite how they expect to cope using a 16 seater will be interesting.
The 11:30 from Giggleswick was 90% full leaving Settle today and that is not at all unusual.
 

Solent&Wessex

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The 580 is replaced by NYCC 58 running Monday to Friday only: 3 return journeys from Skipton to Giggleswick and 3 return journeys from Skipton to Hellifield. This will be a 16 seater vehicle.

The basic times are; 08:35 10:45 12:45 Skipton to Giggleswick; 10:20 12:20 14:20 Skipton to Hellifield; 09:25 11:25 13:25 Giggleswick to Skipton and 09:16 10:46 12:46 14:46 Hellifield to Skipton.

The full timetable is at http://www.northyorkstravel.info/timetable/58nycc.pdf

Quite how they expect to cope using a 16 seater will be interesting.
The 11:30 from Giggleswick was 90% full leaving Settle today and that is not at all unusual.

The same applies on Embsay and Horse Close services - 16 seats simply will not cope with demand.

Unless they are hoping that the severely reduced service means people simply won't travel seeing as they can't get back again. From Giggleswick and Settle unless you go to Skipton on the first bus at 0925 you don't really have time to do anything there anyway. If you are going in to Settle you have a bit more time. If you go on the new 1130 departure you only have 35 mins in Skipton till the last bus back again at 1245, with nothing thereafter! Embsay is the same, you can't use the service for work, college, or anything other than a very brief visit into town. It might not even be much good for doctors appointments etc as you only have a narrow slot in the day when the service runs, which doesn't give much flexibility for doing anything other than a quick visit to some shops.

NYCC have said, in a letter to one Parish Council:

NYCC said:
As you will be aware the commercial services currently operated by Pennine Motors are to be withdrawn on the 16th May 2014.

We had hoped that another operator would take these on commercially and we did have discussions with four operators but without a positive outcome.

However we have made arrangements for some journeys to be provided by North Yorkshire County Council utilising our fleet service 16 seat minibuses. We appreciate that we are offering a Monday to Friday service and fewer journeys than the existing service but consider that this will meet essential access needs. The service will be introduced on Monday 19th May.

We think there are some future opportunities to work with other providers to improve the level of service without council subsidy and we will follow these up once we have established our service.

If you have any queries please contact [email protected] .

Separate arrangements have been made for children entitled to free school transport and we will notify parents separately.

Yours sincerely

Mary Welch

Public Transport Officer

Tel : 0845 872 7374

I.e. - we have no intention on spending any more of our cash on it, we are not going to subsidise a decent service, and unless someone comes in to do it commercially you can lump it.
 
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