End of Pennine in Skipton?

[Hardcastle]

Why no evening service if its so popular !

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Maybe Stagecoach could run a Ingleton - Giggleswick - Settle - Skipton service on a two hourly basis with two journeys commencing from Ingleton (such as one at 7am-ish and 2pm-ish) / with two terminating (such as one at 1pm and another at 7pm-ish), it could also be registered as the 580!

Anything would be better than a 90 minute shopping allowence on the current service 58, because of this any future journeys to Settle will be by rail and not by bus.

 

[blackfive460]

Maybe Stagecoach could run a Ingleton - Giggleswick - Settle - Skipton ...

I'm sure Stagecoach could but who's going to pay them to run it? It certainly won't work as a commercial service.

I know we don't like what's happening but to be realistic, NYCC don't get sufficient funding from central government so they prioritise where the money goes and while I, and I'm sure the rest of us consider that public transport should have a far higher priority, that's not the council's view.
That's something to bear in mind when the next local elections come round.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I know we don't like what's happening but to be realistic, NYCC don't get sufficient funding from central government so they prioritise where the money goes and while I, and I'm sure the rest of us consider that public transport should have a far higher priority, that's not the council's view. That's something to bear in mind when the next local elections come round.

I think that you have to ask yourself what others who vote will see as their own personal priorities, as not everyone attaches as much priority to travel as contributors to this thread as to other totally unrelated public services that are provided by NYCC.

 

[Tetchytyke]

They seem to have been criticised for extending their popular 28 and 29 services to Skipton but this is only one of several initiatives from the company.

I think the problem is that these bus companies can cherry-pick the best bits and leave everything else to flounder. The direct consequence of their competition between Skipton and Burnley was that other bus routes, routes which were only viable because of the "premier" route, have now been lost.

It's a shame that there is no regulator to force Transdev to take on the lost Pennine routes. There should be, but there isn't.

 

[KendalKing]

Maybe Stagecoach could run a Ingleton - Giggleswick - Settle - Skipton service on a two hourly basis

KLCH already operate a two hourly Kirkby Lonsdale - Ingleton - Giggleswick - Settle service, which is subsidized by NYCC.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is there anything of interest to this thread in the summer Dales Bus timetables ?

 

[Deerfold]

I think the problem is that these bus companies can cherry-pick the best bits and leave everything else to flounder. The direct consequence of their competition between Skipton and Burnley was that other bus routes, routes which were only viable because of the "premier" route, have now been lost.

That is indeed a problem. I'm in favour of a franchising system of bus routes similar to the London model (though you have to be careful you don't stifle creativity and have a network that does not respond to changing travel needs)

It's a shame that there is no regulator to force Transdev to take on the lost Pennine routes. There should be, but there isn't.

I suspect that a regulator that worked like that would stifle companies so they daren't move out of their own areas.

Burnley and Pendle used to run the route to Skipton so you could argue that Pennine muscled in in the first place - it depends how far back you go.

 

[RELL6L]

My point was exactly as suggested above. I am not from the area so forgive me if I talk nonsense but I think that one of the last straws for Pennine was that Transdev started running four buses per hour on their best route between Skipton and Barnoldswick. It surprises me that there is no route from Burnley to Skipton sticking to the main road, especially in view of there being enthusiasm for reopening the railway line here. If there is demand for a railway here why is there no direct bus? Transdev could reroute two of the buses each hour via the direct route through Earby or perhaps run a different service along the main road. The obvious one here would seem to be to extend the X43 as this would provide good options and a through service to Manchester, a link here being a further part of the perceived need to reopen the railway line. No doubt there would be issues with reliability heading back to Skipton in the evening but this could provide a good through facility.

Dealing with the sad demise of Pennine I think the worst impact is the loss of the service to Settle, the replacement by North Yorkshire being derisory. I would suggest Transdev could address this at a cost of only one additional bus by extending the 66 Keighley service from Skipton to Settle and Giggleswick along the route the 580 used to run. Leave Giggleswick at 7.55, 9.25, 11.25, 13.25, 15.25 and 17.05 and return from Skipton at 8.33, 10.33, 12.33, 14.33, 16.05 and 17.40. These all extend existing journeys on service 66. A bus has to get from the depot to Giggleswick for the first journey and return after the last one which I guess would be an empty run as to run in service wouldn’t add much. This would also provide a bus off the 66 to do local runs in Skipton for half an hour at 10.05, 12.05 and 14.05, the best fit being the existing daytime North Yorkshire journeys to Carleton on service 12, provided the bus isn't too large. These timings would provide good connections at Settle with the existing 581 service on to Ingleton and Kirkby Lonsdale. Just think of the local goodwill Transdev could get.

An alternative, slightly more complicated and dramatic, would be to combine Skipton to Settle with Settle to Kirkby Lonsdale and Kirkby Lonsdale to Kendal, the last of these being Stagecoach’s 567 service. I reckon a through journey between Kendal and Skipton would take about 1 hour 50 minutes, ideal for a two hourly through service during the day. You’d have to amend this for school timings and deal with it being a mixture of a mainly commercial Stagecoach service and a tendered service operated by Kirkby Lonsdale Coach Hire, which may make it all too difficult! No doubt some will say Stagecoach should operate it all and use the Ingleton outstation. This would only use two buses, basically the same as the existing 567 (Stagecoach) and 581 (Kirkby Lonsdale Coach Hire). It probably wouldn’t be economic without some subsidy from Lancashire and North Yorkshire, and possibly Cumbria, but if the existing resources were combined and a bit of joined up thinking applied it might just work!

 

[Deerfold]

Pennine has had far higher fares than Transdev, especially in and around Keighley.

Unless lower fares attract far more passengers, K&D would have to make any new services excluded from their current fares structure which allows off-peak travel across their network for under 4 pounds.

 

[lyndhurst25]

http://www.cravenherald.co.uk/news/11243492.Fresh_hopes_for_new_bus_service/?ref=var_0

It seems that Kirkby Lonsdale Coach Hire are in talks to extend their KL to Settle service into Skipton to replace the lost Pennine 580 route.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Breaking News. Suggestion of new 2 hourly service starting up within weeks.

http://www.cravenherald.co.uk/news/11243492.Fresh_hopes_for_new_bus_service/?ref=var_0

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Breaking News. Suggestion of new 2 hourly service starting up within weeks.

http://www.cravenherald.co.uk/news/11243492.Fresh_hopes_for_new_bus_service/?ref=var_0

It will be interesting to note how long the discussions between NYCC and Kirkby Lonsdale Coach Hire will take, but it does seem to offer a far better travel option than the 16 seater vehicle emergency option. What it will need is sufficient passenger travelling support from those people who deem this to be an essential bus service.

 

[RELL6L]

That would be an excellent outcome. Well done Kirkby Lonsdale Coach Hire.

 

[IanD]

That would be an excellent outcome. Well done Kirkby Lonsdale Coach Hire.

Let's hope it's not too successful otherwise Transdev et al will swamp the route and it will be bye-bye to another family run firm.

 

[Deerfold]

Let's hope it's not too successful otherwise Transdev et al will swamp the route and it will be bye-bye to another family run firm.

I think that's being rather harsh. Transdev have no recent history of being predatory - they just extended a route, the majority of whch they ran the most frequent service on to where passengers wanted to go.

Their competition, although a family firm, was a company that appeared to be unable to promote their services or let anyone know their prices - as someone who visits Skipton and looks at bus company websites from time to time I've never seen any indication as to why I should have used their services. I take no delight in the end of Pennine, but there's areas they really don't seem to have helped themselves in.

Take one look at a Burnley and Pendle bus and you'll see a brand name that you can google to find out where and when the buses run and how much you'll pay for a day or season ticket.

 

[Tetchytyke]

K&D would have to make any new services excluded from their current fares structure which allows off-peak travel across their network for under 4 pounds.

Transdev Keighley used to do that when they (rather than Burnley and Pendle) operated the Grassington buses on a Sunday.

Pennine's customer-facing presence wasn't brilliant, and there does come a point when that holds a company back. Though I do think Transdev were being predatory. As I said, it's a shame that the regulators can't force a predatory competitor to take on ALL services operated by a company they force into liquidation, rather than cherry-picking the best bits.

 

[Deerfold]

Transdev Keighley used to do that when they (rather than Burnley and Pendle) operated the Grassington buses on a Sunday.

Pennine's customer-facing presence wasn't brilliant, and there does come a point when that holds a company back. Though I do think Transdev were being predatory. As I said, it's a shame that the regulators can't force a predatory competitor to take on ALL services operated by a company they force into liquidation, rather than cherry-picking the best bits.

No, the K&D day ticket was valid to Grassington on a Sunday - remaining valid for the first summer of Burnley and Pendle running the 872.

I used to make use of this regularly.

However their normal tickets are unfortunately not valid on the 883 ( http://www.keighleybus.co.uk/cmsUploads/route/files/883ttOctober2013web.pdf )

 

[abbo1234]

Its a pity Stagecoach wont extend the Lancaster to Ingleton service through to Skipton.I am sure the service would be well used compared to Ribbles old 580 as it is a scenic route and would be well used by Now card holders and enthusiasts with day tickets

 

[NorthernSpirit]

It will be interesting to note how long the discussions between NYCC and Kirkby Lonsdale Coach Hire will take, but it does seem to offer a far better travel option than the 16 seater vehicle emergency option. What it will need is sufficient passenger travelling support from those people who deem this to be an essential bus service.

This is great news, it seems that the split will obviously take place in Settle Market Place so once the 581 arrives in Settle, there'll probably be a five minute waiting time gap before the bus continues to Skipton as very likely service 580.

 

[KendalKing]

http://www.cravenherald.co.uk/news/11243492.Fresh_hopes_for_new_bus_service/?ref=var_0

It seems that Kirkby Lonsdale Coach Hire are in talks to extend their KL to Settle service into Skipton to replace the lost Pennine 580 route.

So KLCH are going to be doing what most of us, have been saying.

The two 33-seater buses, referred to, are two 02-reg'd Plaxton Beaver's, and the 42-seater low floor bus referred to is an R-reg'd Volvo B10BLE, which is used on school services in the Carnforth area, hence why it will not be available until mid July.

Well done Kirkby Lonsdale Coach Hire.

I would like to second that.

 

[Deerfold]

Its a pity Stagecoach wont extend the Lancaster to Ingleton service through to Skipton.I am sure the service would be well used compared to Ribbles old 580 as it is a scenic route and would be well used by Now card holders and enthusiasts with day tickets

But that's largely the problem - NYCC has reduced the rates paid for concessionary cards such that services are not viable even if they run full.

 

[Bovverboy]

Burnley and Pendle used to run the route to Skipton so you could argue that Pennine muscled in in the first place - it depends how far back you go.

Gong back to the early 1970s, the then BCN (Burnley, Colne, & Nelson Joint Transport) operated between Colne and Skipton (service 281, it may have been) but I remember it as a predominantly Saturday service. It was technically joint with Ribble, but I don't recall Ribble actually operating it. I don't know whether or not it lasted into Burnley & Pendle days, but it had certainly gone by the time I started on B & P in 1986.

Ribble ran service X43 hourly between Skipton and Manchester for several decades. It originally operated via the A56 through Bury, but after the opening of the M66 an additional hourly service was introduced between Burnley and Manchester using the motorway - the existing service may have been renumbered 743 at that stage, I'm not sure now. Later, all journeys (except evenings and Sundays) were routed via the motorway, and later still even those journeys were brought into line.

At or about deregulation, Ribble decided they wanted to abandon the Skipton to Colne section. An arrangement was made with Pennine whereby the latter would cover the abandoned section, and (presumably, if they wished) continue no further than Nelson. Pennine already operated a variation of the ex-Laycock service between Skipton and Barnoldswick.

Lancashire County Council put pressure on Pennine to extend their service to Burnley. Pennine initially resisted, citing a reluctance to commit an extra bus, but the real reason was the agreement they had made with Ribble. In due course, however, the service was extended.

At much the same time B & P started an hourly tendered service between Burnley and Skipton, service X29 I think, and this lasted quite a while, perhaps a couple of years or so.

Later Pennine combined their Barnoldswick-Skipton and Burnley-Skipton routes into one service, Burnley to Skipton via Earby and Barnoldswick.

From the mid-1970s onwards, B & P operated between Burnley and Barnoldswick, initially hourly, later half-hourly. Barnoldswick to Earby was hourly, later being combined with the Burnley to Barnoldswick service.

Prior to the mid-1970s BCN operated into Barnoldswick only from Colne.

So Pennine operated Skipton-Barnoldswick and Skipton-Colne by taking over routes from other operators. Only the Colne to Burnley section could be construed as being 'predatory'.

 

[Tetchytyke]

it is a scenic route and would be well used by Now card holders and enthusiasts with day tickets

And that is precisely why they won't do it.

The reimbursement rates- from NYCC, Lancashire CC and Cumbria CC- are appalling. They'd be losing money on it.

 

[blackfive460]

That would be an excellent outcome. Well done Kirkby Lonsdale Coach Hire.

Absolutely!

I used Pennine & KLCH to get to and from Ingleton regularly and the tight connection in either direction at Settle was always a worry (and occasionally missed).
Fingers crossed.

 

[34D]

I think that's being rather harsh. Transdev have no recent history of being predatory

You reckon?

 

[Deerfold]

You reckon?

If I'm wrong do enlighten me.

 

[34D]

If I'm wrong do enlighten me.

Well for starters there's the way Transdev York put pressure on York Pullman's commercial services.

Then there's the direct Wetherby-Harrogate route that ConneXions Buses started that Transdev Harrogate copied with the 77 and then 771.

Transdev Yellow Buses and Shamrock down in Bournemouth?

Plus of course skipton-burnley as discussed in this thread.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Well for starters there's the way Transdev York put pressure on York Pullman's commercial services.

Then there's the direct Wetherby-Harrogate route that ConneXions Buses started that Transdev Harrogate copied with the 77 and then 771.

Transdev Yellow Buses and Shamrock down in Bournemouth?

Plus of course skipton-burnley as discussed in this thread.

So when Transdev decide to introduce a service like Burnley to Skipton, that's predatory? However, when Connexxions introduce Wetherby to Harrogate, then Transdev are the predatory one? That can't cut both ways!

 

[34D]

So when Transdev decide to introduce a service like Burnley to Skipton, that's predatory? However, when Connexxions introduce Wetherby to Harrogate, then Transdev are the predatory one? That can't cut both ways!

No. ConneXions introduced a direct Wetherby-Harrogate service (which Transdev didn't do until they decided to compete) which was a new feature.