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End of Yellow Front Ends?

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Harbornite

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Really? You're advocating a potential increase in risk to track workers for some aesthetic reason? Do you think you know better than those who actually work in the rail industry?

What's wrong with having a trial? As I've said a few times before, there doesn't seem to be an issue in France where trains run without yellow front ends. Anyway, not everyone in the rail industry seems to disagree or else we wouldn't be having this discussion. Oh and by the way, I'm not in any way suggesting that older stock should lose their yellow fronts. As for the statistics, I seem to recall that more staff are killed in road accidents than by trains, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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Fred Dinenage

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http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...ent-colours-following-rssb-safety-rule-change

Some interesting comments on there, most seem to be from rail workers who think it's a bad idea. Not a huge sample admittedly. However, would you rather trust the opinion of those with extensive experience working on the railway, or someone who thinks it might look better / nicer / just like the pretty ones France has?

Why change for change's sake?
 

Harbornite

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http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...ent-colours-following-rssb-safety-rule-change

Some interesting comments on there, most seem to be from rail workers who think it's a bad idea. Not a huge sample admittedly. However, would you rather trust the opinion of those with extensive experience working on the railway, or someone who thinks it might look better / nicer / just like the pretty ones France has?

Why change for change's sake?

I can see merit in both points of view, to be honest. If there was a CLEAR CORRELATION between the number of collisions and whether or not the trains involved have yellow panels, then it would help. It is interesting when one considers that the UK has the safest railway network in Europe. To what extent is this related to the adoption of yellow panels, I do not know. What I would like to know is, on average, how long does it take trackworkers to see the headlights after first seeing the yellow?

Also, I thought I'd share this graph, just out of interest.
Train-fatalities-graphic.-001.jpg
 
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absolutelymilk

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Really? You're advocating a potential increase in risk to track workers for some aesthetic reason? Do you think you know better than those who actually work in the rail industry?

To describe it as just aesthetic reasons misses the point slightly, it all contributes towards the branding of trains. One of the reasons that even in areas where the bus service works well and has got new/refurbished buses is that people prefer to take the train due to its image.

The extra possible deaths that removal of yellow ends might cause is far outweighed by the deaths that it saves by taking cars off the road. The car fatality rate is around 1 per 100 million miles and last year there were about 40 billion rail miles in the UK. So it would only take an increase of 0.25% in passenger traffic to save one car death a year, not to mention those from pollution.
 

Harbornite

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To describe it as just aesthetic reasons misses the point slightly, it all contributes towards the branding of trains. One of the reasons that even in areas where the bus service works well and has got new/refurbished buses is that people prefer to take the train due to its image.

The extra possible deaths that removal of yellow ends might cause is far outweighed by the deaths that it saves by taking cars off the road. The car fatality rate is around 1 per 100 million miles and last year there were about 40 billion rail miles in the UK. So it would only take an increase of 0.25% in passenger traffic to save one car death a year, not to mention those from pollution.


For me, it's not so much about what the passengers think. I'm just curious about the need for them because more staff fatalities were caused by road vehicles in 2014 than by trains. I somehow don't think there'll be a massive rise in train-related staff fatalities due to this legislation.
 

Marklund

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I don't work in the p-way department so I don't have experience from track level. I can say that in quite a few cases where I've been waiting alongside straight stretches of track, I've seen the headlights before the yellow panel, and this was particularly apparent with the Network Rail Loram grinder that I saw at Tamworth on one occasion. One of the only times I recall seeing the panel before the headlights was at Dunster, but that was a heritage DMU with poor headlights. As I've said, I'm not sure how they cope in France, where safety panels are nonexistant, or in Germany where rolling stock only has small white panels.

Lots of experience then. :roll:
Did you miss the bits about heat haze and off the straight?

As for fatalities compared with other EU/EEA countries, track safety standards differ from country to country. Quite how that can be converted in to measure is an unknown.

Reducing the front end visibility and relying on headlights is not a good idea.
The visibility of the class 68's head on is great. But we don't have a perfectly straight railway...
 

Harbornite

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Lots of experience then. :roll:
Did you miss the bits about heat haze and off the straight?

No I didn't, I've taken that into account and I assume that the RSSB have done the same.


As for fatalities compared with other EU/EEA countries, track safety standards differ from country to country. Quite how that can be converted in to measure is an unknown.

Indeed, it would help if there was data for other countries that broke down the number of fatalities into those caused by trains and those that weren't


Reducing the front end visibility and relying on headlights is not a good idea.
The visibility of the class 68's head on is great. But we don't have a perfectly straight railway...

What difference not would having yellow panels make when a train is coming round a curve with high intensity lights? Unfortunately, as we all know, track workers are still occasionally killed by trains despite the presence of a yellow panel. If trains started appearing without these (let's ignore steam for this), then I suspect that track workers would become used it. As has been mentioned before, yellow panels don't make much difference at night. I do really wonder how much difference not having yellow panels would make to the reactions of the lookout staff. Would it really put the lives of staff in that much danger? Trackside safety has improved a lot since the 60's, one of the reasons being the yellow rule, but that wasn't the only reason.

Regarding class 68's, their lights are pretty good IMO although I've yet to see them approaching on a long straight. I think the most effective lights I've seen are those on the loram railgrinders; everything else seems rather weak in comparison.
 
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D365

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The extra possible deaths that removal of yellow ends might cause is far outweighed by the deaths that it saves by taking cars off the road. The car fatality rate is around 1 per 100 million miles and last year there were about 40 billion rail miles in the UK. So it would only take an increase of 0.25% in passenger traffic to save one car death a year, not to mention those from pollution.

Forgive me, for I find the correlation ambiguous, but I don't know anybody who would seem to choose their mode of transport based on the colour of the cab ends...
 

Mugby

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most work sites now have temporary fencing erected to keep track workers the right side of a running line. Speaking with a NR supervisor last week as had him in cab to check the line and he said they (NR) do not do any work on running lines now. seems it's only contractors like QTS etc that still work lineside when the lines are open.

That's rubbish!
 

DarloRich

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most work sites now have temporary fencing erected to keep track workers the right side of a running line. Speaking with a NR supervisor last week as had him in cab to check the line and he said they (NR) do not do any work on running lines now. seems it's only contractors like QTS etc that still work lineside when the lines are open.

i think you might have the wrong end of the wrong stick. You see people working on running lines all the time, walkouts, inspections, small repairs. They aren't fenced off and the people are wearing NR hiviz.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What's wrong with having a trial? As I've said a few times before, there doesn't seem to be an issue in France where trains run without yellow front ends. Anyway, not everyone in the rail industry seems to disagree or else we wouldn't be having this discussion. Oh and by the way, I'm not in any way suggesting that older stock should lose their yellow fronts. As for the statistics, I seem to recall that more staff are killed in road accidents than by trains, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

nothing wrong with a trial although I would prefer both the yellow end AND decent headlights.

I don't work in Pway either but even my limited track access leads me to think the yellow end is a useful safety feature. I can certainly pick up the colour yellow on a gray day easily( and my eyesight isn't great)

I think the contrast is the most important point.
 

absolutelymilk

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Forgive me, for I find the correlation ambiguous, but I don't know anybody who would seem to choose their mode of transport based on the colour of the cab ends...

Of course no one would admit to it, but often people make their choice not purely on how convenient/quick the transport is, but also on the image. Look at how much the "Age of the Train" adverts helped increase passenger numbers.
 

Harbornite

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Of course no one would admit to it, but often people make their choice not purely on how convenient/quick the transport is, but also on the image. Look at how much the "Age of the Train" adverts helped increase passenger numbers.


That is true, but the majority of people won't be influenced by the presence of a yellow panel on the front of a train!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
nothing wrong with a trial although I would prefer both the yellow end AND decent headlights.

I don't work in Pway either but even my limited track access leads me to think the yellow end is a useful safety feature. I can certainly pick up the colour yellow on a gray day easily( and my eyesight isn't great)

I think the contrast is the most important point.

For me, it depends on the actual class of train. In find that Turbostars have poor lights and are a good candidate for yellow panels, same goes for the older class 66s. Pendolinos and Voyagers are better, while the best I've seen are those on the 68s and loram rail grinders. I've yet to see a class 800 in the flesh so I can't personally comment on the effectiveness of their lights.
 

Deepgreen

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Of course no one would admit to it, but often people make their choice not purely on how convenient/quick the transport is, but also on the image. Look at how much the "Age of the Train" adverts helped increase passenger numbers.

I suspect that, even if that were true, the yellow end would detract from the image of a well-designed livery, not enhance it, in the eyes of the public.
 

Islineclear3_1

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I suspect that, even if that were true, the yellow end would detract from the image of a well-designed livery, not enhance it, in the eyes of the public.

And the eyes of some enthusiasts such as myself. Personally I didn't mind the full yellow ends on slam door EMU's but I think the half yellow panel ruined the aesthetics of an all blue or green liveried unit. No yellow for green and full yellow for blue looked great IMHO.

On modern stock that I've seen/got used to, bit of a mixed bag really but I think the balance of yellow ends seems fine IMHO.

But of course, livery/yellow fronts aren't applied for the enthusiasts like me :p
 

Deepgreen

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And the eyes of some enthusiasts such as myself. Personally I didn't mind the full yellow ends on slam door EMU's but I think the half yellow panel ruined the aesthetics of an all blue or green liveried unit. No yellow for green and full yellow for blue looked great IMHO.

On modern stock that I've seen/got used to, bit of a mixed bag really but I think the balance of yellow ends seems fine IMHO.

But of course, livery/yellow fronts aren't applied for the enthusiasts like me :p

It is going to be interesting to see the 5/6BEL unit when it emerges with no yellow panel, but with its cluster of lasers instead!
 

absolutelymilk

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That is true, but the majority of people won't be influenced by the presence of a yellow panel on the front of a train!

Just because the majority aren't, doesn't mean that we shouldn't be doing things to encourage the minority that are!

Of course I'm not saying that it will lead to a significant rise in passengers, but every little helps!
 

Barn

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It is interesting when one considers that the UK has the safest railway network in Europe.

Don't worry, once national standards are replaced with Euronorms we'll have all harmonised to the EU average death rate soon enough. Sadly for us that harmonisation may be in the wrong direction.

I might understand if this applied to HS1 where European trains will serve the route and standardisation is relevant. It is completely irrelevant to other lines on the British mainland.
 

Harbornite

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Just because the majority aren't, doesn't mean that we shouldn't be doing things to encourage the minority that are!

Of course I'm not saying that it will lead to a significant rise in passengers, but every little helps!

Hmm, removing yellow panels will make very little difference indeed! Passengers are more bothered by the punctuality and frequency of trains and whther or not they can find a seat!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Don't worry, once national standards are replaced with Euronorms we'll have all harmonised to the EU average death rate soon enough. Sadly for us that harmonisation may be in the wrong direction.

I might understand if this applied to HS1 where European trains will serve the route and standardisation is relevant. It is completely irrelevant to other lines on the British mainland.

And what is this "EU aveage death rate"? I don't think we'll be seeing a rise in the no. of trackworkwers killed by trains as more trains are introduced sans yellow. I think it's scaremongering to suggest otherwise.
 
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Clip

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Lots of experience then. :roll:
Did you miss the bits about heat haze and off the straight?

..

Did you miss the bit about the actual standard and positioning of the lights on the train or did you just jump in feet first without reading any of the literature surrounding this move?

And can you and other pway guys on here actually say for certain that you wont be able to see trains now with the new standard of lighting and no yellow front ends? If so can you demonstrate to us all where you took part in these trials in the uk mainland to come to such a forthright decision?

Not having a go here at any of my colleagues but I would be interested to know the answer to the above for my own peice of mind that people are stating facts rather than opinion.

Thanks.
 

Trog

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I'm just curious about the need for them because more staff fatalities were caused by road vehicles in 2014 than by trains.

But would the number of those accidents have been reduced if road vehicles had yellow ends like the trains????
 

Harbornite

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But would the number of those accidents have been reduced if road vehicles had yellow ends like the trains????

No. http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/4815.aspx


I had assumed that the cause of these fatalities was trackworkers being involved in collisions with motor vehicles at worksites, but this doesn't seem to be the case. On that note, white is a good choice of colour for vehicles because it is bright, no yellow panels are needed. Fitting sirens to these vehicles wouldn't be a good idea because it could potentially block out the noise of trains. Nevertheless, that article doesn't suggest to me that there's the potential for a massive rise in fatalities due to the introduction of trains that don't have yellow panels.
 

Harbornite

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If you scroll up you'll see a big colourful bar chart showing exactly that...


My bad. We won't be reaching that level, even if more and more trains are introduced without yellow panels. Anyhow, the UK's excellent safety record isn't solely the result of the adoption of yellow panels.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Can you even see the yellow at night?

Probably at close range, but not before the headlights become visible.
 
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Trog

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No. http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/4815.aspx
Nevertheless, that article doesn't suggest to me that there's the potential for a massive rise in fatalities due to the introduction of trains that don't have yellow panels.

I think just one extra fatality would be enough if it was you that got run over.

I repeat as the front of the unit has to be painted anyway, do it in yellow as it costs nothing. It then follows that this is value for money even if it only stops one accident a century.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
No. http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/4815.aspx


I had assumed that the cause of these fatalities was trackworkers being involved in collisions with motor vehicles at worksites, but this doesn't seem to be the case. On that note, white is a good choice of colour for vehicles because it is bright, no yellow panels are needed. Fitting sirens to these vehicles wouldn't be a good idea because it could potentially block out the noise of trains. Nevertheless, that article doesn't suggest to me that there's the potential for a massive rise in fatalities due to the introduction of trains that don't have yellow panels.

As the road accidents took place away from the railway what has sirens blocking out the noise of trains got to do with it, it would also probably be illegal? Do you not remember how a British Rail, BT and some others that used vehicles in a way that involved a lot of parking in odd places at the road side all once used yellow vehicles? This was because they were easier to see, yellow being almost as good as white at night, while giving a colour contrast in mist and virtually glowing in sunshine.

Surely a report that shows there were very few accidents involving trains does show that there is a potential for a massive increase in fatalities, if there were already a lot of them it would be harder to achieve the same proportional increases.
 

najaB

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I repeat as the front of the unit has to be painted anyway, do it in yellow as it costs nothing. It then follows that this is value for money even if it only stops one accident a century.
This is true. Even factoring in the extra steps in painting it (masking, etc) a yellow front end is a free safety improvement. It's hard to see why people are against them.
 

Harbornite

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As the road accidents took place away from the railway what has sirens blocking out the noise of trains got to do with it, it would also probably be illegal?

I was trying to say that if the road accidents were collisions at worksites, then having sirens would be one way of warning workers. However, this measure isn't necessary.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Surely a report that shows there were very few accidents involving trains does show that there is a potential for a massive increase in fatalities, if there were already a lot of them it would be harder to achieve the same proportional increases.

Possibly. However, the report infers that improved working practices have ensured that staff are so well prepared for working alongside operational railway lines that I don't think the introduction of non-yellow panel trains will cause a massive increase in fatalities. If anything, not having yellow panels could encourage lookout staff to become more vigilant and alert, which isn't a bad thing at all.
 

absolutelymilk

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Has anyone on here been involved in an incident where a train was only spotted at the last second? If so, what happened and would a lack of yellow ends have meant that instead of only having a few seconds to get clear of the line, someone would have actually been hit?
 
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