End (through) doors on multiple units

[BanburyBlue]

Hi,

Why are end coach connecting doors not popular? Obviously are popular on the old Southern network, but they haven't really made it very far north and west of London.

There are many operators who regularly double up units (Chiltern for example), where it would seem sensible to have end connections through the train.

Just curious.

 

[sprinterguy]

...but they haven't really made it very far north and west of London.

Eh?

Corridor connections are prevalent on the vast majority of the Sprinter fleets that are widespread across the English provinces, Wales and Scotland, and in the cases of the latter two are often used to good effect on joining/splitting trains.

They can also be found on the West Midlands Trains Desiro fleet, which operate as far north as Birmingham, Crewe and Liverpool, and on modern Scotrail EMUs (Their older 318s also had them for many years, too). London Midland also replaced a primarily cab-connectionless diesel fleet on the Snow Hill lines with a fleet of corridor fitted class 172s.

The main location where they are lacking is on post-privatisation regional diesel stock, which in many cases rarely operate paired up anyway (though they probably should!).

 

[NSEFAN]

In the modern world, it's seemingly difficult (but not impossible) to build trains which both meet the crash worthiness standards and have good driver visibility with an end corridor connection, though the class 385 units show that it can be done.

Historically on Mark 1 and 2 based units, there was probably less portion working of multiple units in the other regions compared to the Southern.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Not sure I agree that they haven't made it far North and West of London, with plenty of units with them from both BR days and since (172s, 350s). The issue as you head North is the lack of use those doors get due to units not working in multiple as often.
They're becoming rarer in new orders due to more stringent standards on crashworthiness, which makes the design of the gangways more tricky. This also has a detrimental effect on the driver's view from the cab.
The appearance of the 380s and especially 385s demonstrate the engineering gymnastics required to create an end gangway that meet the current standards.

 

[Domh245]

and have good driver visibility with an end corridor connection, though the class 385 units show that it can be done.

There seems to be some contention over that, and quite rightly so if you look at the cab! (1) (2)

 

[NSEFAN]

There seems to be some contention over that, and quite rightly so if you look at the cab! (1) (2)

*good enough to meet standards, then

 

[BanburyBlue]

Eh?

Corridor connections are prevalent on the vast majority of the Sprinter fleets that are widespread across the English provinces, Wales and Scotland, and in the cases of the latter two are often used to good effect on joining/splitting trains.

They can also be found on the West Midlands Trains Desiro fleet, which operate as far north as Birmingham, Crewe and Liverpool, and on modern Scotrail EMUs (Their older 318s also had them for many years, too). London Midland also replaced a primarily cab-connectionless diesel fleet on the Snow Hill lines with a fleet of corridor fitted class 172s.

The main location where they are lacking is on post-privatisation regional diesel stock, which in many cases rarely operate paired up anyway (though they probably should!).

Well, we can all have have off days - D’oh!! I’d certainly forgotten about the various Sprinters. I did remember the new units on LM.

I guess living in Chiltern land I don’t see corridor units that often - need to get out more.

 

[brel york]

What was last built unit with emergency end door , 319 ?

 

[Agent_Squash]

What was last built unit with emergency end door , 319 ?

The 717s will have them.

 

[brel york]

Because of tunnel working I presume

 

[sprinterguy]

I guess living in Chiltern land I don’t see corridor units that often - need to get out more.

In terms of units native to "Banburyshire", I'd imagine that it's historical coincidence as much as anything: Adtranz, as was, had developed a non-gangwayed cab for their Turbostar/Electrostar fleets before a gangwayed one, and notably even that wasn't finalised at the time that the original batch of class 168/0s were being constructed for Chiltern; and given that the original batches of 3/4-car class 168s were replacing, as far as I am aware, primarily 3-car class 165s on longer distance Banbury and Birmingham workings, which didn't have corridor connections themselves, gangwayed cabs have never been considered necessary, or possibly been agreed with the drivers.

 

[Ianno87]

What was last built unit with emergency end door , 319 ?

Don't 378s have them?

 

[brel york]

Yes they do

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The new Merseyrail units will have them too. Off-centre on the renders IIRC.

 

[xc170]

There seems to be some contention over that, and quite rightly so if you look at the cab! (1) (2)

Feel for the drivers of these, how can a view that poor pass modern safety regulations?

 

[Cherry_Picker]

There are a couple of locations on the Chilterns (High Wycombe, Anyho) where units with corridor connections in the cab have to do lower speeds due to signal sighting issues where the track has a sweeping curve, I think you need 8 seconds viewing time of a signal under current guidelines and a tiny window in the cab can't always offer that. No corridor connection stock is currently booked to run over these locations but I believe the speeds are such because 172s are route cleared all the way into Marylebone and unlike the Chiltern fleet, most 172s, including the ones which share track with Chiltern units in the West Midlands do have the corridor connection.

Presumably there are more examples of locations across the network with mixed traffic where corridor units have to go slower due to them offering poor visibility compared to units which actually have a decent sized window?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The trend towards full cabs was not followed by Abellio for their WMT Aventras or Civitys.
Unlike previous orders for these types, including Abellio's own for GA.

 

[Domh245]

Feel for the drivers of these, how can a view that poor pass modern safety regulations?

I decided to look this up, under the LOC-PAS-TSI, clause 4.2.9.1.3.1, it says

"The driver's cab shall be designed to allow the driver at his seated driving position a clear and unobstructed line of sight in order to distinguish fixed signals set to both the left and right of a straight track, and in curves with a radius of 300 m or more, under the conditions defined in Appendix F."

Appendix F then goes on to talk about something defined in UIC 651, which I can't access, but presumably sets out things like the distance from which the signals are distinguishable, etc. Evidently then, this will be meeting the regulations, but I dare say it'll be an "only just" meeting, rather than an exceeding.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The trend towards full cabs was not followed by Abellio for their WMT Aventras or Civitys.
Unlike previous orders for these types, including Abellio's own for GA.

Possibly because, with no fixed 10 car sets, the WCML ones will spent a lot of their time in multiple. Also because there is no plan for WCML DOO, the guard will need to walk through. Add to that the heavy use of portion working on the south WCML where passengers need to move to the correct set.

 

[BestWestern]

Feel for the drivers of these, how can a view that poor pass modern safety regulations?

You have to consider that, unlike a road vehicle driver, a train driver is required only to see the track immediately ahead of him and the signals. Essentially, a train is driven on the basis of knowing where the next signal is then reacting to it accordingly. It's quite shocking how poor the view is out of the windscreen at night on something fitted with old school BR-era light clusters, as opposed to the new super bright lamps fitted in recent years. You can see very, very little. In fog or snow you can see even less. Indeed, sometimes practically nothing. A decent view of what's going on either side of the line is nice, but not essential!

 

[bavvo]

I had my first trip on GWRs shiny new electrostars the other day and was surprised (pleasantly) that they had end doors so you could walk through the whole train. Certainly better for passengers. What are they like for drivers?

 

[Starmill]

I had my first trip on GWRs shiny new electrostars the other day and was surprised (pleasantly) that they had end doors so you could walk through the whole train. Certainly better for passengers. What are they like for drivers?

Nearly all of the Electrostar range offers this feature, although for some reason not the c2c fleet. Class 378s are an exception too as they don't need to be coupled in passenger service. The other is the very unusual class 376.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Scotrail's 156s also have end door corridors when connected up to multiple sets.

 

[Class172]

Presumably there are more examples of locations across the network with mixed traffic where corridor units have to go slower due to them offering poor visibility compared to units which actually have a decent sized window?

I may have the reason completely wrong, but I think the up starting signal at Droitwich Spa (DS71) was moved to the LHS of the track a few years ago due to complaints from drivers of 172s regarding poor visibility of the signal when approaching from Kidderminster — the signal used to sit on the RHS of the down line.

 

[Kneedown]

Certainly better for passengers. What are they like for drivers?

In short, horrific!
Draughty doors, torrents of water flooding in during rain, even snow on occasion. Claustrophobic cab with little legroom and highly impaired view which is made worse on older stock by the addition of various devices and systems mounted around the windscreen (DRA, Sand button, GSMR radio etc)
They're ok on shortish hops, but you rapidly lose the will to live when in the cab for many hours at a time.

 

[bramling]

In short, horrific!
Draughty doors, torrents of water flooding in during rain, even snow on occasion. Claustrophobic cab with little legroom and highly impaired view which is made worse on older stock by the addition of various devices and systems mounted around the windscreen (DRA, Sand button, GSMR radio etc)
They're ok on shortish hops, but you rapidly lose the will to live when in the cab for many hours at a time.

From a passenger perspective I think they're a little over-rated. A nice to have, but even on routes where dividing and joining occurs it's still not the end of the world not having the facility to walk through. GN managed perfectly well with the 365s dividing at Cambridge on a routine basis. The main thing is to ensure the passenger information is satisfactory to ensure people join the right part of the train in the first place.

The bigger issue is perhaps on regional routes where the guard needs to get through the whole train to do revenue duties. Working around that is much more of an issue.

 

[Bromley boy]

Nearly all of the Electrostar range offers this feature, although for some reason not the c2c fleet. Class 378s are an exception too as they don't need to be coupled in passenger service. The other is the very unusual class 376.

The "full" cabs on 376s are considerably more spacious than 375s due to the connecting doors. The 375 cabs seem somewhat claustrophobic in comparison.

 

[capital12]

In short, horrific!
Draughty doors, torrents of water flooding in during rain, even snow on occasion. Claustrophobic cab with little legroom and highly impaired view which is made worse on older stock by the addition of various devices and systems mounted around the windscreen (DRA, Sand button, GSMR radio etc)
They're ok on shortish hops, but you rapidly lose the will to live when in the cab for many hours at a time.

I never normally found them a problem in a Desiro to be honest - the only issue was when some lazy drivers hadn’t bothered locking both sections properly and then it was bloody noisy/draughty!

The trouble was you didn’t realise until you’d got a bit of speed up and then if you weren’t booked to stopped anywhere soon you hoped for an unexpected red somewhere!! I got in the habit of checking them each time I took on a train in the end.

 

[Kneedown]

I never normally found them a problem in a Desiro to be honest - the only issue was when some lazy drivers hadn’t bothered locking both sections properly and then it was bloody noisy/draughty!



The trouble was you didn’t realise until you’d got a bit of speed up and then if you weren’t booked to stopped anywhere soon you hoped for an unexpected red somewhere!! I got in the habit of checking them each time I took on a train in the end.

The 153/6/8's we work have been leaky from new. It's a rare event to have a dry floor, and indeed is the reason a lot of us have a carabiner attached to our bags, to clip tjem to something above floor level.
It has been my habit to check the doors on taking over a unit for many years, ever since one few open at 90mph on the Up Fast decending Stoke Bank. The suction effect towards the open doorway is immense and quite scary!