Energy costs of a journey

[Why]

Whilst on a trip the other day I was wondering the costs of just the electricity used to power my train from point A to B?
I know roughly costs for say floodlights for a football match (non league around £40-£80) not a clue on anything else!!

I realise huge differences in Electric, Diesel or whatever power, loading's and Routes ..... excluding train access charges, lease depreciation etc etc

Just wondered if any of you knowledgeable bods had any examples ?

Thanks

 

[eastwestdivide]

There's another thread on here which might give you a basis on which to start:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-much-does-it-cost-to-power-a-train.156878/

and a search online for train electricity cost per passenger km should point you in the right direction for some research

 

[boxerdog]

Whilst on a trip the other day I was wondering the costs of just the electricity used to power my train from point A to B?
I know roughly costs for say floodlights for a football match (non league around £40-£80) not a clue on anything else!!

I realise huge differences in Electric, Diesel or whatever power, loading's and Routes ..... excluding train access charges, lease depreciation etc etc

Just wondered if any of you knowledgeable bods had any examples ?

Thanks

I think it used to cost circa £250 for Birmingham - Liverpool on a Class 350 (this is from 'some' years ago)

 

[kc_]

Is there any difference in power consumption of 2 EMU sets run coupled vs separately?

 

[robbeech]

Is there any difference in power consumption of 2 EMU sets run coupled vs separately?

Things to add to the calculation will be Braking effort changes with momentum, whether you can coast further etc.
Differences in momentum for regenerative braking.
Aerodynamics of the train and resistance differences with only having 1 "front" instead of 2.
Whether either of these are significant or just nominal figures i do not know.

 

[Requeststop]

I'd be more interested in the about of heat energy it takes to produce the diesel and is burned off by a train. The heat energy that goes off into the atmosphere; and compare it to the heat energy it takes to produce the electricity to power a train and the heat energy that the electric train produces. Electric engines get hot too.

Lets takes a journey from London to Edinburgh by a diesel service and compare it to the same journey by an electric service.

To me the global warming argument is not just about CO2 emmissions but also about the amount of heat produced from the production and use of the fuels. That heat energy all goes into the atmosphere to!

 

[Starmill]

Heat energy and the climate change are not the same concept. Large refrigerators, for example, might not be terribly useful at amelioration of climate change...

 

[Bald Rick]

I'd be more interested in the about of heat energy it takes to produce the diesel and is burned off by a train. The heat energy that goes off into the atmosphere; and compare it to the heat energy it takes to produce the electricity to power a train and the heat energy that the electric train produces. Electric engines get hot too.

Lets takes a journey from London to Edinburgh by a diesel service and compare it to the same journey by an electric service.

To me the global warming argument is not just about CO2 emmissions but also about the amount of heat produced from the production and use of the fuels. That heat energy all goes into the atmosphere to!

Ultimately almost all the energy used in powering a train ends up as heat. The exception is where electric trains use regenerative braking. The issue is how efficient is the source of energy before it is converted to heat.

Anyway, back to the OP. Let’s take an 11 coach Pendolino travelling from London to Birmingham., and make some broad assumptions. It draws 6MW at full power, but will be doing that for perhaps only 10-15 minutes of the whole journey. Most of the time, say about 50 minutes, it will be at around 2/3 power, and a not insignificant time it will be on low power, coasting or braking (with regen braking), say about 15-20 minutes. With an allowance for the regen, it will draw perhaps 4MWh. The cost to operators of traction electricity is about 10p/kWh, so a one way trip will be about £400. All very rough figures, for example only.

 

[robbeech]

Do you have any figures for, say a 10 car Voyager doing the exact same journey. Do you know what their fuel consumption is like?

It's an interesting topic.
I wonder if a London to Edinburgh ECML journey has the same difference in cost between a 91 and an HST as a 9 car 80* on electric and an 80* on diesel. It's more engines, but smaller, and at least a couple of decades of further R&D (based on the MTU engines) to make them more efficient.

 

[Bald Rick]

Do you have any figures for, say a 10 car Voyager doing the exact same journey. Do you know what their fuel consumption is like?

It's an interesting topic.
I wonder if a London to Edinburgh ECML journey has the same difference in cost between a 91 and an HST as a 9 car 80* on electric and an 80* on diesel. It's more engines, but smaller, and at least a couple of decades of further R&D (based on the MTU engines) to make them more efficient.

No, but I do know that an HST+9 can get run KX to Aberdeen and back on less than two full tanks of diesel, ie less than 2000gallons.

 

[Requeststop]

Heat energy and the climate change are not the same concept. Large refrigerators, for example, might not be terribly useful at amelioration of climate change...

Sorry but I have to totally disagree. The combustion of fossil fuels gives of Heat Energy - that heat energy goes into the atmosphere. Look at the law of the conservation of energy. If you believe that heat energy passing into the atmosphere and climate change is not the same, then the earth is flat.

Take the example of say 1958 where there were say half a million road vehicles on the road daily and compare it to today's figure of thirty eight million. The increase of heat and climate change is exactly comparable with the pouring of Carbon dioxide from all those vehicles. Stick your hand on the exhaust of a car and tell me its not hot and then tell me where the heat from that exhaust goes. Then tell me that the heat from all those vehicles does not play a part in Climate change. I'm ending that argument here before I upset the moderators.

To get back to my original question. I'm interested in the generation of energy and the heat energy produced from two journeys London-Edinburgh from a diesel powered engine and an electric powered engine, and the energy and heat energy in producing both the diesel fuel and the electric fuel.

 

[jfowkes]

Take the example of say 1958 where there were say half a million road vehicles on the road daily and compare it to today's figure of thirty eight million. The increase of heat and climate change is exactly comparable with the pouring of Carbon dioxide from all those vehicles. Stick your hand on the exhaust of a car and tell me its not hot and then tell me where the heat from that exhaust goes. Then tell me that the heat from all those vehicles does not play a part in Climate change. I'm ending that argument here before I upset the moderators.

The extra output of heat from human activity is small compared to that trapped by climate change. This is this best link I could find with a small amount of searching: https://skepticalscience.com/waste-heat-global-warming.htm

tl;dr - All the heat human energy use eventually makes is about 1% of the heat trapped by greenhouse gases.

 

[ComUtoR]

To me the global warming argument is not just about CO2 emmissions but also about the amount of heat produced from the production and use of the fuels. That heat energy all goes into the atmosphere to!

But how far back in the chain do you go ? How much energy does it take to manufacture a DMU compared to an EMU ? Electrification still has a cost to the environment and all that juice still needs to be generated from somewhere.

 

[modernrail]

The extra output of heat from human activity is small compared to that trapped by climate change. This is this best link I could find with a small amount of searching: https://skepticalscience.com/waste-heat-global-warming.htm

tl;dr - All the heat human energy use eventually makes is about 1% of the heat trapped by greenhouse gases.

I have always wondered what the answer is to this one so thank you for that!

 

[al78]

Sorry but I have to totally disagree. The combustion of fossil fuels gives of Heat Energy - that heat energy goes into the atmosphere. Look at the law of the conservation of energy. If you believe that heat energy passing into the atmosphere and climate change is not the same, then the earth is flat.

It isn't. Anthropogenic climate change is caused by the increase of greenhouse cases, which affect the radiative properties of the atmosphere, essentially reducing the radiative heat loss to space, so the planet warms to restore equilibrium. You are talking about waste heat from combustion or operation of machinery, which no-one denies exists, but has a negligable impact on global temperature.

https://skepticalscience.com/Waste-heat-vs-greenhouse-warming.html

 

[mavsk]

Is there any difference in power consumption of 2 EMU sets run coupled vs separately?

In the rules for EC4T charges for units without meters there are factors for this. Can't remember them off the top of my head but it's something like 1.8 times a single unit for two units in multiple.

 

[al78]

But how far back in the chain do you go ? How much energy does it take to manufacture a DMU compared to an EMU ? Electrification still has a cost to the environment and all that juice still needs to be generated from somewhere.

That is embodied energy, and is not insignificant, and is why reducing consumption is advocated. Electrifying the power grid is also desirable to reduce the carbon footprint. When it comes to reducing anthropogenic emissions, it doesn't come down to one action aimed at one source, it comes down to many actions to tackle the primary causes (hence I have no time for whataboutism).