Enforcement of the new rules on social distancing, unnecessary journeys etc.

404250

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Is going out walking/cycling/driving to collect food from one of the numerous places offering takeaways allowed? Could be independent kebab shop, KFC, Italian restaurant, Indian, cafe etc.

People don't need this food and can easily get by with an infrequent large food shop. Surely collecting a takeaway wouldn't be classed as an essential journey? Same issue with using Homebase etc that are now open. Guidance needs changing if the govt want us to use these businesses whilst sticking to the rules of when to leave the home.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Is going out walking/cycling/driving to collect food from one of the numerous places offering takeaways allowed? Could be independent kebab shop, KFC, Italian restaurant, Indian, cafe etc.

People don't need this food and can easily get by with an infrequent large food shop. Surely collecting a takeaway wouldn't be classed as an essential journey? Same issue with using Homebase etc that are now open. Guidance needs changing if the govt want us to use these businesses whilst sticking to the rules of when to leave the home.
All food is considered essential, the law says food rather than groceries. So yes, it is allowed. Though you'd be pushing it if you drove 100 miles for it, the intent is to stay local.

With regard to B&Q, Homebase etc these are open so you can obtain "supplies for the essential upkeep, maintenance and functioning of the household", such as materials to repair something.

This is the relevant bit of the law:
 

jkkne

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Is going out walking/cycling/driving to collect food from one of the numerous places offering takeaways allowed? Could be independent kebab shop, KFC, Italian restaurant, Indian, cafe etc.

People don't need this food and can easily get by with an infrequent large food shop. Surely collecting a takeaway wouldn't be classed as an essential journey? Same issue with using Homebase etc that are now open. Guidance needs changing if the govt want us to use these businesses whilst sticking to the rules of when to leave the home.
I'd say it is allowed on the basis of I believe the initial thinking of these places being open was to
A) Reduce pressure on supermarkets
B) Have somewhere that key workers could at least grab food once supermarkets closed or were inaccessible due to queues etc.

I think as long as a business can operate safely with social distancing (for Staff and Customers) then it should be allowed to open because in the short to medium term this is going to be our new reality. This of course requires a bit of common sense from both the employer and customer which the latter may lack!
 

Bantamzen

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I'd say it is allowed on the basis of I believe the initial thinking of these places being open was to
A) Reduce pressure on supermarkets
B) Have somewhere that key workers could at least grab food once supermarkets closed or were inaccessible due to queues etc.

I think as long as a business can operate safely with social distancing (for Staff and Customers) then it should be allowed to open because in the short to medium term this is going to be our new reality. This of course requires a bit of common sense from both the employer and customer which the latter may lack!
Some of the takeouts in my area have used a "Click & Collect" system of ordering online (or phoning), being given a pick up time for customers to keep some distancing possible. Other like a local chippy have gone further and started delivering (a service I've used several times now).

Either way being able to have the odd treat helps keep up moral for people stuck at home for 95% of their time. There does seem to be some people around these discussions that are determined to make life as miserable as possible, for as many people as possible. ;)
 

underbank

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Is going out walking/cycling/driving to collect food from one of the numerous places offering takeaways allowed? Could be independent kebab shop, KFC, Italian restaurant, Indian, cafe etc.
Yes, even moreso that the Govt announced planning permission restrictions were being eased to allow pubs and restaurants to offer a takeaway service, which in normal times, they'd have need to get planning permission/change of use, to do so. So, that's actually a specific Govt intervention allowing/encouraging pubs/restaurants to offer a takeaway service. How much more "allowed" would you want. It's specific and open, not just people taking advantage of a loophole!
 

jkkne

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Some of the takeouts in my area have used a "Click & Collect" system of ordering online (or phoning), being given a pick up time for customers to keep some distancing possible. Other like a local chippy have gone further and started delivering (a service I've used several times now).

Either way being able to have the odd treat helps keep up moral for people stuck at home for 95% of their time. There does seem to be some people around these discussions that are determined to make life as miserable as possible, for as many people as possible. ;)
Yes it looks like that's the plan for McDonalds and Greggs etc to reopen (remembering they only closed voluntarily too)

I think the longer this goes on we'll move from 'Should this shop be open' to 'can this shop open safely?' as the main barometer
 

Bletchleyite

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Yes it looks like that's the plan for McDonalds and Greggs etc to reopen (remembering they only closed voluntarily too)

I think the longer this goes on we'll move from 'Should this shop be open' to 'can this shop open safely?' as the main barometer
We're slowly slipping that way, which means the Government can watch what's happening without having to take the discredit (!) if it goes wrong.
 

404250

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I've got absolutely no issue with people using takeaways or DIY shops. My issue is with the guidance that doesn't appear to allow their use. DIY shops are allowed for urgent repairs like fence fixing but 95% of people using them won't be doing repairs. Takeaways are allowed because you are shopping for food.
But the overriding message is "stay indoors and only go out when absolutely necessary". This needs changing.
 

Bantamzen

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Yes it looks like that's the plan for McDonalds and Greggs etc to reopen (remembering they only closed voluntarily too)

I think the longer this goes on we'll move from 'Should this shop be open' to 'can this shop open safely?' as the main barometer
Indeed. Interestingly Austria have just announced a reduction of social distancing from 3m to 1m with the relaxation of small store closures later this week, and restaurants being allowed to reopen in a couple of weeks. Perhaps a model for ourselves moving forward?
 

Meerkat

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Could be changed to 2m, 1m if mitigated (ie masks), but that is probably best kept to workers, not general public.
 

Bantamzen

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Could be changed to 2m, 1m if mitigated (ie masks), but that is probably best kept to workers, not general public.
Any reason why it wouldn't be suitable for the public? 1 metre is the recommended distance by the WHO, and as smaller stores open maintaining queues of 2m distance between stores next to each other will become increasingly difficult.
 

Bletchleyite

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Any reason why it wouldn't be suitable for the public? 1 metre is the recommended distance by the WHO, and as smaller stores open maintaining queues of 2m distance between stores next to each other will become increasingly difficult.
This might well work. Much about masks is not proven, but it's certainly true that a mask is equivalent to having a handkerchief ready when you cough or sneeze, which most people won't have. People who are coughing and sneezing because of suspected COVID should be at home isolating, but there are plenty of other people who cough and sneeze as a matter of course anyway - asthmatics, smokers and people with hay fever, for example - and sometimes they aren't quick enough to cover their mouth and nose to block it.
 

Mag_seven

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We appear to be drifting off topic again. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the enforcement of the new rules on social distancing. We have threads that are discussing facemasks here and exit strategy here.

Please think about what is the most appropriate thread to post your thoughts on before you post.

Thanks. :)
 

Jamesrob637

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Could be a good way to clear the air with exes, doing a walk at 2 metres. You're following all rules if you keep the necessary distance and there is only you and him/her. Might make things more pleasant when the world gets back to normal, dare I say even rekindle a few relationships.
 

GodAtum

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I've been enforcing social distancing with my stick. As usual commuters are crowding around doors to board a tube, so I am having to push them away as they try to shove themselves on-board.
 
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I was listening to a call from a blind/partially sighted man on our local radio phone in this afternoon he was making a point that I brought up before - he said that because of his sight problem he cannot drive but he was very upset that he was refused travel on a train because he was trying to make a journey to a place to exercise or go for a walk he said because he does not have access to a car it was discriminatory against people with disabilities that could not drive for medical reasons and he specifically mentioned the Equality Act (used to be DDA) and was going to write to his MP or even think about legal challenge the interviewer did bring up the public health reasons for the current restrictions. He also mentioned the member of rail staff or BTP? that refused him travel said that it would be the same after the partial relaxation of the lockdown with going outside for unlimited exercise now being permitted and driving for exercise now permitted, he said that it was not fair that people could drive anywhere in England for exercise and outdoor activities but could not travel by train if they did not have access to a car to do the same. I do have a question - I was aware that new government guidelines re the use of PT was released this week which AFAIK advices avoid public transport where you can (e.g. if you have a car available) and try to travel outside the peak but guidelines they are they are advisory not law and the actual regulations re the lockdown restrictions have now been amended to say you can travel outside your house for unlimited exercise AFAIK it does not mention PT so there is now legislation in force saying you cannot use train services I do have a question in the current circumstances what discretion do either members of railway staff or BTP have to refuse travel in the current circumstances and I am concerned once visiting friends and relatives is permitted this could become more of an issue if not resolved - I plan to visit my friend by train again a journey that I normally take of a weekend surely they should allow this sort of travel at weekends as their is a lot less work related travel otherwise on a close to normal timetable those trains would be virtually carrying around fresh air!
 

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I was listening to a call from a blind/partially sighted man on our local radio phone in this afternoon he was making a point that I brought up before - he said that because of his sight problem he cannot drive but he was very upset that he was refused travel on a train because he was trying to make a journey to a place to exercise or go for a walk he said because he does not have access to a car it was discriminatory against people with disabilities that could not drive for medical reasons and he specifically mentioned the Equality Act (used to be DDA) and was going to write to his MP or even think about legal challenge the interviewer did bring up the public health reasons for the current restrictions. He also mentioned the member of rail staff or BTP? that refused him travel said that it would be the same after the partial relaxation of the lockdown with going outside for unlimited exercise now being permitted and driving for exercise now permitted, he said that it was not fair that people could drive anywhere in England for exercise and outdoor activities but could not travel by train if they did not have access to a car to do the same. I do have a question - I was aware that new government guidelines re the use of PT was released this week which AFAIK advices avoid public transport where you can (e.g. if you have a car available) and try to travel outside the peak but guidelines they are they are advisory not law and the actual regulations re the lockdown restrictions have now been amended to say you can travel outside your house for unlimited exercise AFAIK it does not mention PT so there is now legislation in force saying you cannot use train services I do have a question in the current circumstances what discretion do either members of railway staff or BTP have to refuse travel in the current circumstances and I am concerned once visiting friends and relatives is permitted this could become more of an issue if not resolved - I plan to visit my friend by train again a journey that I normally take of a weekend surely they should allow this sort of travel at weekends as their is a lot less work related travel otherwise on a close to normal timetable those trains would be virtually carrying around fresh air!
I hope the gentleman does go to the courts. It needs to be done.
 

LowLevel

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There are plenty of issues when you dig deep into it. A lot of visually impaired passengers I know have their own mental maps and these will be severely disrupted by things like the one way system. They may also struggle to negotiate the provisions on board trains. A lot of staff are rightly or wrongly extremely reticent to provide passenger assistance at the moment as they don't want to be in direct personal contact with anyone else.

Is travelling somewhere by train because you want a different range of leisure locations to exercise really essential travel even if you can't drive, whether it's due to poor vision or just not having a licence?

It is a fine tightrope to walk at the moment and I imagine the railway is technically on the wrong side of the law as with other industries.

We are still, albeit perhaps reluctantly at an individual level, providing passenger assistance services to people for things like trips to hospitals and shopping.

Personally I've tried to approach this in a common sense way - if someone needs personal contact I wear a short sleeved shirt so I can make skin to skin contact rather than clothes so it can easily be washed later. I ask the person involved to stay away from me where possible and only get close when I have to. I wear a fresh pair of gloves and throw them away immediately afterwards. I will still help people who need it.

Ultimately if someone is making a leisure journey to exercise personally I wouldn't dream of stopping them but I would expect them to provide their own sighted guide if that was what was required to allow them to travel safely rather than getting the railway's staff involved.

The way the railway is being run at the moment will cause problems for people with disabilities, there is no question about it, and it needs to be approached in a sensitive manner both to keep the railway and it's users safe and make it accessible where necessary.

It's something I've been pondering today while working in a face mask - I'm painfully aware that normally I do a lot of smiling to put people at ease and also allow them to lip read if necessary and this isn't possible.
 

sjpowermac

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There are plenty of issues when you dig deep into it. A lot of visually impaired passengers I know have their own mental maps and these will be severely disrupted by things like the one way system. They may also struggle to negotiate the provisions on board trains. A lot of staff are rightly or wrongly extremely reticent to provide passenger assistance at the moment as they don't want to be in direct personal contact with anyone else.

Is travelling somewhere by train because you want a different range of leisure locations to exercise really essential travel even if you can't drive, whether it's due to poor vision or just not having a licence?

It is a fine tightrope to walk at the moment and I imagine the railway is technically on the wrong side of the law as with other industries.

We are still, albeit perhaps reluctantly at an individual level, providing passenger assistance services to people for things like trips to hospitals and shopping.

Personally I've tried to approach this in a common sense way - if someone needs personal contact I wear a short sleeved shirt so I can make skin to skin contact rather than clothes so it can easily be washed later. I ask the person involved to stay away from me where possible and only get close when I have to. I wear a fresh pair of gloves and throw them away immediately afterwards. I will still help people who need it.

Ultimately if someone is making a leisure journey to exercise personally I wouldn't dream of stopping them but I would expect them to provide their own sighted guide if that was what was required to allow them to travel safely rather than getting the railway's staff involved.

The way the railway is being run at the moment will cause problems for people with disabilities, there is no question about it, and it needs to be approached in a sensitive manner both to keep the railway and it's users safe and make it accessible where necessary.

It's something I've been pondering today while working in a face mask - I'm painfully aware that normally I do a lot of smiling to put people at ease and also allow them to lip read if necessary and this isn't possible.
That’s a very sensitive, kind and thoughtful post, lovely to read.
 

yorksrob

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BBC news has reported that Italy has lifted national travel restrictions from today.

It didn't mention anything about Italian ministers saying it was people's "civic duty" to avoid public transport. I wonder if our Government will continue this position as lockdown is eased.
 

yorkie

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I was listening to a call from a blind/partially sighted man on our local radio phone in this afternoon he was making a point that I brought up before - he said that because of his sight problem he cannot drive but he was very upset that he was refused travel on a train because he was trying to make a journey to a place to exercise or go for a walk he said because he does not have access to a car it was discriminatory against people with disabilities that could not drive for medical reasons and he specifically mentioned the Equality Act (used to be DDA) and was going to write to his MP or even think about legal challenge the interviewer did bring up the public health reasons for the current restrictions. He also mentioned the member of rail staff or BTP? that refused him travel said that it would be the same after the partial relaxation of the lockdown with going outside for unlimited exercise now being permitted and driving for exercise now permitted, he said that it was not fair that people could drive anywhere in England for exercise and outdoor activities but could not travel by train if they did not have access to a car to do the same. I do have a question - I was aware that new government guidelines re the use of PT was released this week which AFAIK advices avoid public transport where you can (e.g. if you have a car available) and try to travel outside the peak but guidelines they are they are advisory not law and the actual regulations re the lockdown restrictions have now been amended to say you can travel outside your house for unlimited exercise AFAIK it does not mention PT so there is now legislation in force saying you cannot use train services I do have a question in the current circumstances what discretion do either members of railway staff or BTP have to refuse travel in the current circumstances and I am concerned once visiting friends and relatives is permitted this could become more of an issue if not resolved - I plan to visit my friend by train again a journey that I normally take of a weekend surely they should allow this sort of travel at weekends as their is a lot less work related travel otherwise on a close to normal timetable those trains would be virtually carrying around fresh air!
The person he spoke to was wrong, it's as simple as that.
 
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Mag_seven

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Can I remind everyone that this thread of for the discussion of the enforcement of the social distancing rules not about whether we agree or not with the social distancing rules. Thanks.
 

Butts

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There was no enforcement at Portobello Beach near Edinburgh on Wednesday - a rare warm day up here

They separated a few people but didn't issue any fines.

I suspect the simple truth is there were so many people flouting the rules that enforcement was impossible.

This will become more prevalent as the weather improves.
 

Skimpot flyer

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Is travelling over 260 miles and staying overnight a breach of the regulations? If you or I did it, when already having symptoms, I'd fully expect an automatic fine. So what happened with this guy ?
British Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s closest adviser, Dominic Cummings, travelled more than 400 km from his London home after showing symptoms of coronavirus, breaking the government’s lockdown rules, the Guardian and Mirror newspapers reported on Friday.
Cummings, a polarising figure in Britain since he masterminded the successful campaign to leave the European Union in 2016, travelled to Durham in northern England in late March, when a strict lockdown was already in place, the reports said.
If he is not sacked, given he is a member of SAGE, surely it will make some people feel that if it's ok for Dominic Cummings to believe he's above the law, why the hell should we observe the rules that he himself helped to draw up ??
There is also no confirmation of how Cummings travelled to Durham.
If he went by train, that means he knowingly put other members of the public at risk when he was already symptomatic.

unbelievable hypocrisy once again
 

Bantamzen

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Is travelling over 260 miles and staying overnight a breach of the regulations? If you or I did it, when already having symptoms, I'd fully expect an automatic fine. So what happened with this guy ?


If he is not sacked, given he is a member of SAGE, surely it will make some people feel that if it's ok for Dominic Cummings to believe he's above the law, why the hell should we observe the rules that he himself helped to draw up ??
There is also no confirmation of how Cummings travelled to Durham.
If he went by train, that means he knowingly put other members of the public at risk when he was already symptomatic.

unbelievable hypocrisy once again
And he's not the first government advisor to break the rules. Its almost as if it is one rule for them, another for the rest....
 

Blinkbonny

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There is also no confirmation of how Cummings travelled to Durham.
If he went by train, that means he knowingly put other members of the public at risk when he was already symptomatic.

unbelievable hypocrisy once again
Even if he drove there would be a risk posed to breakdown or emergency services. Especially if he was driving whilst ill.
 

Butts

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And he's not the first government advisor to break the rules. Its almost as if it is one rule for them, another for the rest....
Take a reality check and contain your moral outrage, loads of people have been doing exactly the same thing.

The rule for them is being caught equals opprobrium, everyone else just slip under the radar and attract no publicity.
 

Mogster

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Cummins will say the move was “essential” for childcare reasons. He didn’t enter his parents home either, or at least not the part they were living in as it’s a very large property apparently. It’s not really in the same category as popping round to your mistresses house for a bonk or making repeated trips to a holiday home when the police have already told you not to...

It agree it is a long way to travel but it seems the childcare angle and the fact he didn’t interact with his parents will cover him. This was early on in the lockdown. A lot of people were dealing with business and deciding where they were going to stay during the lockdown. Some people moved in with relatives for childcare reasons.
 

Bantamzen

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Take a reality check and contain your moral outrage, loads of people have been doing exactly the same thing.

The rule for them is being caught equals opprobrium, everyone else just slip under the radar and attract no publicity.
Seriously? You are happy for senior advisors to ignore the "rules", but ignore the fact that the general public gets bent out of shape every time the Daily Express publishes a story about people sitting in a park?

Here's the point I think you are either missing or ignoring. When someone who is part of the advisory body to the government ignores it's own advice, this begs the question are there two rules in play here, or are the rules overkill and is this just evidence of it? Think about it for a minute, the advisors to the government telling people (or told people at least) to stay at home, don't travel unless it is necessary, don't meet people outside your own household, then two of them go right ahead and ignore it. So why is it OK for them, but not for the rest? That some members of the public have ignored then "rules" (and in far fewer numbers than many want to believe) is irrelevant. It is the people closest to the government that are ignoring the rules, and therefore making a mockery of them. Why should any of use listen to a government when their own advisors don't?
 

Ianno87

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Cummins will say the move was “essential” for childcare reasons. He didn’t enter his parents home either, or at least not the part they were living in as it’s a very large property apparently. It’s not really in the same category as popping round to your mistresses house for a bonk or making repeated trips to a holiday home when the police have already told you not to...

It agree it is a long way to travel but it seems the childcare angle and the fact he didn’t interact with his parents will cover him. This was early on in the lockdown. A lot of people were dealing with business and deciding where they were going to stay during the lockdown. Some people moved in with relatives for childcare reasons.
The guidance given by Boris in March was specifically that children should not be left with elderly grandparents who are in the vulnerable category even without having symptoms. The stated exception was children moving between separated parents.


Cummings has symptoms, and took a huge risk in that his kids are likely to have spread his symptoms on by then.

If Cummings was well enough to (presumably) drive from London to Durham and back, he was well enough to look after his kids. Lots of people have no choice but to look after their kids when ill.
 

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