Enforcement of the new rules on social distancing, unnecessary journeys etc.

[Arglwydd Golau]

I hope she had the relevant experience to do the job. She would also have had specialist advisors. I'd trust the CV she sent on her appointment to the job rather than WIKI for her CV.

Yes, of course she had the experience and of course she had the advisors! That's not my point!(and her CV isn't on Wiki as you know, just a brief outline of her career)

 

[telstarbox]

London is so much higher density than the rest of the UK which requires specific solutions that won't apply to say much lower-density MK. That said, a friend in suburban Manchester reported parks busy there simply because their parks are very small - the London ones are vast.

But not every city can close parks - some, e.g. MK, don't gate them so there is no practical way to do so unless it was a legal thing enforceable by the Police.

For some context on the parks issue:

Readers have been in touch to point out that large numbers of people were not flouting physical distancing measures in Brockwell Park, south London, on Saturday.

Chris Tryhorn writes:

The impression that has been given that large numbers of people were flouting government guidance is not accurate, as far as I could see. It was busy in the park – but this is a densely populated area, home to tens of thousands of people, many of whom have no outside living space. I saw no large groups; I remember seeing one group of three teenagers and noting that everyone else was on their own or in pairs, or parents with young children.

Some people were sitting on the grass or on benches but at a distance from others. Most people were on the move and many were visibly taking care to stay away from other people as best as they could. It can be difficult to stay two metres away from other people at all times in a busy park. No one that I saw was gratuitously ignoring social distancing guidance.

Closing parks would in my view be appallingly damaging to people’s physical and mental health at a time when they are dealing with unprecedented strain and anxiety. It will force people into smaller open spaces or on to roads where it will be harder to practise social distancing. If there is an irresponsible minority – and I didn’t see them – surely they should be spoken to, asked to change their behaviour and then if necessary sanctioned. Why should the responsible majority suffer?

Perhaps more could be done to promote responsible use of parks. This is very important because we don’t want to get into a situation where urban populations can no longer tolerate the lockdown.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-live-boris-johnson-spends-night-in-hospital

 

[Bletchleyite]

And maybe it'd make sense to do some surveying of when they're busy and publish that online? People probably don't know when it's quiet at the moment - normally that would be 9am-noon and 2pm to 5pm, ish, but with so many people not working that may no longer be true.

 

[trainophile]

I don't trust any photos currently being published that don't include a date of when they were taken.

 

[Ianno87]

I really do think we have to be careful about the use of the word 'expert' (as I've said before!). A quick look at Wiki shows that her background and experience was in Obstetrics and Gynecology...not Public Health.

Doesn't mean she's not an expert in drawing out expertise from experts in other areas.

 

[Meerkat]

Maybe the parks need one way systems....

 

[nlogax]

Maybe the parks need one way systems....

And minimum speed limit / no stopping signage..

There's probably merit in parks having one-way systems. Right now my Sainsburys Local store has that. Arrows hazard-taped to the floor. No conflicting movements and staff enforcing it at the entrance.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Doesn't mean she's not an expert in drawing out expertise from experts in other areas.

Well, I like that! (but it might be taking the definition of expert a tad too far!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

And minimum speed limit / no stopping signage..

Doing a bit of running around the Redways of MK I have noticed that people aren't thinking of the implications of stopping for a chat with someone else but still on the path 2m apart, thus completely blocking it for anyone wishing to maintain distance. People do need to start thinking about this and move aside to chat with people if they are going to.

Another thing that might be useful would be people (particulaly runners) using hand signals to indicate their intention of direction at a junction so others can work around it to avoid coming too close.

 

[oldman]

Odd statement by Sturgeon: We had a long conversation last night. It was my view, but she came to the same view - we came to that by mutual agreement. But it was my firm view by last night that was the correct course of action.

How long does it take to say 'you're fired'?

 

[telstarbox]

I don't trust any photos currently being published that don't include a date of when they were taken.

Photos of 'crowds' are meaningless anyway. People who are well-spaced appear to be much closer together in a typical forward-facing photograph.

 

[AM9]

Doesn't mean she's not an expert in drawing out expertise from experts in other areas.

... and probably a lot more expert than the thousands of armchair experts on social media.

 

[nlogax]

People do need to start thinking about this and move aside to chat with people if they are going to.

It's a manifestation of a lack of general spatial awareness. These are the same people who stop at the top or bottom of moving escalators, or block people getting in and out of lifts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a manifestation of a lack of general spatial awareness. These are the same people who stop at the top or bottom of moving escalators, or block people getting in and out of lifts.

Or (on topic for the forums) those who crowd around the doors of a busy train, preventing alighting?

 

[nlogax]

Or (on topic for the forums) those who crowd around the doors of a busy train, preventing alighting?

Hah, exactly that

I think parks will mostly get away without being closed. We need places to walk that aren't just streets (as quiet as they undoubtedly are right now) and parks fulfil that function. As long as people aren't idiots and treat them as meeting places and bbq venues then they should be left open.

 

[Ianno87]

Odd statement by Sturgeon: We had a long conversation last night. It was my view, but she came to the same view - we came to that by mutual agreement. But it was my firm view by last night that was the correct course of action.

How long does it take to say 'you're fired'?

Perhaps coming to a combined view about how tenable / effective she'd be in her job if she were able to continue (with reasons that may not be fully obvious to Sturgeon), imparting knowledge/advice before leaving. Lots of good reasons.

A straight sacking would be an incredibly dumb thing to do inthe circumstances.
If she were genuinely the only person able to work towards solving the current crisis, it would be reckless to sack her (albeit with an expectation of termination / resignation later)

 

[oldman]

One, she broke laws intended to protect public health. CMOs really should not do that.
Two, she undermined government policy. These policies are especially demanding of people living in cramped houses and high-density housing areas, as against than those living in large houses with gardens, never mind with second homes (which she must have known were a controversial issue already). Her do as I say, not as I do attitude rightly angered a lot of those people. It should have angered Sturgeon.
Three, there is no reason to believe that her talents were unique and irreplaceable - she led a team, the team is still there.

 

[83A]

Seems the government have U turned on potentially banning all exercise. Although it’s a bit buried in this article.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-52183137

The government has said it is not going to stop outdoor exercise, but has renewed warnings against sunbathing during the current restrictions.

A spokesman for Prime Minister Boris Johnson said: "It goes against our current guidance."

He added that exercise was "vital for protecting health and wellbeing. That is why it was included in the list of exceptional reasons people can leave their homes"

 

[ashkeba]

It would be untenable to ban exercise while a CMO is getting away without even a penalty notice for weekends away. Penalise the infringers, not the bedsitters.

 

[infobleep]

I friend drop off some food today and sunglasses. I had been using skiing goggles as a stop gap in my back garden. I'm advised not to go to the supermarket myself, so don't.

After doing so I showed her where the nearby hill was so she could get some exercise. She had been working in an emergency centre all day on the phone so wanted some fresh air.

It towards towards 7pm and the hillside looked more empty than Saturday. No idea what it was like during the day today. On Saturday I managed to keep my distance when out for an hour, save someone walking behind me when I didn't spot them about to do this. If I'd spotted them I'd have moved, as can't relie on others to take a different route to avoid you. Perhaps they don't understand rhat 2m includes walking passed someone.

To do the walk safely today I walked ahead and eventually on the opposite side of the road. It felt like something out of a spy film, where one person is following another at some distance. I did stop at one point but my friend carried on, unlike the films!

Once the footpath entrance was shown I headed home, occasionally stopping when people were walking ahead towards me. Thankfully they took a side road and I could carried on, well after I'd let someone else do the same. You need to have patience with this.

That is how you social distance yourself and exercise safely. If only the minority would also do this.

 

[MattA7]

Has anyone noticed that It isn’t always practical to stay 6 feet apart from others like we are advised to do. For example when you pass some in the street the vast majority of pavements aren’t 6ft wide and when you go to a store to buy something you can’t exactly stand 6ft from the counter.

 

[MattA7]

yesterday afternoon I saw 2 of my neighbors friends and their newborn baby visit their house. It’s shocking how negligent some people can be especially if they have just had a newborn.

 

[Bantamzen]

Just on the issue of outdoors exercise, passing within 2 metres of someone for a few moments does not necessarily increase your risk of contracting it. From what I have read the general consensus is that transmission is most likely as a result of coughing, sneezing or interacting for prolonged periods of time in close proximity.

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/covid-19/questions-answers

4. What is the mode of transmission? How (easily) does it spread?
While animals are believed to be the original source, the virus spread is now from person to person (human-to-human transmission). There is not enough epidemiological information at this time to determine how easily this virus spreads between people, but it is currently estimated that, on average, one infected person will infect between two and three other people.

The virus seems to be transmitted mainly via small respiratory droplets through sneezing, coughing, or when people interact with each other for some time in close proximity (usually less than one metre). These droplets can then be inhaled, or they can land on surfaces that others may come into contact with, who can then get infected when they touch their nose, mouth or eyes. The virus can survive on different surfaces from several hours (copper, cardboard) up to a few days (plastic and stainless steel). However, the amount of viable virus declines over time and may not always be present in sufficient numbers to cause infection.

The incubation period for COVID-19 (i.e. the time between exposure to the virus and onset of symptoms) is currently estimated to bet between one and 14 days.

We know that the virus can be transmitted when people who are infected show symptoms such as coughing. There is also some evidence suggesting that transmission can occur from a person that is infected even two days before showing symptoms; however, uncertainties remain about the effect of transmission by non-symptomatic persons.

So unless the person you might pass within 2 metres outdoors has just coughed or sneezed without covering their mouth / nose, a brief couple of seconds passing them doesn't seem like a likely means of transmission. Of course that's not to say you shouldn't try to keep a sensible distance, i.e. not brushing past people, and make sure that you yourself don't cough or sneeze as you approach, but conversely it doesn't mean you have to dive down a side road or into a hedgerow every time you see another human being.

 

[TheEdge]

Has anyone noticed that It isn’t always practical to stay 6 feet apart from others like we are advised to do. For example when you pass some in the street the vast majority of pavements aren’t 6ft wide and when you go to a store to buy something you can’t exactly stand 6ft from the counter.

Of course it isn't always practical. But its also highly unlikely you'll catch anything for the matter of seconds you are passing someone within 2m while walking along the road.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course it isn't always practical. But its also highly unlikely you'll catch anything for the matter of seconds you are passing someone within 2m while walking along the road.

And often there is the option of crossing the road or walking on it - many roads are far quieter than normal at present.

 

[111-111-1]

And often there is the option of crossing the road or walking on it - many roads are far quieter than normal at present.

Obviously the sensible option is to move away or hold back if getting close to a narrow area, most people do seem to do this. Unfortunately there are a few who either don't think ahead or just don't care.

2 examples yesterday were someone walking their dog in opposite direction to me who crossed the road and had I not done the same would have walked straight passed me.

Passing under a narrow bridge with no chance of passing another person even 1 metre appart due to barrier to road, 3 of us (a couple and myself separate groups) had waited for someone coming the other way to clear. Once the bridge was clear we started going through. About 3/4 of the way through someone decided to start coming through, the couple were far more polite than I would have been telling them to turn back.

Generally the most congested places where it is harder to keep social distance are shops.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Generally the most congested places where it is harder to keep social distance are shops.

I was just about ready to throttle the muppet in M&S who stood literally right next to me when I was standing at the fridge choosing some meat to buy without touching it. All these restrictions getting in the store, and some plank goes and does that. They're the people I'd be fining, just for being gormless as much as owt else.

When I'm out and about I turn my face away when I'm passing someone, for the seconds it takes to walk past someone it's no big deal, and they won't sneeze on me and I won't sneeze on them (hayfever is such a joy when everyone within a 3-mile radius poops themselves if you sneeze!)

I normally have the pushchair so going down the kerb is a pain; they can always go in the road if they want more space.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Obviously the sensible option is to move away or hold back if getting close to a narrow area, most people do seem to do this. Unfortunately there are a few who either don't think ahead or just don't care.

2 examples yesterday were someone walking their dog in opposite direction to me who crossed the road and had I not done the same would have walked straight passed me.

Passing under a narrow bridge with no chance of passing another person even 1 metre appart due to barrier to road, 3 of us (a couple and myself separate groups) had waited for someone coming the other way to clear. Once the bridge was clear we started going through. About 3/4 of the way through someone decided to start coming through, the couple were far more polite than I would have been telling them to turn back.

Generally the most congested places where it is harder to keep social distance are shops.

I don't know why people still have this obsession with the idea that walking withing two metres of someone could spread the virus. The advice I've read is that you are only at risk if you spend more than 15 minutes within two metres of a person (such as on public transport for example). There really is no reason for anyone out exercising to panic if someone jogs or cycles past them less than two metres away.

https://publichealthmatters.blog.gov.uk/2020/03/04/coronavirus-covid-19-what-is-social-distancing/

Relevant quote from the link:
"Coronaviruses can be spread when people with the virus have close, sustained contact with people who are not infected. This typically means spending more than 15 minutes within two metres of an infected person, such as talking to someone for instance."

 

[111-111-1]

I don't know why people still have this obsession with the idea that walking withing two metres of someone could spread the virus. The advice I've read is that you are only at risk if you spend more than 15 minutes within two metres of a person (such as on public transport for example). There really is no reason for anyone out exercising to panic if someone jogs or cycles past them less than two metres away.

https://publichealthmatters.blog.gov.uk/2020/03/04/coronavirus-covid-19-what-is-social-distancing/

Relevant quote from the link:
"Coronaviruses can be spread when people with the virus have close, sustained contact with people who are not infected. This typically means spending more than 15 minutes within two metres of an infected person, such as talking to someone for instance."

The advice given recently was that although the risk of just passing someone closely is minimal it is best practice to keep the 2 metre distance where possible. There is some evidence that viral load may play a part in how badly a person reacts to the virus so again it would seem sensible to reduce exposure to as low as possible.

Anyway I would rather be overcautious, it's better that way.

 

[111-111-1]

I was just about ready to throttle the muppet in M&S who stood literally right next to me when I was standing at the fridge choosing some meat to buy without touching it. All these restrictions getting in the store, and some plank goes and does that. They're the people I'd be fining, just for being gormless as much as owt else.

When I'm out and about I turn my face away when I'm passing someone, for the seconds it takes to walk past someone it's no big deal, and they won't sneeze on me and I won't sneeze on them (hayfever is such a joy when everyone within a 3-mile radius poops themselves if you sneeze!)

I normally have the pushchair so going down the kerb is a pain; they can always go in the road if they want more space.

If someone has a pram or as in the case yesterday a guide dog I consider it my responsibility to if at all possible get out the way, and would include someone with an obvious physical impediment.

If you don't worry about someone taking a few seconds to pass you in the street why worry about someone standing next to you for a few seconds in the shop? Unless you both stand there deciding for ages it will not be that long.