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Enforcement of the new rules on social distancing, unnecessary journeys etc.

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Bletchleyite

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It was definitely a step too far, I've potentially seen first hand this morning the consequences of it with people actually believing it will happen. This what people like the Chief Constable need to understand, you must be accurate in what you say because messages can get out to millions of people in a matter of minutes. Lessons need to be learnt here I think.

But then does that mean people will think twice about going out if they don't need to? I remain convinced shops are going to be the worst spread vectors because there are lots of people indoors touching the same stuff. In normal circumstances I often pop to my local shop just for a bar of chocolate, but I've certainly considered that in these circumstances wouldn't be the right thing to do. Similarly going to buy a new duvet or something is probably not essential on its own, but there's no real reason not to if you're already in the shop because you needed bread and milk.

I suspect if they *were* going to start doing that, they wouldn't be going "oi, go and put that Easter Egg back", but rather they'd be going "look, did you really need to come out just for that and put your family at risk" if someone had a trolley just containing Easter eggs?
 
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Bantamzen

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But then does that mean people will think twice about going out if they don't need to? I remain convinced shops are going to be the worst spread vectors because there are lots of people indoors touching the same stuff. In normal circumstances I often pop to my local shop just for a bar of chocolate, but I've certainly considered that in these circumstances wouldn't be the right thing to do. Similarly going to buy a new duvet or something is probably not essential on its own, but there's no real reason not to if you're already in the shop because you needed bread and milk.

I'm sorry but no, the Police have no remit to tell people what they can and cannot buy at the stores that are open, period. If you go to most supermarkets they will advise you via not to touch items unless you intend to buy them. Now admittedly this might not always be possible with things like packaged meats, veg etc. But even then the risk to you is minimal provided you don't subsequently touch your face prior to washing your hands. So, as I have always said, maintain a rigorous but sensible washing regime and you minimise the risk.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm sorry but no, the Police have no remit to tell people what they can and cannot buy at the stores that are open, period.

No, they don't, but they can give advice. Just like if you're burgled they will (if they've got time, which I know isn't a given these days) come round and advise on properly securing your property.

This is quite similar to stopping people going to the Lake District. It's not prohibited under English law to do so for exercise, but it's clear people shouldn't be doing it, and what the Police will therefore be doing is giving very strong advice.

If you go to most supermarkets they will advise you via not to touch items unless you intend to buy them. Now admittedly this might not always be possible with things like packaged meats, veg etc. But even then the risk to you is minimal provided you don't subsequently touch your face prior to washing your hands. So, as I have always said, maintain a rigorous but sensible washing regime and you minimise the risk.

I would agree, but most people are I suspect not doing this, or their "regime" is full of holes.
 

Greybeard33

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I'm sorry but no, the Police have no remit to tell people what they can and cannot buy at the stores that are open, period.
But the legislation specifically states what shopping provides a "reasonable excuse" to leave home. Namely "basic necessities, including food and medical supplies" and "supplies for the essential upkeep, maintenance and functioning of the household". Nothing else.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/regulation/6/made

Some may argue there is no harm in buying other stuff while you are there, but that increases the time you are in the shop and so increases the opportunities for the virus to spread. It may also mean that others have to queue longer to get in.

In my opinion all the supermarkets should remove, or block access to, products that do not fall into those two legal categories, so that shoppers are not tempted.
 

farleigh

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You are entitled to your opinion of course. I think it is fine if you want to just buy pasta, paracetamol and toilet roll but I am enjoying the full range of what is still on offer. I think that the more the restrictions are increased, the more people are likely to resent and rail against them.
 

C J Snarzell

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I think the point @bramling was making was about going for a “shop crawl” every day

I know for a fact many people are actually just going to the shops everyday as 'something to do'. One my mum's neighbours is doing a round trip - Monday Asda, Tuesday Lidl, Wednesday Sainsburys, Thursday Aldi, Friday Tesco's!!! Not buying anything particularly important or necessary - just going for the sake of going to kill the odd hour or two because there is nowhere else open. You could not make it up!!!

CJ
 

Bantamzen

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But the legislation specifically states what shopping provides a "reasonable excuse" to leave home. Namely "basic necessities, including food and medical supplies" and "supplies for the essential upkeep, maintenance and functioning of the household". Nothing else.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/regulation/6/made

Some may argue there is no harm in buying other stuff while you are there, but that increases the time you are in the shop and so increases the opportunities for the virus to spread. It may also mean that others have to queue longer to get in.

In my opinion all the supermarkets should remove, or block access to, products that do not fall into those two legal categories, so that shoppers are not tempted.

So what products would you apply to these categories? Because to be absolutely clear, none are defined by the current legislation.
 

yorksrob

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If you're buying a set of plates, or a towel when you're on your weekly shop, the benefit to the economy probably far outweighs what miniscule additional risk there is from being in the shop marginally longer.
 

Bletchleyite

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I know for a fact many people are actually just going to the shops everyday as 'something to do'. One my mum's neighbours is doing a round trip - Monday Asda, Tuesday Lidl, Wednesday Sainsburys, Thursday Aldi, Friday Tesco's!!! Not buying anything particularly important or necessary - just going for the sake of going to kill the odd hour or two because there is nowhere else open. You could not make it up!!!

?!

Just go for a walk.
 

GB

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But the legislation specifically states what shopping provides a "reasonable excuse" to leave home. Namely "basic necessities, including food and medical supplies" and "supplies for the essential upkeep, maintenance and functioning of the household". Nothing else.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/regulation/6/made

Some may argue there is no harm in buying other stuff while you are there, but that increases the time you are in the shop and so increases the opportunities for the virus to spread. It may also mean that others have to queue longer to get in.

Given there are no time limits placed to being in a supermarket that excuse doesn't really wash. Person A could be in the shop for an hour or more doing their weekly grocery shop, person B could only be in there 30 minutes doing their weekly grocery shop AND picking up a few so called non-essentials.


In my opinion all the supermarkets should remove, or block access to, products that do not fall into those two legal categories, so that shoppers are not tempted.

How do you determine what is essential to someone and what isn't and how far do you take it? Is someones desire to have sausage and chips for tea any more "essential" than someone buying a DVD, new towels, electrical goods such as sockets, cables and adapters, a new kitchen clock (since the old one is smashed to pieces on the floor) or a whole plethora of non-food items AND their grocery shop? There are plenty of food stuffs that are not essential (nice to have yes), so should we ban the sale of chocolate, fizzy drinks, alcohol, general junk food and the like?
 

MDB1images

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I see French police sent people back to England from Cannes after they arrived on a executive jet for a holiday.
Even though 2 helicopters was waiting to take the passengers they refused them entry due to the strict lockdown rules and sent them back.
 

Bletchleyite

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How do you determine what is essential to someone and what isn't and how far do you take it? Is someones desire to have sausage and chips for tea any more "essential" than someone buying a DVD, new towels, electrical goods such as sockets, cables and adapters, a new kitchen clock (since the old one is smashed to pieces on the floor) or a whole plethora of non-food items AND their grocery shop? There are plenty of food stuffs that are not essential (nice to have yes), so should we ban the sale of chocolate, fizzy drinks, alcohol, general junk food and the like?

I've generally tried (within reason) to "eat up" what I've already got before shopping again, if that gives you an idea. I think that's in the spirit of being asked to shop as little as possible.
 

mark-h

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What are the "non essential aisles"?
If you're buying a set of plates, or a towel when you're on your weekly shop,
Determining what is essential is difficult- the set of plates may be essential if somebody has broken some or to have a separate set for each person living in the same residence, similar arguments apply to the towels.

I bought a pair of slippers after the lockdown- I would expect a court to agree that my old ones needed replaced if they examined them.
 

Bantamzen

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The government have now clarified the situation:


Downing Street says people can buy whatever they want from shops that remain open amid concerns some police are overstepping lockdown powers.

There have been cases of police warning shoppers against buying "non-essential" items.

No 10 also said people can use their gardens as they wish, after a video showed police confronting a family for letting their children play outside.

Meanwhile, the PM has been up and walking as his recovery continues.

Downing Street said Boris Johnson, who was discharged from intensive care to a hospital ward on Thursday night, "has been able to do short walks, between periods of rest, as part of the care he is receiving to aid his recovery".

The spokesman said Mr Johnson had spoken to his doctors and thanked "the whole clinical team for the incredible care he has received".

A further 866 people have died in hospitals in England after testing positive for coronavirus, NHS England announced.

In Scotland, 48 more people have died, in Wales there were 29 more deaths, and in Northern Ireland there were 10.

Asked about suggestions that police were patrolling the supermarket aisles to see what people were buying, Downing Street said people were allowed to buy whatever they wanted from shops permitted to be open.

"We set out a list of shops which could remain open and if the shops are on that list then they are free to sell whatever they have in stock," the prime minister's official spokesman said.

Police in Cambridge had to clarify a social media post - since deleted - by an "over-exuberant" officer who suggested they were monitoring aisles of "non-essential" goods in supermarkets.

"The force position, in line with national guidance, is that we are not monitoring what people are buying from supermarkets," they said.

On Thursday, Home Secretary Priti Patel said it was "not appropriate" for police to be checking people's supermarket trolleys after Northamptonshire Police threatened to introduce the measures.

Chief Constable Nick Adderley said the force would consider roadblocks and searches of people's shopping if the public did not follow the rules. He later called his remarks "clumsy".

With South Yorkshire Police also having apologised for a "well-intentioned but ill-informed" officer who told a family not to play in their own front garden, Downing Street said people could use their gardens as they choose - as long as they are with members of their household.

The government is seeking to reassure the public about the lockdown rules as it stresses the measures are working to reduce the spread of infection and the number of people admitted to hospital.
 

Meerkat

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I don’t think there is any harm in a bit of over zealous messaging - raises the debate and makes people consider what they are doing.
buying non-essential stuff does probably increase the number of shopping trips made
 

Islineclear3_1

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Some may argue there is no harm in buying other stuff while you are there, but that increases the time you are in the shop and so increases the opportunities for the virus to spread. It may also mean that others have to queue longer to get in.

Respectfully, I don't buy this argument. People will spend as long as they need and if they forget an essential item (such as if they feel pressured to move on), they will only go back and get it. It takes no longer putting an Easter egg into your trolley than a packet of biscuits or a pint of milk
 

farleigh

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I don’t think there is any harm in a bit of over zealous messaging - raises the debate and makes people consider what they are doing.
buying non-essential stuff does probably increase the number of shopping trips made
Increases anxiety in older and vulnerable people.
Increases likelihood of panic buying.
Re-inforces negative views of the police.
Risks people not trusting police in future as they have been seen to be messaging incorrectly.
Reduces likelihood of people respecting the guidlines when authorities like the police can't respect them
 

Tetchytyke

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Robert Jenrick did nothing wrong. He actually drove from his house in Herefordshire, to his parents’ house about 70km away; didn’t enter the house, to drop off essential supplies.

It is legal, yes, if what he says is true. That isn't what the neighbours reported to The Guardian, of course.

But I never said it wasn't legal. I said he was a hypocrite.

Mr Jenrick has been one of the biggest cheerleaders for tightening restrictions on those driving any distance for exercise (also legal), and has been the biggest cheerleader for "community doing it instead". He's admitted their neighbours have been doing the shopping and hasn't said what was so urgent that required a two-hour drive to do it.

As I said, "do what I say, not what I do".

I don’t think there is any harm in a bit of over zealous messaging - raises the debate and makes people consider what they are doing.
buying non-essential stuff does probably increase the number of shopping trips made

Starting with "non-essential" shopping, I don't see how it increases the number of trips. It might slightly increase the length of a shop, I can see that, but make people go more often? Nah.

I'm also uncomfortable about "non-essential shopping" becoming a thing. What is non-essential, who decides? A TV is pretty essential if mine's just blown up; a pint of milk isn't essential if I have 37 pints of UHT milk in the cupboard.

It's also a bit of a moot point, most retailers have reduced their non-food offering to reduce the number of staff they need in. The ones who haven't tend to be the stores whose staff don't work in departments.

As for "over-zealous messaging", it a) trashes goodwill and b) just makes the police look stupid. Related to b) is it just makes people tune out or disregard *everything* the police are saying.
 
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CM

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It is legal, yes, if what he says is true. That isn't what the neighbours reported to The Guardian, of course.

But I never said it wasn't legal. I said he was a hypocrite.

Mr Jenrick has been one of the biggest cheerleaders for tightening restrictions on those driving any distance for exercise (also legal), and has been the biggest cheerleader for "community doing it instead". He's admitted their neighbours have been doing the shopping and hasn't said what was so urgent that required a two-hour drive to do it.

As I said, "do what I say, not what I do".

Perhaps the neighbours were unable to help this time around so he did it himself. As has been said, there was nothing wrong with what he did as it was within the guidelines or whatever you want to call them.
 

Arglwydd Golau

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Robert Jenrick did nothing wrong. He actually drove from his house in Herefordshire, to his parents’ house about 70km away; didn’t enter the house, to drop off essential supplies. This is allowed for in both the government guidelines (the spirit of the legislation) and also legally allowed under the Regulations.

Really? Are there 'essential supplies' that Jenrick's neighbours were unable to find locally? Were they available in Herefordshire but not in Shropshire? I do think that you are being incredibly generous to Jenrick.
 

Mojo

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Really? Are there 'essential supplies' that Jenrick's neighbours were unable to find locally? Were they available in Herefordshire but not in Shropshire? I do think that you are being incredibly generous to Jenrick.
Who says that these have to be procured locally? What if the people previously helping them had been unable to assist any more? What if the parents felt uncomfortable asking the people to obtain something after they had already helped several times the past week? I know that I wouldn’t feel comfortable asking my neighbours to go out shopping for me but wouldn’t have the same problem asking my parents or another friend/family member.
 

farleigh

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Another example in a Durham police tweet: “If you haven't got blue lights on your bike, you probably shouldn’t be on the roads this weekend,”.

:rolleyes:.
 

Arglwydd Golau

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Who says that these have to be procured locally? What if the people previously helping them had been unable to assist any more? What if the parents felt uncomfortable asking the people to obtain something after they had already helped several times the past week? I know that I wouldn’t feel comfortable asking my neighbours to go out shopping for me but wouldn’t have the same problem asking my parents or another friend/family member.
As I said, I still feel you're being incredibly generous to Jenrick! But we'll leave it there....
 

Tetchytyke

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As has been said, there was nothing wrong with what he did as it was within the guidelines or whatever you want to call them.

It was within the law, it wasn't within the guidelines. Either way, it's hypocritical.

Who says that these have to be procured locally? What if the people previously helping them had been unable to assist any more?

As I said, it's not illegal, but when you're the politician slagging off others for driving long distances, it is very hypocritical. The Scottish CMO lost her job for a similar escapade.

I am sceptical about his explanation as his parents' neighbours had time to take photos and shop him to the Guardian; if it was a flying visit they wouldn't have even noticed him there. But assuming he is telling the truth, it is still "do what I say, not do what I do".
 

scotrail158713

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Another example in a Durham police tweet: “If you haven't got blue lights on your bike, you probably shouldn’t be on the roads this weekend,”.

:rolleyes:.
:rolleyes: indeed. If I’m going out cycling it’s on my own (as I would be for any other exercise) so I’m doing next to no harm.
 

Domh245

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Another example in a Durham police tweet: “If you haven't got blue lights on your bike, you probably shouldn’t be on the roads this weekend,”.

:rolleyes:.

The "probably" there makes the difference though. They're advising, rather than enforcing, although it does come across a bit sinster
 

Greybeard33

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The government have now clarified the situation:

In posts about the exercise rules, IIRC you have insisted that it is the letter of the legislation that matters, not the associated government guidance. Yet in respect of shopping, you are happy that a briefing from an anonymous "Downing Street spokesman" overrides the legislation? :rolleyes:

Perhaps the government should amend the law, rather than tell the police not to enforce it.
 
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