Enforcement of the new rules on social distancing, unnecessary journeys etc.

[nlogax]

I've been poring over these guidelines this afternoon.

Moving to a friend’s address for several days to allow a ‘cooling-off’ following arguments at home. The Regulations allow people to move house. This means that individuals can move between households. But this should be a genuine move (ie,measured in days not hours)

This also says to me I would be free to drive north to move in with my partner for the rest of the lockdown. I've been wfh and isolated for four full weeks. However, this would only assist me as far north as the Scottish border and I am unsure what Police Scotland's take on those guidelines is.

 

[Meerkat]

I've been poring over these guidelines this afternoon.



This also says to me I would be free to drive north to move in with my partner for the rest of the lockdown. I've been wfh and isolated for four full weeks. However, this would only assist me as far north as the Scottish border and I am unsure what Police Scotland's take on those guidelines is.

I totally disagree - that exception is for domestic abuse prevention.
BUT....you are allowed to move house, which sounds like what you are effectively proposing?

 

[nlogax]

I totally disagree - that exception is for domestic abuse prevention.

Is it solely for that?

BUT....you are allowed to move house, which sounds like what you are effectively proposing?

That's what I'm proposing. A temporary house move. See this (not by me but an almost identical situation).

https://www.reddit.com/r/policeuk/comments/fzbsfq/would_i_be_violating_covid_rules_and_be_risking_a/ -

Would I be violating COVID rules and be risking a court summons/fine for moving in with my girlfriend?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think in England that would be OK (I'm not familiar with Scottish law on this). I recall it being said at the start "yes you can move in with someone, but it has to be for the duration, you can't keep going back and forth".

My next door neighbour appears to have done this, he seems just to be coming back every day or two to check on the house and collect post.

 

[nlogax]

I think in England that would be OK (I'm not familiar with Scottish law on this). I recall it being said at the start "yes you can move in with someone, but it has to be for the duration, you can't keep going back and forth".

My next door neighbour appears to have done this, he seems just to be coming back every day or two to check on the house and collect post.

Ta I agree, it's the Scottish element of this that has me researching and asking more questions before committing to any hard plans. But it would definitely be for the duration of whatever the rest of this lockdown looks like. To keep going back and forth between properties is some kind of madness usually reserved for certain politicians.

 

[geoffk]

Police guidance apparently says now that people are not allowed to buy paint and brushes "simply to redecorate a kitchen" but can purchase tools etc. to repair a fence "damaged in recent bad weather". I'm doing some decorating as it's a good opportunity and had to buy paint on line as our local hardware shop is closed. But surely if a shop is open, I can buy anything it's selling without having to justify it, unless that part of the shop is physically blocked off.

 

[Cowley]

Police guidance apparently says now that people are not allowed to buy paint and brushes "simply to redecorate a kitchen" but can purchase tools etc. to repair a fence "damaged in recent bad weather". I'm doing some decorating as it's a good opportunity and had to buy paint on line as our local hardware shop is closed. But surely if a shop is open, I can buy anything it's selling without having to justify it, unless that part of the shop is physically blocked off.

Yes can buy paint online (I’m a painter and decorator), but getting hold of matt emulsion isn’t cheap. I’m doing my own house at the moment and where I’d normally use Dulux, the cheapest I could find the other day was £70 for 10 litres, I’d normally pay about half that...
I did manage to get 10 litres of Leyland trade emulsion on eBay for £39 delivered though and that arrived today.

Just to add that although I’m not I know plenty of decorators that are really struggling financially at the moment and June feels like a long way away for them.


Edit - I think I might have strayed off topic.

 

[Busaholic]

Edit - I think I might have strayed off topic.

Slap on left hand from right hand?

 

[Mojo]

Yes can buy paint online (I’m a painter and decorator), but getting hold of matt emulsion isn’t cheap. I’m doing my own house at the moment and where I’d normally use Dulux, the cheapest I could find the other day was £70 for 10 litres, I’d normally pay about half that...
I did manage to get 10 litres of Leyland trade emulsion on eBay for £39 delivered though and that arrived today.

I would say that things like this show that online shops like Amazon's etc really are not cheap when it comes to buying many items for the home. And this is not just an example of price gouging, I've always found them being significantly more expensive than real shops.

To be honest, there are plenty of shops still open that sell paint. Whilst some like Toolstation have a reduced amount, many of the more budget places, like Wilko, B&M, etc. are still open and selling paint. To be honest, I think there is nothing wrong with buying such produce from these shops, if you are going in to buy something that would be considered essential. I did hear that certain shops may have decided to seal off their DIY aisles, but I've not seen this (not been in B&M mind, but I have seen people walking out with paint).

 

[83A]

I've been poring over these guidelines this afternoon.



This also says to me I would be free to drive north to move in with my partner for the rest of the lockdown. I've been wfh and isolated for four full weeks. However, this would only assist me as far north as the Scottish border and I am unsure what Police Scotland's take on those guidelines is.

I was considering moving in with my partner anyway until this blows over, as previous they’d implied if you were in a relationship (not cohabitating) you could not meet but you could live together. This validates my thinking. The last person I saw was her anyway before the lockdown and visa versa.

 

[Enthusiast]

That's what I'm proposing. A temporary house move. See this (not by me but an almost identical situation).

The move has to be "reasonably necessary". Yours doesn't appear to be - especially if it intended to be temporary.

 

[sheff1]

But surely if a shop is open, I can buy anything it's selling without having to justify it, unless that part of the shop is physically blocked off.

As long as you had a "reasonable excuse" (as per the Regulations) to leave the place where you are living then yes, that is fine. What you cannot do legally is leave the place where you are living solely to buy a pot of paint for "non-essential" work .... walking to the shop could be considered exercise (a reasonable excuse), driving there would not.

 

[Cowley]

I would say that things like this show that online shops like Amazon's etc really are not cheap when it comes to buying many items for the home. And this is not just an example of price gouging, I've always found them being significantly more expensive than real shops.

To be honest, there are plenty of shops still open that sell paint. Whilst some like Toolstation have a reduced amount, many of the more budget places, like Wilko, B&M, etc. are still open and selling paint. To be honest, I think there is nothing wrong with buying such produce from these shops, if you are going in to buy something that would be considered essential. I did hear that certain shops may have decided to seal off their DIY aisles, but I've not seen this (not been in B&M mind, but I have seen people walking out with paint).

It’s a strange situation isn’t it? There’s a couple of different factors for me, one being that I know that I’m not an ‘essential’ worker. No-ones house is going to fall down if I don’t paint it.... (well hopefully not)
Also I can’t buy the quantities I’d need to actually do my job properly as my main supplier has been shut for weeks now.
The other thing is that I need to show a good example to our grown up kids as it’d be a little bit unfair if I was to carry on as normal while telling them that they can’t see any of their friends due to them needing to heed social distancing advice etc (he says making a desperate lunge at the ‘on topic’ riverbank).

 

[johnnychips]

We are getting far too paranoid and pedantic about this. It is all a matter of probabilities. If you are coughing and sneezing you should not leave your house (though god bless anyone who has hay fever). The main chance of getting or passing CV is to someone you live with. When you are out, try to maintain social distancing, though it will not be the end of the world if you pass within 2m of someone: you could ask them if they are French, in which case 1m would be OK, or Belgian, 1.5 m. It is the length of time that matters, if they had it.
I do think we are all going to get it sometime. So build up your resistance by exercise while you can, obviously maintaining your distance.

 

[ChrisC]

I fully understand the reasons why we have needed to protect the over 70’s during the current situation and agree than the current restrictions should remain in place for another 3 weeks. However, how long can we expect elderly people to remain isolated from members of their family.

It is a difficult question to answer but keeping within the rules of social distancing, as part of any exit strategy, could some travel restrictions be lifted at the end of the next 3 weeks. My 85 year mother has not seen my sister, her daughter, for 4 weeks now. They live about 40 miles apart and both in rural areas, in houses with reasonable sized gardens. If travel could be allowed in such circumstances, with the summer weather, they could see each other in the garden without even going into the house or coming into close contact. This would be so good for my mothers well being and mental health.

I appreciate the problems of what would happen if the car broke down on the journey or was involved in an accident. I know that if this was allowed some people would take advantage of this and travel around the country for leisure purposes saying they are visiting an elderly person. However, when restrictions begin to be lifted, a few more shops open, people return to work, schools open etc, surely elderly and vulnerable people cannot remain isolated from their family for very much longer.

 

[Mag_seven]

If you are coughing and sneezing you should not leave your house (though god bless anyone who has hay fever).

If the cough is a new continuous one then yes but there is no mention of sneezing:

COVID-19 symptoms and what to do

Find out about the symptoms of COVID-19, what to do if you or your child has them and when to get medical help.

www.nhs.uk

Do not leave your home if you have coronavirus symptoms

Do not leave your home if you have either:

• a high temperature – this means you feel hot to touch on your chest or back (you do not need to measure your temperature)
• a new, continuous cough – this means coughing a lot for more than an hour, or 3 or more coughing episodes in 24 hours (if you usually have a cough, it may be worse than usual)

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's interesting how they define temperature. I always feel "hot to the touch" on my back - I radiate a lot of heat. But my body temperature actually usually runs a little low, typically around 36 (37 is the norm, I believe).

 

[Bantamzen]

If the cough is a new continuous one then yes but there is no mention of sneezing:

COVID-19 symptoms and what to do

Find out about the symptoms of COVID-19, what to do if you or your child has them and when to get medical help.

www.nhs.uk

Indeed, although obviously in these times its especially important to cover your nose & mouth when sneezing with a issue. As a hay fever sufferer I know how difficult it can be, but personally I've found that taking a tea-spoon of honey (preferably locally sourced) every day really helps, to the point that I no longer need any anti-histamines.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, although obviously in these times its especially important to cover your nose & mouth when sneezing with a issue. As a hay fever sufferer I know how difficult it can be, but personally I've found that taking a tea-spoon of honey (preferably locally sourced) every day really helps, to the point that I no longer need any anti-histamines.

I've heard of that before as almost some kind of "vaccine" (not an actual vaccine because the mechanism is different, you're trying to stop the immune system running away, not encourage it) - in taking in as food a "sample" of something containing some of the offending pollen, your body adjusts to it as being normal.

 

[Bantamzen]

I've heard of that before as almost some kind of "vaccine" (not an actual vaccine because the mechanism is different, you're trying to stop the immune system running away, not encourage it) - in taking in as food a "sample" of something containing some of the offending pollen, your body adjusts to it as being normal.

That's the general principle, you are effectively introducing pollen into your system in small enough amounts to get your immune trained to not over-react. A family member told me about it many years ago, I gave it go and was pleasantly surprised. You still can get itchy eyes occasionally, and maybe the odd sneeze when the count is high. But I went from sneezing all the time to very rarely at all. It works best if you start before the pollen season, but it can work after a few weeks during (as I did).

 

[Puffing Devil]

New police guidelines issued today of what constitutes a reasonable excuse for being out of one's home. They seem quite sensible and I hope that certain overzealous police forces take note.

Mixed messages from the government. On the main website we see

Stay at home​

• Only go outside for food, health reasons or work (but only if you cannot work from home)
• If you go out, stay 2 metres (6ft) away from other people at all times
• Wash your hands as soon as you get home

Do not meet others, even friends or family. You can spread the virus even if you don’t have symptoms.​

Yet ACPO say it's OK to drive into the country for a "long walk". That's a long way (pun intended) from "Stay at home".

The more wriggle room we allow, the more the crayon munchers will continue to justify their actions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are ACPO guidelines. They should never have been leaked.

 

[bramling]

Mixed messages from the government. On the main website we see

Stay at home​

• Only go outside for food, health reasons or work (but only if you cannot work from home)
• If you go out, stay 2 metres (6ft) away from other people at all times
• Wash your hands as soon as you get home

Do not meet others, even friends or family. You can spread the virus even if you don’t have symptoms.​

Yet ACPO say it's OK to drive into the country for a "long walk". That's a long way (pun intended) from "Stay at home".

The more wriggle room we allow, the more the crayon munchers will continue to justify their actions.

Yes, and we’ve now seen an increase in road and public transport use. Big mistake.

 

[jellybaby]

They are ACPO guidelines. They should never have been leaked.

Leaked? They appear to be published at https://www.college.police.uk/What-we-do/COVID-19/Documents/What-constitutes-a-reasonable-excuse.pdf

 

[lyndhurst25]

They are ACPO guidelines. They should never have been leaked.

I can't think of any valid argument as to why the guidelines should be kept secret from the public, who have the right to know what is and what is not allowed by law. If you are of the opinion that the current laws are too lax, then it is up to the government to amend those laws, not for the police to bend the current laws in an attempt effectively outlaw things that are not actually illegal, even if they feel that they are acting in public interest.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I can't think of any valid argument as to why the guidelines should be kept secret from the public, who have the right to know what is and what is not allowed by law. If you are of the opinion that the current laws are too lax, then it is up to the government to amend those laws, not for the police to bend the current laws in an attempt effectively outlaw things that are not actually illegal, even if they feel that they are acting in public interest.

Or perhaps legislate to enforce the official guidance?

 

[bramling]

Or perhaps legislate to enforce the official guidance?

Yes I agree there should be clearer legislation in force. One can’t help but wonder if the non-availability of Boris over the last three weeks has had an effect on all this.

 

[sheff1]

Or perhaps legislate to enforce the official guidance?

The government could have done that but chose not to ...... I wonder what the reason was.

 

[johnnychips]

The government could have done that but chose not to ...... I wonder what the reason was.

I would have expected that the Government thought... we haven’t the police resources to implement a very severe crackdown, and if we did people will protest actively. Let’s do this and we would expect 95% of people to comply, and that will be enough to bring the rate of infection down ... which has by and large happened.

 

[bramling]

I would have expected that the Government thought... we haven’t the police resources to implement a very severe crackdown, and if we did people will protest actively. Let’s do this and we would expect 95% of people to comply, and that will be enough to bring the rate of infection down ... which has by and large happened.

I think that’s exactly it. Reality is despite the publicity emanating from a few hotspots there’s barely much police enforcement at all. Apart from BTP I’ve barely seen a police officer since the lockdown came in.

I do tend to agree that there should have been a little more detail and clarification as to certain boundaries. And despite the wall-to-wall tv coverage, there hasn’t been much explanation as to *why* the restrictions are laid out as they are.

Generally the better reasons are explained to people the more they accept something.

Something a little less muddled, whilst shouldn’t have been necessary, would have avoided some of the nonsense we’re now seeing like silly “outsiders stay out of our village, save the NHS” signs. Would all of us had sufficient spare time with nothing more useful to be doing than looking out of our window getting angry and constructing signs!