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England & Wales Tracing App to be released Sept 24th

Will You Download the App?

  • Yes - As Soon As Possible

    Votes: 53 24.0%
  • Maybe - Will see how roll out goes

    Votes: 46 20.8%
  • No - Privacy / Data Security

    Votes: 61 27.6%
  • No - Risk of Self Isolation

    Votes: 25 11.3%
  • No - Technology (No Smartphone / Incompatible / Battery)

    Votes: 25 11.3%
  • Other

    Votes: 11 5.0%

  • Total voters
    221
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jtuk

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Again you are assuming you have much more impact than what you, as an individual person, have.
You deciding to not spend £20 in a pub is going to make zero difference to that pub in reality.

On one occasion, true. That said, you would be surprised at how many places rely on a small number of regulars. If my local tried anything like this, and the four of us that go in a couple of times a week to watch the match and have a round each opted to go elsewhere, that works out at slightly more than 20 quid over the course of a year, and given said local is, right now with reduced capacity, nowhere near profitable, that would cause an issue
 
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DB

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I'm sure I'm not alone.

You aren't alone. I just avoid all shops apart from large food shops now (you know where you stand with most of the supermarkets), and haven't been in any other type of retail establishment / cafe / pub for months. I simply cannot be bothered with the hassle around widely varied interpretations of rules on masks and tracing details, and I don't want to be treated like a leper or get some maskivist trying to pick an argument.
 

AM9

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I've installed the App and used it for the first time today on my swim at the local leisure centre. They have the QR code 'poster' on a stand in the entrance foyer. First, I scanned it using a QR code reader. Here is the text for anybody that's worried:
UKC19TRACING:1:eyJhbGciOiJFUzI1NiIsImtpZCI6IllycWVMVHE4ei1vZkg1bnpsYVNHbllSZkI5YnU5eVBsV1lVXzJiNnFYT1EifQ.eyJpZCI6IjVZMzMzVlA1Iiwib3BuIjoiV2VzdG1pbnN0ZXIgTG9kZ2UgTGVpc3VyZSBDZW50cmUiLCJ2dCI6IjAxMSIsInBjIjoiQUwxMkRMIn0.c8yisLP9UrWhoPHa1XgQv1By0PHnrYqHEgC-m68wiQMrc_M6ccEBxT8e36Q8GlbOcw5xPmKWYMm1wIwSR3fC2w
I then scanned it using the app. As I walked into the building, I then shut my phone down, - the reason:
the current 'distancing' rules for using the swimming pool require swimmers to arrive with the swimwear underneath their outdoor clothes and leave their clothes by the poolside. Throughout my time in the centre, I do not spend more than a few seconds near any other person and for just over 30 minutes I am in a pool filled with part chlorinated part salted water, - not a high risk infection environment.
My clothes, (including my mobile phone) are in a bag poolside, along with about 30 other swimmers' clothes. It would be misleading if my phone with it's app running had a friendly conversation with the phone(s) in the next bag(s) of clothes and convinced themselves that their owners had spent over 30 minutes quite close to each other. Then if one of these bag owners tested positive over the next few days, the alerts would kick in with (probably) a few unnecessary isolations.
 

alex397

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You aren't alone. I just avoid all shops apart from large food shops now (you know where you stand with most of the supermarkets), and haven't been in any other type of retail establishment / cafe / pub for months. I simply cannot be bothered with the hassle around widely varied interpretations of rules on masks and tracing details, and I don't want to be treated like a leper or get some maskivist trying to pick an argument.

Of course, the extra rules and the variations of rules between different companies, is quite annoying. But it isn’t exactly a huge hassle. I have been to various different shops, cafes and pubs over the last couple of months and haven’t had any issues.
I’d rather put up with these rules, so I can continue to enjoying visiting places, and support local businesses.
 

packermac

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For those that are concerned about the government tracking their movements or habits do you ever go out?
You must have an NI number, an NHS number, the Revenue will know what you earn, eBay will know what you look at, unless you do not have them loyalty cards will tell stores what you eat, use, where and when you fill your car. Border control will know when you return the county if you go overseas.
Do you think they care about which pubs you visit?
I do not have a smart phone as I detest touch screen technology. Which is why for example I have not updated my SLR. Touch screen is bad enough just having to use a TVM to collect a ticket or upload money to my Oyster and even that takes about two or three touches of the screen on each field to get it to work for me. My wife's tablet is just the same.
 

DB

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Of course, the extra rules and the variations of rules between different companies, is quite annoying. But it isn’t exactly a huge hassle. I have been to various different shops, cafes and pubs over the last couple of months and haven’t had any issues.

Presumably you wear a mask though? I can't, and hence am likely to get far more in the way of hassle.

I’d rather put up with these rules, so I can continue to enjoying visiting places, and support local businesses.

It shouldn't be presented as an either/or - that's what the government wants people to believe.

For those that are concerned about the government tracking their movements or habits do you ever go out?
You must have an NI number, an NHS number, the Revenue will know what you earn, eBay will know what you look at, unless you do not have them loyalty cards will tell stores what you eat, use, where and when you fill your car. Border control will know when you return the county if you go overseas.
Do you think they care about which pubs you visit?

All of that is true, and it's down to what level of surveillance people are prepared to tolerate, and can avoid - in some cases, such as the now all-pervasive use of CCTV, there's really nothing which any individual can do about it.

With this app, there is a lack of trust that the government won't use it for some unadvertised purpose.
 

alex397

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Presumably you wear a mask though? I can't, and hence am likely to get far more in the way of hassle.

Sorry, I didn’t realise you couldn’t wear one. In that case, I do sympathise. This is a worrying time for people with certain disabilities, and other reasons, who can’t wear masks.

On public transport, it seems relatively simple to travel without a mask - in my area at least. Bus drivers have been sympathetic to those who can’t wear masks, and I haven’t seen other passengers get funny about it.
There was one maskless passenger who seemed nervous about getting on the bus - “I’m really sorry but I can’t wear one, I’ve got this to show you...” And before she had got it out, the driver said in a jolly way “no, no don’t worry, just jump on”. Thankfully for drivers, they are not expected to challenge people.

It is different in shops and cafes etc, where people seem much stricter.
 

MikeWM

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But they ARE gaining control - slowly but surely - by building up the indea that it will become harder to participate in everyday life unless we install their app.

This needs to be resisted - otherwise, it will not go away once this is all over, it will be kept on and pushed into more scenarios.

I don’t think the app itself is necessarily the issue - what it does currently is fairly benign - but it is conditioning us to a behaviour of getting permission to enter places, where previously we would be expected to be able to enter freely unless there was a good reason not to.

The logical next step will be for the app (this one or another) to show whether we are *allowed* into places, based on whether we’ve passed a test recently and/or been vaccinated.

That’s not a conspiracy theory by the way, that’s the whole point of ‘operation moonshot’. It is declared Government policy.

Pretty much all the pieces are now in place for a Chinese-style social credit system, where you are only allowed to do what your phone says you are allowed to do, and I’m increasingly - sadly - convinced that is one of the hoped-for aims of all this. People should seriously consider whether that is the kind of society we want to live in before it is too late (if it isn’t already).
 

Scrotnig

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Pretty much all the pieces are now in place for a Chinese-style social credit system, where you are only allowed to do what your phone says you are allowed to do, and I’m increasingly - sadly - convinced that is one of the hoped-for aims of all this. People should seriously consider whether that is the kind of society we want to live in before it is too late (if it isn’t already).
Agreed. All you'll get from the majority of the public, however, is "as long as it keeps us all safe hun".
 

Bletchleyite

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With this app, there is a lack of trust that the government won't use it for some unadvertised purpose.

It's open source. Someone needs to do a source audit and confirm, for those concerned, that the nature of the app means they can't misuse it as it has no personal data in it for them to misuse.

Pretty much all the pieces are now in place for a Chinese-style social credit system, where you are only allowed to do what your phone says you are allowed to do, and I’m increasingly - sadly - convinced that is one of the hoped-for aims of all this. People should seriously consider whether that is the kind of society we want to live in before it is too late (if it isn’t already).

Just not the sort of thing a Tory Government would do. It's about as anti-Tory a policy as you can imagine.
 

43066

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You aren't, but you are in a tiny, tiny, tiny minority. Maybe double or triple figures across the country, I reckon, definitely not more than four figures. (I'm talking people who have a compliant smartphone but refuse to use the app, rather than people who don't have a compliant phone and can't afford/justify the cost of a new one).

I suspect the numbers are a lot higher than that. Anecdotally I know several people in this category, and 52 and counting have responded to the above poll, assuming those citing data/privacy concerns have compatible phones.

We will probably get more of an idea over the next few weeks when we can see how numbers of downloads compare to numbers of compliant phones in circulation.

It's open source. Someone needs to do a source audit and confirm, for those concerned, that the nature of the app means they can't misuse it as it has no personal data in it for them to misuse.

The trouble is those who don’t work in the technology field will lack the knowledge (and the inclination) to find this out for themselves. Many people are uncomfortable with idea of the government tracking/harvesting information about them (even if that isn’t what the app is actually doing), and understandably don’t trust a single word this government says!

Just not the sort of thing a Tory Government would do. It's about as anti-Tory a policy as you can imagine.

Or so we all thought up until about six months ago, which makes the government’s current approach all the more alarming and sinister!
 
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kez19

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Just opinion here, let’s say some point next year we all get back to normal, then what was the point in the apps if people delete them? Is the app(s) of all devolved governments temporarily or permanently as I have never heard anything in that regard. (just opinion on normality or close too), but I just think we maybe should be looking at the big picture, I don’t know either but I just use my own head in terms, I rarely look on internet but there is a bit of iffyness around it all

Just to also add even some in my workplace are clicking onto something not right (not just myself)
 
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bspahh

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Just opinion here, let’s say some point next year we all get back to normal, then what was the point in the apps if people delete them? Is the app(s) of all devolved governments temporarily or permanently as I have never heard anything in that regard. (just opinion on normality or close too), but I just think we maybe should be looking at the big picture, I don’t know either but I just use my own head in terms, I rarely look on internet but there is a bit of iffyness around it all

Just to also add even some in my workplace are clicking onto something not right (not just myself)

The point of the app is that right here, right now, you can get a warning of when you might have been infected with the virus.

This warning can be before you become infectious, and before you show any symptoms. If you isolate yourself on that warning, then you can avoid infecting others with the virus.

Isolation for one person costs money. Dealing with infections for lots of people, costs much more.
 

DB

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Isolation for one person costs money. Dealing with infections for lots of people, costs much more.

The point here is that the isolation for that one person costs them money, whereas if they go to work and end up infecting others it will cost others money.

It's hardly surprising that some people ignore symptoms, especialy if they feel OK. Of course, the authoritarian government response is to threaten them with the big stick of a heavy fine, rather than agreeing to cover any lost earnings.
 

kez19

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The point of the app is that right here, right now, you can get a warning of when you might have been infected with the virus.

This warning can be before you become infectious, and before you show any symptoms. If you isolate yourself on that warning, then you can avoid infecting others with the virus.

Isolation for one person costs money. Dealing with infections for lots of people, costs much more.

Well for me (not trying to be negative on this point) but I already had COVID (or if being polite about symptoms of..) back in March/April (I was off work and isolated for 14 days too) this year... I don't buy into downloading the app for now.

Yet you could argue the toss of people needing treatments, not getting dealt with, at a guess its a saving of money than helping people that need it? or on the other having being delayed on seeing doctors and dentists (underlying issues/mental health) aren't getting seen too but lets just put COVID at front of queue no matter?


The point here is that the isolation for that one person costs them money, whereas if they go to work and end up infecting others it will cost others money.

It's hardly surprising that some people ignore symptoms, especialy if they feel OK. Of course, the authoritarian government response is to threaten them with the big stick of a heavy fine, rather than agreeing to cover any lost earnings.


Yet none of this wasn't thought of back in March or sooner like December last year? (all governments had a heads up regardless) Yet wasn't it strange about maybe the same time the BBC and other news outlets were highlighting their credit system? (just in case anyone thinks I am having a go at the BBC, I am not as I remember it was highlighted on one of their news items or it was on "click" possibly?)

https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-...social-credit-system-and-why-it-controversial - piece is from August but I am sure it was earlier than this....
 
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bspahh

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Well for me (not trying to be negative on this point) but I already had COVID (or if being polite about symptoms of..) back in March/April (I was off work and isolated for 14 days too) this year... I don't buy into downloading the app for now.

You are assuming that you really had COVID, and that you are immune to the strains that are around today.

Even if you are immune, if you are in contact with someone with the virus, you can transmit the infection to a third person. If you use the app, people who have been in contact with you will get a warning, which could save them from passing on the infection, even if you ignore the warning to isolate. (corrected)
 
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kez19

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You are assuming that you really had COVID, and that you are immune to the strains that are around today.

Even if you are immune, if you are in contact with someone with the virus, you can transmit the infection to a third person. If you use the app, people who have been in contact with you will get a warning, which could save them from passing on the infection, even if you ignore the warning to isolate.


How can I assume? I went and got tested when I had symptoms, it came back positive, I was told to isolate for 14 days what else? I never said anything about being immune to the strains either!

Yes lets all just download an app, I rather just trust Google than anything by governments these days (I know Google aint any better either here!)

Yet the app idea wasn't thought of back then was it just like the whole masking up scenario!

So get the app get told to isolate, ignore the warning, but expect to get fined? Job done there aint it?
 

takno

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How can I assume? I went and got tested when I had symptoms, it came back positive, I was told to isolate for 14 days what else? I never said anything about being immune to the strains either!

Yes lets all just download an app, I rather just trust Google than anything by governments these days (I know Google aint any better either here!)

Yet the app idea wasn't thought of back then was it just like the whole masking up scenario!

So get the app get told to isolate, ignore the warning, but expect to get fined? Job done there aint it?
Google and Apple have been planning the capability since March at the latest, and the libraries to make it work were live within a month or two at the outside. We've even had the idea for a long time in the UK - the government just made an absolute mess of it and took forever to get it live
 

DB

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Google and Apple have been planning the capability since March at the latest, and the libraries to make it work were live within a month or two at the outside. We've even had the idea for a long time in the UK - the government just made an absolute mess of it and took forever to get it live

They refused to use the Google/Apple API intially and developed their own "world beating" app, which didn't work for reasons which those who actually knew about such things warned them of right from the beginning. Of course, the government were too arrogant to listen.

The reason for wanting their own system seemed to be largely that they could use it to collect lots of data.
 

kez19

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Google and Apple have been planning the capability since March at the latest, and the libraries to make it work were live within a month or two at the outside. We've even had the idea for a long time in the UK - the government just made an absolute mess of it and took forever to get it live


Don't get me wrong I heard about that chatter regarding Apple/Google, yet it was in iOS13 the exposure notifications appeared, its just a pity all these things the governments think of could have at least implemented at start of the year if it was that much of a concern, but like we all know last minute ditch lets change!

They refused to use the Google/Apple API intially and developed their own "world beating" app, which didn't work for reasons which those who actually knew about such things warned them of right from the beginning. Of course, the government were too arrogant to listen.


I believe I read that the Scottish Government app is ran by... Amazon....(Protect Scotland/Covid), up in Scotland in regards.... of data etc...https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18734001.only-nhs-access-snp-insists-amazon-not-getting-data-million-users-scotlands-test-protect-app/
 

DB

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I believe I read that the Scottish Government app is ran by... Amazon....(Protect Scotland/Covid)

Dunno, not looked at anything to do with that one - but Amazon is the world's largest hosting provider, so no great surprise if they are involved in some way or another.
 

talldave

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It's open source. Someone needs to do a source audit and confirm, for those concerned, that the nature of the app means they can't misuse it as it has no personal data in it for them to misuse.



Just not the sort of thing a Tory Government would do. It's about as anti-Tory a policy as you can imagine.
If that's what you think then I believe you’re deluded. The alarm bells should have been ringing weeks ago with legislation being forced upon us without democratic debate in Parliament, under the guise of an "emergency". Hmmm, wasn't it 10 days notice for mask wearing?

Project Fear seems to have blinded some people to the sudden & rapid erosion of our civil liberties.
 

Domh245

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Dunno, not looked at anything to do with that one - but Amazon is the world's largest hosting provider, so no great surprise if they are involved in some way or another.

Bingo

The document highlights that the "personal information" being a mobile phone number, estimated date of infection, an authorisation code, the IP address, the exposure notification and confirmation of app use will go to the NHS.

Included as a "party with whom personal information is shared" is Amazon Web Services "who host the app" under contract with the NHS.


ie, the data is being stored on a server farm run by Amazon Web Services, nothing sinister about that as like you say they're the largest hosting provider. Jeff Bezos isn't going through your data to try and flog you things on Amazon (the one that most people think of)
 

island

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You are assuming that you really had COVID, and that you are immune to the strains that are around today.

Even if you are immune, if you are in contact with someone with the virus, you can transmit the infection to a third person. If you use the app, people who have been in contact with you will get a warning, which could save them from passing on the infection, even if you ignore the warning to isolate.
I don’t believe that’s the case. As I understand it, the app will only notify close contacts of people who test positive for COVID19, not close contacts of the close contacts.

As with many of these things however I cannot say for certain that I have kept myself fully up to date.
 

DB

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ie, the data is being stored on a server farm run by Amazon Web Services, nothing sinister about that as like you say they're the largest hosting provider. Jeff Bezos isn't going through your data to try and flog you things on Amazon (the one that most people think of)

Something like two-thirds of Amazon's income is from their server businesses - something which many aren't even aware exists as it's not really a public-facing service - nearly all their customers are other companies (including governments).
 

takno

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Something like two-thirds of Amazon's income is from their server businesses - something which many aren't even aware exists as it's not really a public-facing service - nearly all their customers are other companies (including governments).
I've certainly run up bills of a few hundred thousand a month on Amazon Web services, which is a good bit more than I tend to spend on deliveries
 

kez19

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Something like two-thirds of Amazon's income is from their server businesses - something which many aren't even aware exists as it's not really a public-facing service - nearly all their customers are other companies (including governments).


Call me cynical here but this can't be coincedence in terms that (and am assuming) that basically England/Wales and Scotland app are ran by Amazon? I do admit I use Amazon for certain items but its not as much as use too but I didn't know anything like this they do were government related....

I haven't got the app(s) installed but they may as well just have the opening screen.... Welcome to (area covering) powered by Amazon...
 

DB

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Call me cynical here but this can't be coincedence in terms that (and am assuming) that basically England/Wales and Scotland app are ran by Amazon? I do admit I use Amazon for certain items but its not as much as use too but I didn't know anything like this they do were government related....

Amazon is the largest player in this market, so it wouldn't be much of a coincidence (I've not looked to see who is hosting what).

Microsoft is in second place, and gaining ground but quite a way behind. Google is the third.
 
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