Enhanced Passenger Speeds/Service WCML post HS2

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adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
While looking at both the south and north sections of the London and North Western Sectional Appendices, I have noticed that for the route mainly north of Preston, there is only a five mile difference in terms of maximum speed (for example, 105 normal, 110 EPS).

Is it intended to have these equalised post HS2, or would it not be worth it for a very tiny difference as it is already at a three figure digit?

Also, for the London Euston - Crewe/Preston section, is it intended for everything to be timed for 110mph pre-Pendolino days, or will there still be 125mph on the not so curvy sections?

One last question - would the track equipment (I think it may be TASS - whatever that is short for) that tells when/enables the train to tilt be removed?
 
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hexagon789

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While looking at both the south and north sections of the London and North Western Sectional Appendices, I have noticed that for the route mainly north of Preston, there is only a five mile difference in terms of maximum speed (for example, 105 normal, 110 EPS).

Is it intended to have these equalised post HS2, or would it not be worth it for a very tiny difference as it is already at a three figure digit?

Also, for the London Euston - Crewe/Preston section, is it intended for everything to be timed for 110mph pre-Pendolino days, or will there still be 125mph on the not so curvy sections?

One last question - would the track equipment (I think it may be TASS - whatever that is short for) that tells when/enables the train to tilt be removed?
Network Rail have been looking into raising non-EPS speeds north and south of Preston, particularly those south thereof where the Avanti Hitachi units, which don't tilt, will run to offset the journey time difference.

Nothing has been formally introduced but I believe the work is ongoing.

As to post-HS2 it seems likely the TASS balises will be removed and tilt done away with, there no longer being a need for the WCML itself to sustain as fast journey times as at present.
 

Huntergreed

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While looking at both the south and north sections of the London and North Western Sectional Appendices, I have noticed that for the route mainly north of Preston, there is only a five mile difference in terms of maximum speed (for example, 105 normal, 110 EPS).

Is it intended to have these equalised post HS2, or would it not be worth it for a very tiny difference as it is already at a three figure digit?

Also, for the London Euston - Crewe/Preston section, is it intended for everything to be timed for 110mph pre-Pendolino days, or will there still be 125mph on the not so curvy sections?

One last question - would the track equipment (I think it may be TASS - whatever that is short for) that tells when/enables the train to tilt be removed?
Bear in mind the maximum for conventional units is 110, and there are a good few sections of 125 or 120 running (Almost all of Preston - Lancaster, Lancaster - Milnthorpe, Plumpton - Southwaite, Lockerbie - Beattock, Lamington - Carstairs) where the EPS would be 10/15mph above the conventional speed limit.

After HS2 is introduced, as far as I am away the plan is to simply get rid of tilt.

Does this mean that the speed limit could be upped to 125 for conventional units? Maybe. There are certainly sections that seem straight enough for this to happen, but it really is a case of waiting and seeing what happens I'm afraid.
 

swt_passenger

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EPS actually stands for “Enhanced Permissible Speed” doesn't it, rather than “passenger”?

TASS stands for “Tilt and Speed Supervision” (System), according to my ‘Ellis’ encyclopaedia, but I think I’ve also seen it written as Tilt Approval (and) Speed Supervision. Approval should probably be Authorisation though...
 
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hexagon789

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EPS actually stands for “Enhanced Permissible Speed” doesn't it, rather than “passenger”?

TASS stands for “Tilt and Speed Supervision” (System), according to my ‘Ellis’ encyclopaedia, but I think I’ve also seen it written as Tilt Approval (and) Speed Supervision.
EPS is Enhanced Permissible Speed
TASS is Tilt And Speed Supervision

Bear in mind the maximum for conventional units is 110, and there are a good few sections of 125 or 120 running (Almost all of Preston - Lancaster, Lancaster - Milnthorpe, Plumpton - Southwaite, Lockerbie - Beattock, Lamington - Carstairs) where the EPS would be 10/15mph above the conventional speed limit.

After HS2 is introduced, as far as I am away the plan is to simply get rid of tilt.

Does this mean that the speed limit could be upped to 125 for conventional units? Maybe. There are certainly sections that seem straight enough for this to happen, but it really is a case of waiting and seeing what happens I'm afraid.
I understood it wasn't simply 'maybe' - rather studies were being done but various factors have delayed it
 

Boodiggy

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TASS is Tilt Authorisation & Speed Supervision.
Regarding EPS and PS speeds, Phase 1 will look at Euston - Weaver and Phase 2 will be Weaver - Glasgow so there is work happening. Once the 221s are gone so will the EPS differentials, and there are proposals to introduce more MU speeds so all units (including 390s rated as MU as part of the plans for when running non-tilt) will be able to run at higher speeds following the completion of the project.
Also just because a section is straight it doesn’t mean line speed can be increased, things like signal spacing/sighting, OHLE gradients / type and track construction plus many other things need considered. Also some sections would be so short there would be little benefit.
 

mcmad

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there is also the not unsubstantial issue of who is going to pay for it all, even speed board changes aren't that cheap.
 

The Planner

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there is also the not unsubstantial issue of who is going to pay for it all, even speed board changes aren't that cheap.
Avanti are paying for the Euston Weaver work which is quite advanced now. There are no plans to remove EPS in the future as it stands.
 

The Planner

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What work is being done on this section?
Effectively just speed boards, but as much as people just think its swapping or adding new ones, it is a tad more involved. I know that sighting has been an issue in a few places.
 

Cheshire Scot

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Avanti are paying for the Euston Weaver work which is quite advanced now. There are no plans to remove EPS in the future as it stands.
That makes sense as their new trains have been reported for use on Euston Liverpool (electric) and Euston Chester/North Wales (bi mode) rather than Anglo Scottish routes which presumably would then go fully 390 with sets released off the Liverpool route to enable the release of the 221s.
 

The Planner

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Ok, thanks. Is it in the sectional appendix yet (or some other publicly accessible location)?
It isnt due to be on the ground until the end of 21 early 22 so you won't see it in any documentation yet.
 

seagull

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Will 390s finally be classed as MU henceforth, I wonder? As currently they are not allowed to do 125 between Wolves-Stafford or Rugby-Coventry when non-tilt, where a 221 can.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Will 390s finally be classed as MU henceforth, I wonder? As currently they are not allowed to do 125 between Wolves-Stafford or Rugby-Coventry when non-tilt, where a 221 can.
Don't know about 390s at MU speeds, but Wolves-Stafford is 125 EPS as well as MU so 390s can do 125 there.
221 EPS differential speeds are going to be irrelevant soon when the 80x arrive, though it might be 2023 before all the 221s go.

HS2 won't impact south of Crewe as its trains (largely) won't be using the classic line out of Euston, and it's 7+ years away anyway.
I doubt anything will change on the ground until a Network Change has been consulted on and agreed.
The impact of a new speed profile on the WCML is more than a private matter between NR and Avanti.
 

Purple Orange

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If all services south of Manchester & Wigan were to be capped at a maximum of 110 mph, or all services timetabled for uniform speeds, what benefit could we see compared to having a mix of 125 mph and 110mph services? Could it result in an increase in total services and how many more services should we expect to see?
 

edwin_m

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TASS is Tilt Authorisation & Speed Supervision.
Regarding EPS and PS speeds, Phase 1 will look at Euston - Weaver and Phase 2 will be Weaver - Glasgow so there is work happening. Once the 221s are gone so will the EPS differentials, and there are proposals to introduce more MU speeds so all units (including 390s rated as MU as part of the plans for when running non-tilt) will be able to run at higher speeds following the completion of the project.
Also just because a section is straight it doesn’t mean line speed can be increased, things like signal spacing/sighting, OHLE gradients / type and track construction plus many other things need considered. Also some sections would be so short there would be little benefit.
There is now talk of replacing Preston/Carlisle/Motherwell power signalling (nearly 50 years old) with ETCS, which would remove the signalling constraints.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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This is all a decade away, surely, triggered by HS2 opening?
Crewe/Warrington are in the mix too, but Warrington and Preston PSBs control far larger areas than the WCML route.
As I understand it, Motherwell (ie virtually all of the WCML in Scotland) has only just been resignalled into Glasgow (Cowlairs), as part of the Newton/Rutherglen scheme.

Thinking about it, I doubt there will be any shut down of tilt/TASS/EPS if the new speed profile extends journey times before HS2 opens.
The 390s still have at least a decade of life in them with the upcoming refurbishment.
It all depends on how much of the WCML can be run non-tilt at 125mph, by 390s as much as 80x, with 390s representing 75% of the fleet capacity.
 

The Planner

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Warrington, Preston and Carlisle are touted for ETCS, I would suspect at least one of those being done prior to HS2 opening. Crewe is on the maybe list.
 

edwin_m

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This is all a decade away, surely, triggered by HS2 opening?
Crewe/Warrington are in the mix too, but Warrington and Preston PSBs control far larger areas than the WCML route.
As I understand it, Motherwell (ie virtually all of the WCML in Scotland) has only just been resignalled into Glasgow (Cowlairs), as part of the Newton/Rutherglen scheme.

Thinking about it, I doubt there will be any shut down of tilt/TASS/EPS if the new speed profile extends journey times before HS2 opens.
The 390s still have at least a decade of life in them with the upcoming refurbishment.
It all depends on how much of the WCML can be run non-tilt at 125mph, by 390s as much as 80x, with 390s representing 75% of the fleet capacity.
Has Motherwell been re-signalled or just re-controlled? If re-signalled it may be "ETCS ready" which means that it can be converted fairly easily, which can allow higher speeds without another full re-signalling.

Yes, I expect the 390s to continue until partially replaced by HS2, when a decision can be made about what type of stock is used on the remaining WCML-only services. I suspect this won't include tilt. A sensible plan would be to work towards maximising speeds for non-tilting trains, which the 397s can exploit in the meantime, as letting them follow the preceding Pendolino more closely probably creates a smidgen more capacity for freight. But the railway doesn't always follow sensible plans.
 

swt_passenger

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I might be getting a few threads mixed up, but didn’t we also have this discussion a little while ago with respect to the 805/807‘s lack of tilt, and previously to that about the TPE 397s?

But isn’t it all fundamentally the same issue, increasing speeds where they can for non-tilt stock?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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But isn’t it all fundamentally the same issue, increasing speeds where they can for non-tilt stock?

Yes, but that's different from believing there is a plan to dump tilt in the next year or two, on the basis that the redesigned non-tilt route will be equally fast.
80x units will only represent a minority of Avanti services, with 390s still forming the bulk.
 

Roast Veg

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I imagine that a 390 with tilt isolated long term (a la XC 221s) is much cheaper to maintain than one without.
 

edwin_m

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I imagine that a 390 with tilt isolated long term (a la XC 221s) is much cheaper to maintain than one without.
But what would this achieve? Do it before HS2 and you decelerate some of the country's main intercity services, unless nearly all non-tilt speeds have been raised close to tilting speeds which is very unlikely. Do it after HS2 and the Pendolinos are pretty much ready for replacement anyway.
 

Purple Orange

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But what would this achieve? Do it before HS2 and you decelerate some of the country's main intercity services, unless nearly all non-tilt speeds have been raised close to tilting speeds which is very unlikely. Do it after HS2 and the Pendolinos are pretty much ready for replacement anyway.
You could do it after HS2 but run the pendolinos for longer than expected, just like the exhausted HST. That said, the Pendolinos are probably the wrong type of train for the WCML post HS2. On the legacy routes currently served by Avanti on the WCML I think it should see 8-car 350s or AT200s in 2+2 formation, running with several more stops and doors at thirds.
 
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