Entire 800/801/802 fleet stood down for safety checks

[24Grange]

and decide "never again" and drive next time.

 

[fgwrich]

With Aluminium repairs you would are looking at AC TIG welding rather than the more common DC TIG Welding. The AC TIG equipment is 5x more expensive and really doesn't agree with electrical equipment, hence Roger's comments.

Given the depth of the cracks welding could just be described as the equivalent of not much more than papering over the cracks and would be a temporary fix.

If they are anything like the Yaw Damper Cracks, I wouldn’t want to be just papering over those cracks. The ultrasonic NDT testing revealed cracks up to 15mm, which for a pretty new train, is not a good figure to have.

 

[hwl]

If they are anything like the Yaw Damper Cracks, I wouldn’t want to be just papering over those cracks. The ultrasonic NDT testing revealed cracks up to 15mm, which for a pretty new train, is not a good figure to have.

It would just be buying time till a bigger fix unless they were caught early.

 

[geoffk]

GWR cancelled all long distance trains today - and saying no replacement transport. What about people who are away from home for business or other reason and need to return home? Different situation to people starting out.

And no through trains to Exeter on South Western all weekend because of planned engineering work in Salisbury area. Perhaps Network Rail should cancel tomorrow's work to give some folk at least an alternative.

 

[backontrack]

Cracks in the jacking points it seems.

Back, sack, or the jack cracks?

 

[Uk125]

i notice TPE 802 between newcastle and liverpool are running as normal? am i missing something?

my mistake, they were cancelled. i was actually looking at st helens central to liverpool (class 397!)

 

[bus man]

The other problem earlier on today was at least one TOC not having this issue high lighted on its home page it was buried. It took while 10am for it to be highlighted on home page

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

i notice TPE 802 between newcastle and liverpool are running as normal? am i missing something?

Not according to their web site.
Random cancellations - alternative ticket acceptance in place.
But that is at least better then their earlier "do not travel" advice.
Maybe they are covering with at least some 185s.

 

[cactustwirly]

Whilst I think many people are doing their absolute best at keeping as many people as they can moving it’s a real shame that we have already got reports of ....

*refunds being refused because the train was reinstated and people were told not to travel

*tickets being rejected on alternative operators services despite it being an official alternative.

*lots of people being charged admin fees.

*passengers being told to use delay repay when they don’t travel (cracking fraud case coming up in September 2022, I look forward to the thread)

* passengers told that they must have a new seat reservation or they can’t travel, then the actual trains that run being a free for all

*passengers thrown off at random stations due to overcrowding

* people made to surrender their advance singles and buy SVRs for a service 2 hours later. Then having their refund on their original train rejected.

It’s a real shame that these sorts of issues (which are nearly all resolved with a fight) do seem to crop up every single time there is disruption anywhere.

little wonder passengers get angry.

Yes that is very poor

 

[55002]

LNER have 13 class 801s out running now, plus 2 800s.

 

[JonathanH]

If there are plenty of unaffected carriages, in a similar situlation HSTs would have presumably offered a bit more flexibility in putting together useable rakes from what was available. (And loco hauled rolling stock perhaps even more so).

No, they were operated as fixed formation sets - while it may have been possible to knock out a defective coach a wholesale reformation of HST or and other stock simply wouldn't have happened. Any idea that something else would have happened is just looking back with rose-tinted glasses.

 

[43066]

Is the safety issue an actual structural concern, or is it more that pieces might fly off at high speed? The speed of the inspections might suggest the latter?

 

[Uk125]

Not according to their web site.
Random cancellations - alternative ticket acceptance in place.
But that is at least better then their earlier "do not travel" advice.
Maybe they are covering with at least some 185s.

yeah i edited my post

 

[fgwrich]

Is the safety issue an actual structural concern, or is it more that pieces might fly off at high speed? The speed of the inspections might suggest the latter?

I would say very much safety critical if you want something to connect the bogies / suspension on to!

It’s a shame the forum doesn’t allow video uploads like it does for photos - I can and always agree with the comments regarding the terrible ride quality and the various bangs you get from crossing points etc at speed, as I was reminded of last week crossing Dolphin Junction at full line speed.

 

[Snow1964]

Sorry if I have missed it in 15 pages, but what changed overnight, as yesterday they were ok to run, today only ok after inspection

Its not like cracks only form between midnight and 4am, so there has to have been a event that led to issuing an urgent stop and inspect instruction.

 

[Master29]

Blimey! Just catching up.with this one. Glad this is happening at a time where rail demand remains low.

However, passenger numbers are picking up and will continue to do so over the next few weeks so timing rather unfortunate in that respect.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not according to their web site.
Random cancellations - alternative ticket acceptance in place.
But that is at least better then their earlier "do not travel" advice.
Maybe they are covering with at least some 185s.

They've got enough 185s to run near enough the whole service (well, the pre-80x service) provided they're all single ones, as that's what they actually did with it for a period of time pre-350. OK, they had the 170s then, but they've got the 397s now.

I believe further to that all drivers and guards on TPE still sign 185s (plus either 397, 802 or Mk5 but not all of them).

 

[AdamWW]

No, they were operated as fixed formation sets - while it may have been possible to knock out a defective coach a wholesale reformation of HST or and other stock simply wouldn't have happened. Any idea that something else would have happened is just looking back with rose-tinted glasses.

Hmmm.

I always assumed that the mixed livery rakes that have appeared during livery changes were due to coaches being swapped between sets. Maybe I'm wrong and they painted/vinyled coaches one at a time in random order.

But that doesn't explain the GWR HSTs I've travelled on with wrong coach lettering even to the extent (more than once) of a declassified 1st class coach in the middle of standard class, or (going back a few years admittedly) rakes with a TGS at each end.

Or last year an Anglia loco hauled train with a random quiet coach in the middle as well as in the usual place at the end.

Putting it another way - if, say, 20% of the coaches were unavailable, what would prevent them from making up as many usable rakes as possible out of what was left?

 

[43066]

I would say very much safety critical if you want something to connect the bogies / suspension on to!

Either would be safety critical (derailments aren’t great, but neither are lumps of metal flying off as a train passes through a platform at 125mph!).

Intuitively it just seems that the second risk might be easier to rule out with a visual inspection than something more insidious, but less visible, that could cause a derailment.

I might he barking up completely the wrong tree of course!

 

[hwl]

And no through trains to Exeter on South Western all weekend because of planned engineering work in Salisbury area. Perhaps Network Rail should cancel tomorrow's work to give some folk at least an alternative.

Not in the middle of a major junction rebuild.

The second of five consecutive whole weekend closures at Salisbury.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hmmm.

I always assumed that the mixed livery rakes that have appeared during livery changes were due to coaches being swapped between sets.

It is, yes. While coaches weren't swapped around on a daily basis they certainly could be and were in depots when needed.

Also true of Mk3 sets. Go past Neasden (or wherever it is Chiltern keep theirs somewhere near there) and there are a load of random coaches and DVTs lying around.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

Sorry if I have missed it in 15 pages, but what changed overnight, as yesterday they were ok to run, today only ok after inspection

Its not like cracks only form between midnight and 4am, so there has to have been a event that led to issuing an urgent stop and inspect instruction.

That’s because an 800 was found to have “severe” cracks on the welding on “multiple” jacking points (i.e. what’s used to lift the tra at Stoke Gifford last night.

This is different to the yaw dampener issue that the CAF fleet are facing.

Hitachi ordered a stop/the withdrawal of all the trains from service until an engineer could go out and inspect them.
Some sets had similar defects in both the GW and EC fleets, so they were withdrawn, but others didn’t - this meant they could be put back into service.

 

[Watershed]

They've got enough 185s to run near enough the whole service (well, the pre-80x service) provided they're all single ones, as that's what they actually did with it for a period of time pre-350. OK, they had the 170s then, but they've got the 397s now.

Just because you have enough trains, in theory, doesn't mean that you can simply substitute one train for another. You need crew that sign it, the ability to match the performance of the substituted unit, and if it goes on for more than a few hours, stabling facilities in the right place where you can keep them.

 

[Bikeman78]

given the problem is affecting both LNER and TPE as well as GWR and HT, this is an industry wide problem.

LNER and TPE are reunnong buses between newcastle and York, some TPE services are in the hands of 185s and mutual ticket acceptance is in place. XC have stated only flexible tickets are being accepted as capacity is limited. There is only so much that can be done until each unit is examined and accepted back in to traffic. I cant see this returning to normal until Monday given the size of the fleets involved

I'd forgotten that the Newcastle TPE trains are 802s. In my mind they are still 185s.

I note that GTR are accepting tickets between London and Peterborough. Hopefully LNER will return the favour when the time comes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just because you have enough trains, in theory, doesn't mean that you can simply substitute one train for another. You need crew that sign it, as well as stabling facilities where you can keep them.

In my understanding all TPE crews sign 185s. Getting and keeping them in the right place may be a challenge, though, as you say. However they do seem to be getting a service going using them.

 

[ashkeba]

Most journeys on East Coast can be covered not using their services. The worst bit will be between Newcastle and Edinburgh.

Great Westen is worse with 'network holes' between Didcot and Bristol Parkway / Bath Spa / Gloucester, between Oxford and Worcester and between Newbury and Taunton.

LNER are the only operator Grantham-Newark-Doncaster too. A slow detour via Lincoln is possible but very low capacity.

 

[Killingworth]

Most journeys on East Coast can be covered not using their services. The worst bit will be between Newcastle and Edinburgh.

I'd not be too worried about Newcastle- Edinburgh.

XC are unaffected.

TPE expect to have a normal service operating by tomorrow but today is wrecked with crews and units in wrong positions after checking. Apparently no faults found on first units checked. (They could redeploy some 185s from South Pennine if necessary.)

LNER are providing more services as the day goes by.

Clearly a nasty shock to have to manage early this morning, but hopefully not as severe as it may have at first seemed. Always best to play safe until everything checked.

 

[O L Leigh]

Cracks in the jacking points it seems.

Have we a source for this yet...?

 

[Watershed]

In my understanding all TPE crews sign 185s. Getting and keeping them in the right place may be a challenge, though, as you say.

They don't anymore, unfortunately.

 

[ashkeba]

and decide "never again" and drive next time.

Just like people give up driving after the first time a road is closed by a crash. That is to say it does not happen.