Entire 800/801/802 fleet stood down for safety checks

[43096]

Yes sorry, I should have said enough units... with a little help.

It will be interesting to see what happens after the King's Cross work finishes in early June: will there just be the two planned Class 91 turns or will more be required on an ad-hoc basis. Slightly ironic seeing the 91s being used to bail their replacements out given the periodic shortages that affected the 91s over the years that forced hire-ins of Class 90s and HST sets at various times.

Should also be noted that the current situation is the peak of what Detachi will be able to deliver before the permanent repairs start - there's always the chance of further sets developing the cracks and having to be stood down.

 

[HST274]

Do they know how to repaire them yet and if so when will they start?

 

[Roger B]

Do they know how to repaire them yet and if so when will they start?

From what's been posted to date, it looks as though they're still trying to confirm the root cause(s) of the problem, and only when that's concluded can they move into solutions.

 

[43094]

LNER have had a number of 5-car units running instead of 9-car this week, on the grounds that something is better than nothing. Where two 5-cars are available, it’s also led to 10-car vice 9-car running.

The 91 fleet is also being used to fill gaps, it’s likely a couple of sets will be out most days where available.

The timetable has also had a small number of further planned reductions /amendments each day, to enable all remaining services to be covered.

It’s too early to tell what the impact will be on the June TT - the situation has gradually worsened over the course of this week, so it’s a case of all available hands to the pump and see where that takes everyone, at the moment.

 

[Horizon22]

Thank you for that information. If it is indeed Stress Corrosion Cracking, would that be stresses from on-going operations and maintenance activity? Or residual stresses created in the metal during manufacture that were never relieved by, say, annealing? Or is it too early to say?

I have read something that suggested they were suspectible to this from manufacture.

 

[HSTEd]

From nuclear experience - if Stress Corrosion Cracking wishes to occur, it will occur and there is nothing that can be done to stop it.

You may wish to make sacrifices to appease it.

I am only semi joking.

 

[hwl]

I have read something that suggested they were susceptible to this from manufacture.

Agreed.

The T5 heat treatment of the alloy indicates no solution heat treatment post hot roll /extrusion followed by forced air cooling with later artificial aging. This significantly increases the risk of residual stress and SCC problems (vs T6 with solution (v. high temp for 2 mins) heat treatment) but decreases costs and the risk of components deforming during solution heat treatment (achieved using fluidised bed or induction etc.).

From nuclear experience - if Stress Corrosion Cracking wishes to occur, it will occur and there is nothing that can be done to stop it.

You may wish to make sacrifices to appease it.

I am only semi joking.

Going for T5 might be politely described as a school boy/girl error and other risk increasing features could have been designed out but weren't.

 

[Crun]

Does anyone know when LNER will have all their Azumas back in service?

 

[rebmcr]

Does anyone know when LNER will have all their Azumas back in service?

Not a single person on the planet knows that. You can expect it to be measured in years, though.

 

[Crun]

Not a single person on the planet knows that. You can expect it to be measured in years, though.

That bad? Have LNER managed to return a number of Azumas back into service if found free of cracks?

 

[skyhigh]

That bad? Have LNER managed to return a number of Azumas back into service if found free of cracks?

Yes.

 

[Bald Rick]

That bad? Have LNER managed to return a number of Azumas back into service if found free of cracks?

They have returned many to service with cracks.

 

[35B]

That bad? Have LNER managed to return a number of Azumas back into service if found free of cracks?

They have returned many to service with cracks.

The whole point of what is happening is that the cracks are being closely monitored so that only those sets which do have cracks sufficient to make them unsafe are being kept out of service. Research is underway to identify the precise causes of this, and how it can be fixed bearing in mind the properties of the materials the carriages are made from.

We don't know when that research will be complete, and until it is, no one can start thinking what repairs will be necessary or how long it will take to do them. But I would personally be surprised if they are complete before 2023.

 

[Luke McDonnell]

Just asking if TPX have all of their Nova 1/Class 802 back in service on their allocated routes i.e. is Liverpool-Newcastle still 802 also asking what happened to these services when they were temporarily withdrawn were 185s or Mk5 substituted or did the services get cancelled?

A bit OT but also asking if TPX have catering back on thier services?

 

[Watershed]

Just asking if TPX have all of their Nova 1/Class 802 back in service on their allocated routes i.e. is Liverpool-Newcastle still 802 also asking what happened to these services when they were temporarily withdrawn were 185s or Mk5 substituted or did the services get cancelled?

A bit OT but also asking if TPX have catering back on thier services?

Yes, all 802/2 services are now back to normal. Some services were initially substituted by 185s; there was then an emergency timetable introduced on 11 May which curtailed services to Liverpool-York (to reduce the number of units required, as well as to allow easier 185 substitution if needed). The normal timetable resumed on 13 May.

No catering at the moment.

 

[spark001uk]

No catering at the moment.

Seems the cautious approach most TOCs are still taking, although I have heard some trolley services are resuming, eg LNER?

 

[DanNCL]

Yes, all 802/2 services are now back to normal. Some services were initially substituted by 185s; there was then an emergency timetable introduced on 11 May which curtailed services to Liverpool-York (to reduce the number of units required, as well as to allow easier 185 substitution if needed). The normal timetable resumed on 13 May.

No catering at the moment.

There's still the odd 185 appearing on the Liverpool - Newcastle route in place of 802s

 

[Killingworth]

There's still the odd 185 appearing on the Liverpool - Newcastle route in place of 802s

Which may explain why some South Pennine services are back down to single units. Not currently a problem as loadings remain light.

 

[73128]

Do we know which sets, other than GWR's 800013, are currently stopped (with all operators)?

 

[JonathanH]

Do we know which sets, other than GWR's 800013, are currently stopped (with all operators)?

The following have not been reported in service on the line ups shown on the gen group https://groups.io/g/Class-800-Series/ since the problem broke. Clearly this isn't definitive, it was just by searching the numbers quickly.

800005/10/13/16/17/19/22/24/26/34
800306/07/08
802005
802108
800104/05
801101
801205/07/13/14/28/30

All others have been.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The GWR list (as at 0600 this morning) of YB/Jacking Pad cracked "stoppers" was as follows;

800004/05/13/16/19/24/26/34, 800306/07/08, 802005/12. Nearly all have been stopped due to the YB (Yaw Bolster) issue.

800017/22, 802108 have been stopped with other issues. 800010 was meant to be having a YB paint repair (but could also be faulty) and 800011/31 were awaiting NDT. Today was a very good day for units stopped awaiting an NDT, which has to be done following any adverse finding on the daily inspection.

 

[Atomix330]

Are the cracks on every coach within every unit? Could there be some shuffling of carriages within units to reduce faults/account for accidents etc?

 

[Class 170101]

Are the cracks on every coach within every unit? Could there be some shuffling of carriages within units to reduce faults/account for accidents etc?

These are fixed units unlike say the Mark II or Mark III Coaches so extremely unlikely if not impossible.

 

[aar0]

These are fixed units unlike say the Mark II or Mark III Coaches so extremely unlikely if not impossible.

Although I believe the specification called for the ability to be split and remarshalled with relative ease - though I’ve not heard of it done. The TMS supposedly supports any number of carriage to cover possible future extensions to train sets.

 

[swt_passenger]

Although I believe the specification called for the ability to be split and remarshalled with relative ease - though I’ve not heard of it done. The TMS supposedly supports any number of carriage to cover possible future extensions to train sets.

Any number up to 312m max length, ie 12 cars.

 

[Irascible]

Although I believe the specification called for the ability to be split and remarshalled with relative ease - though I’ve not heard of it done. The TMS supposedly supports any number of carriage to cover possible future extensions to train sets.

I wonder what the specification of "relative ease" was in this case...

 

[40129]

I wonder what the specification of "relative ease" was in this case...

Probably that it should be easier than it was to insert extra cars in the Pendelino sets but not so easy that individual cars can be swapped in and out on a daily basis

 

[Annetts key]

I wonder what the specification of "relative ease" was in this case...

They sometimes have trouble splitting two joined five car sets at Temple Meads...

 

[D6130]

They sometimes have trouble splitting two joined five car sets at Temple Meads...

This may be because of the relatively sharp curvature of the track. We often used to have problems coupling and uncoupling 333s (Scharfenberg couplers) and Pacers/Sprinters (BSI couplers) on curves.

 

[edwin_m]

Although I believe the specification called for the ability to be split and remarshalled with relative ease - though I’ve not heard of it done. The TMS supposedly supports any number of carriage to cover possible future extensions to train sets.

All the cars in the set have done the same mileage, so if one car with one of the three designs of bolster has cracks then the others in the set with the same design will probably be in a similar state before long. And I doubt you end up with a viable set if you try to form one up that excludes one of the designs.