Entire 800/801/802 fleet stood down for safety checks

[swt_passenger]

As @FGW_DID has already said, this has been mentioned before... and that the bodyshells are made out of Aluminium and not Steel !

I think it was also noted before that the firm named Kobe Steel also made dodgy aluminium…

 

[LOL The Irony]

Is this issue something that would be of interest to RAIB, or is it outwith their brief? Their website states they investigate accidents and incidents from which something can be learned, which I’m not sure if that would apply exactly here

If this resulted in something falling off in service, then yes. Although there's nothing stopping them getting involved if they thought this posed a serious risk to the safe operation of the railway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah.... I hadn’t twigged they had acquired one of the sets with modified jumpers at the outer ends. Not the smartest acquisition as they’re not compatible with LSL’s own power cars let alone GWR’s. If I was LSL I’d be delighted if GWR would swap the sockets!

Here's me thinking it was a Long Swing Links* set, completely forgetting who owns it! Thanks for clarifying

* There are two types of Mk3, long swing link and short swing link. The former fouls third rail so can't be used over it. It relates to a bogie component.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I think it was also noted before that the firm named Kobe Steel also made dodgy aluminium…

This is also very interesting from April last year, as it points to the fact that Hitachi Metals themselves were found to be falsifying things themselves going back 10 years, never mind Kobe as a supplier

Quality Test Fraud Found at Hitachi Metals

Tokyo, April 28 (Jiji Press)--Hitachi Metals Ltd. has been found to have falsified quality test results…

www.nippon.com

Hitachi Metals Ltd. has been found to have falsified quality test results for specialty steel and other products, and submitted inspection reports including the manipulated data to client companies.

The malpractice started more than 10 years ago, the major subsidiary of Japanese machinery giant Hitachi Ltd. said Monday.

About 170 companies have bought the products, including specialty steel for auto parts and magnets used in motors for home appliances.

Hitachi Metals will set up a special committee comprising outside experts to thoroughly look into the issue. The investigation panel will come up with a report in several months.

The company had conducted an in-house probe after being informed in January of suspected test data manipulation for specialty steel.

It says Steel and other products, and you'd have to be weary what other could include.

 

[Steve Harris]

I think it was also noted before that the firm named Kobe Steel also made dodgy aluminium…

Indeed, but the poster's post I was replying to implied the trains are made out of steel ! I was merely pointing that out.

 

[swt_passenger]

Indeed, but the poster's post I was replying to implied the trains are made out of steel ! I was merely pointing that out.

Oh sorry, I see that now. He had wrtten as though it was a steel issue.

 

[Steve Harris]

No worries.

This is also very interesting from April last year, as it points to the fact that Hitachi Metals themselves were found to be falsifying things themselves going back 10 years, never mind Kobe as a supplier

Quality Test Fraud Found at Hitachi Metals

Tokyo, April 28 (Jiji Press)--Hitachi Metals Ltd. has been found to have falsified quality test results…

www.nippon.com

It says Steel and other products, and you'd have to be weary what other could include.

It could include, Stainless Steel and various grades of Tool Steels (which are all steel alloys). And of course "other" could also refer to Aluminium (if they were making that as well).

 

[Clarence Yard]

I can confirm. Should be decided by tomorrow afternoon.

So can I, although the ORR want the TOCs, as duty holders, to ensure they have signed it off through their established internal validation procedures as well. Baring a last minute hitch in the whole discussion, this all shouldn't take too long, given where we are now.

This isn't RAIB territory either - strictly ORR, unless there is an incident. However, the RAIB will be quietly monitoring what is going on.

 

[Horizon22]

Very unfortunately but due to an unrelated issue, another 800 has had to be stopped at Stoke Gifford. This leaves just 1 workable set of the 80x fleet at present able to work the Newport <> Reading service.

It is hoped though that the service might come back today, but not guaranteed.

Edit: Now both the sets - For the early morning at least, there will be no IETs running for GWR.

 

[DriverEight]

So according to one story in a York newspaper, you conclude it’s a PR disaster? How many people read York newspapers. I lived in York for years, and never did!




Yes!

I picked one story from a York newspaper as an example simply because it was top of the list when I google the subject. I could have picked any one of countless stories. It's been all over the local and national news, and as usual, it's mostly been focused on the negative aspects. Press loves to trumpet the doom and gloom aspect of a story but soon lose interest when the news starts to improve. I don't use social media but I'd imagine the Twitter and Facebook world are alive with negative comments. The TOCs take this VERY seriously and there's no doubt in my mind that their relationship with the public has been seriously damaged by this. It's not fair because it's not their fault, but that's the way it goes

People on this forum naturally have an interest in, and greater understanding of, railway operations, but people on the platforms probably don't. When things go wrong they blame whichever name is painted on the side of the train.

 

[PTtrainguy]

Lner, her, ORR, DFT, Hitachi and a few others all met at North Pole depot to look at and understand in more detail the issues.
There it was agreed what mitigations could be out on place to allow sets with cracks to re-enter service.
This is still waiting to be signed off By ORR, but that is hopeful for tomorrow.

Not going to lie - I thought you were pulling my leg with 'North Pole depot' and had to do a quick Google

Does this mean GWR service is likely to return to normal soon? Any estimates on how long before normal service resumes? I suppose it will take a while to get all the locos out the depots and back in position.

EDIT: Slightly clutching at straws here, but on GWRs website this morning - all services between Swansea to Paddington (on Saturday) had a yellow warning triangle next to them warning about possible disruption, but that's been replaced with a green tick now and no disruption mentioned. Hopefully that means they're expecting things back to normal by Saturday.

 

[Western Sunset]

This was GWRs entire operational fleet of IETs yesterday. Spotted within 16 mins of each other at Patchway; 800006 and 800009.

 

[357]

This was GWRs entire operational fleet of IETs yesterday. Spotted within 16 mins of each other at Patchway; 800006 and 800009.

Cracking photos my friend

 

[RPI]

Cracking photos my friend

 

[43096]

Here's me thinking it was a Long Swing Links* set, completely forgetting who owns it! Thanks for clarifying

* There are two types of Mk3, long swing link and short swing link. The former fouls third rail so can't be used over it. It relates to a bogie component.

To be accurate, the long swing link variety won’t foul the third rail in normal operation, it’s only in certain situations (sharp curve, deflated suspension air bag) that it becomes a possible risk.

 

[Siemens Staines]

Very unfortunately but due to an unrelated issue, another 800 has had to be stopped at Stoke Gifford. This leaves just 1 workable set of the 80x fleet at present able to work the Newport <> Reading service.

It is hoped though that the service might come back today, but not guaranteed.

Edit: Now both the sets - For the early morning at least, there will be no IETs running for GWR.

It looks like one diagram is an 800 and one a 166

1L07 NWPTRTG RDNGSTN 08:16 On time 08:16 On time
Last report: Between Newport and Bristol Parkway (07:26)
This train has 3 coaches.

1L10 NWPTRTG RDNGSTN 1 09:19 On time 09:20 On time
Last report: No report
This train has 5 coaches.

 

[USRailFan]

I must admit actually finding this info regarding the KOBE scandal and how it would of related to GWR does make me wonder if it has been deliberately kept quiet the past few years and if it does ultimately result in permanent withdrawals the wider implications and scandal could become quite huge.

Would it even be possible to maintain long-distance traffic if all IETs had to be permanently withdrawn, given that a large amount of HST stock is rebuilt/scrapped, and Mk4 stock is also going?

 

[73128]

0500 1B00 from Paddington diagram started at BPW for Newport possibly with alternative traction. The diagram that should have started from there 1L01 for Reading was cancelled throughout as the "planned train had been replaced by a slower train".

 

[Stathern Jc]

The danger of something falling off if cracks had spread has quite rightly often been mentioned.

Something less dramatic which I haven't seen discussed yet that has made me think is:
What happens if cracks at jacking points were to be found to have propogated beyond the point that the jacking point becomes unsuitable for its' primary purpose?

With most significant work done using lifting jacks, would that mean the main depots would be a bit stuck? That sounds to me as if it could be a big problem.
Would the units / individual coaches need to be moved to a site with overhead cranes instead? And, if so, do the bodyshells have suitable slinging points as an alternative option?

 

[JN114]

166215 is out deputising on one of the IET diagrams, Hitachi are trying to get 800009 out for the other...

 

[reddragon]

Not going to lie - I thought you were pulling my leg with 'North Pole depot' and had to do a quick Google

Yes, Santa has been called in to help with magic dust!

 

[PHILIPE]

So 800009 fallen down

 

[AdamWW]

I picked one story from a York newspaper as an example simply because it was top of the list when I google the subject. I could have picked any one of countless stories. It's been all over the local and national news, and as usual, it's mostly been focused on the negative aspects. Press loves to trumpet the doom and gloom aspect of a story but soon lose interest when the news starts to improve. I don't use social media but I'd imagine the Twitter and Facebook world are alive with negative comments. The TOCs take this VERY seriously and there's no doubt in my mind that their relationship with the public has been seriously damaged by this. It's not fair because it's not their fault, but that's the way it goes

People on this forum naturally have an interest in, and greater understanding of, railway operations, but people on the platforms probably don't. When things go wrong they blame whichever name is painted on the side of the train.

I've just looked at the front page of various newspapers on line and seen nothing about this.

A Google search finds mostly articles in the specialist press, plus a few in mainstream newspapers from a few days ago.

When this first happened, it was not a prominent story in any of the news sources I read.

Most people I know who use trains pay little attention to who the operator is unless they use the train every day to get to work.

I don't think you need to have any understanding of railway operations to appreciate that the manufacturer is likely to be to blame for a faulty product.

I may be wrong but there's no doubt in my mind that if the majority of the disruption is over quickly this will have negligible impact on how people most choose to travel or how they see the industry.

 

[Darandio]

When this first happened, it was not a prominent story in any of the news sources I read.

It was on the front page of BBC News from the morning it all became apparent and remained/was updated until late Monday. It's fallen down the pecking order since.

 

[DriverEight]

I've just looked at the front page of various newspapers on line and seen nothing about this.

A Google search finds mostly articles in the specialist press, plus a few in mainstream newspapers from a few days ago.

When this first happened, it was not a prominent story in any of the news sources I read.

Most people I know who use trains pay little attention to who the operator is unless they use the train every day to get to work.

I don't think you need to have any understanding of railway operations to appreciate that the manufacturer is likely to be to blame for a faulty product.

I may be wrong but there's no doubt in my mind that if the majority of the disruption is over quickly this will have negligible impact on how people most choose to travel or how they see the industry.

There are 4 separate stories on the BBC news website about this issue, including an interview with the CEO of Hitachi rail, the first of which is from 27th April. That's mainstream, national news. It was also featured heavily on Sky news.
BBC News - High-speed GWR trains withdrawn over crack fears

High-speed GWR trains withdrawn over crack fears

Cracks were discovered during routine maintenance of two Hitachi 800 trains.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[father_jack]

Delay to one of the Plymouth to Bristol TM Castle runs introduced today, signaller routed train towards the Berks and Hants, poor driver had to accept the route rather than putting anchors down and everyone on board ending up in the first coach......

Realtime Trains - 1A76 0604 Penzance to Bristol Temple Meads

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

(Sorry mods, link not practical to paste)

 

[oddiesjack]

The danger of something falling off if cracks had spread has quite rightly often been mentioned.

Something less dramatic which I haven't seen discussed yet that has made me think is:
What happens if cracks at jacking points were to be found to have propogated beyond the point that the jacking point becomes unsuitable for its' primary purpose?

With most significant work done using lifting jacks, would that mean the main depots would be a bit stuck? That sounds to me as if it could be a big problem.
Would the units / individual coaches need to be moved to a site with overhead cranes instead? And, if so, do the bodyshells have suitable slinging points as an alternative option?

This is something I have been thinking about, too. If the body needs to be lifted to allow proper access for welding the cracks around these Jacking Pockets, isn't that going to be problematic?

 

[Ianno87]

There are 4 separate stories on the BBC news website about this issue, including an interview with the CEO of Hitachi rail, the first of which is from 27th April. That's mainstream, national news. It was also featured heavily on Sky news.
BBC News - High-speed GWR trains withdrawn over crack fears

High-speed GWR trains withdrawn over crack fears

Cracks were discovered during routine maintenance of two Hitachi 800 trains.

www.bbc.co.uk

No longer on current BBC News Homepage. Yesterday's news being today's chip papers, etc.

 

[Nippy]

Delay to one of the Plymouth to Bristol TM Castle runs introduced today, signaller routed train towards the Berks and Hants, poor driver had to accept the route rather than putting anchors down and everyone on board ending up in the first coach......

Realtime Trains - 1A76 0604 Penzance to Bristol Temple Meads

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

(Sorry mods, link not practical to paste)

And that is the signaller being led down a trap, 1A76 normally goes B and H. and the higher 1A** were introduced to show that they went that way. It is the same with the higher 1C** numbers on the down being via the B and H.

It is also an issue with Cogload not having any prior warning to the route being set wrong. A Preliminary Route Indicator would be ideal there.

 

[Ianno87]

Delay to one of the Plymouth to Bristol TM Castle runs introduced today, signaller routed train towards the Berks and Hants, poor driver had to accept the route rather than putting anchors down and everyone on board ending up in the first coach......

Realtime Trains - 1A76 0604 Penzance to Bristol Temple Meads

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

(Sorry mods, link not practical to paste)

And that is the signaller being led down a trap, 1A76 normally goes B and H. and the higher 1A** were introduced to show that they went that way. It is the same with the higher 1C** numbers on the down being via the B and H.

It is also an issue with Cogload not having any prior warning to the route being set wrong. A Preliminary Route Indicator would be ideal there.

In the situation, can hardly blame timetable planners working at short notice for overlooking such headcode nuances.