Entire Merseyrail fleet to be replaced

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anthony263

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Just seen this article online:

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk...ced-at-cost-of-more-than-300m-99623-30953025/

David Bartlett in the Liverpool Daily Post said:
Entire Merseyrail fleet of trains to be replaced at cost of more than £300m

MORE than £300m is to be spent replacing every single train on the Merseyrail network.

Merseyrail’s fleet of trains is more than 30 years old and reaching the end of its useful life.

Jim Barclay, chief executive of transport authority Merseytravel, today warned that, if the trains are not replaced soon, “the network could start to have serious operational problems”.

Last year, Merseytravel asked train manufacturers for an idea of how much a new fleet of trains would cost.

It is now estimated the cost will be between £300m and £350m, and Merseytravel has asked headhunters Veredus to find a project director.

A leaked Merseytravel report states: “Merseyrail needs a fleet which will meet the current and future needs of passengers, as well as the demands of being operated on the most intensive network in the UK outside London.

“It must also be able to cope with the extreme operating conditions experienced on the network, including a corrosive environment in the underground City Loop section of the network and extremely tight curves, which create excessive wheel wear and wheel/rail interface issues.”

Merseyrail’s 58-strong fleet is rented from Angel Trains at a cost of £12m-a-year, which is funded from a government grant.

The lease agreement runs out in 2015, but there is an option to extend it until 2018. Merseytravel is in negotiations to secure an additional year of use, as the new trains are not expected to enter service until 2019.

Mr Barclay yesterday wrote to chief executives of the councils across Merseyside to explain the importance of the project.

In the letter, leaked to the ECHO, he said an advert will appear in tomorrow’s Sunday Times for a project director to oversee buying the new trains.

The cost of the new trains will be met by government grants and fares (which are pegged to inflation). The transport authority may also have to borrow cash for the trains.

“The current trains were built in the late 1970s and, despite a refurbishment programme that was undertaken a decade ago, both the expected lifespan of the vehicles and the current leasing arrangements, are set to expire over the next six years,” Mr Barclay said in his letter.

“If we do not get new rolling stock within the timeframes defined above, the network could start to have serious operational problems.”

The news will be welcomed by commuters using Merseyrail.

Around 20m journeys are taken each year on the network, which is currently seeing a £20m upgrade at Central Station. It will not reopen until October.
 
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Nym

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Please god not Bombardier stock...

It would be too much like the S Stock and break down, constantly...

Is anyone else thinking along the lines of something like an ElectroDiesel might be in order for some units to extend services from Kirby to the bay in Wigan Wallgate, and Borscough Curves etc.

Desiro City anyone?
 

MidnightFlyer

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I don't know if it would be still possible, but 350/2s or similar (but narrower?) I think would be worthy replacements. Anything but Bombardier to be honest though!
 
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tbtc

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I've previously suggested that any replacement for Merseyrail 507/508s is part of the same order as the FCC Moorgate EMUs (currently 313s) - narrow dual voltage EMUs constrained by tunnels etc
 

Failed Unit

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Don't think an electro diesel is the way forward, extend the electrification if demand exists. I would love to see Merseyrail extend to Preston and Wigan. If there is demand for it, I have no idea.
 

the sniper

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Please god not Bombardier stock...

It would be too much like the S Stock and break down, constantly...

Or it would be like, or actually be, an order for Cl.378s, which seem to run reliably with London Overground, seeing as they're one of the best TOCs on the PPM table and solely run completely unreliable stock from Bombardier...

Oh wait, I forgot, crapping of Derby is compulsory on RailUK. ;)

Desiro City anyone?

Only if their introduction is as faultless as the Cl.380s was. :p
 

anthony263

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Didn't the 378s also have a rough introduction period?


I think they did somewhat but seemed to settle down pretty quickly although I suspect there are more than likely problems from time to time.

As for the order I do agree it might be worth perhaps adding an order for units to replace the class 313's although this may be too much for the DFT (Of course they could use it to show they are helping the good workers at Derby especially if Crossrail goes to Siemens).

Although I dont understand how it will take til 2019 to get new units especially if they (god forbid to some on this forum) order some units from Bombardier.

Better still if they do order from Bombardier why not do as one or two members on here (myself included) have suggested order some class 377's or similar for the Cardiff Valley lines network when it is wired.
 

DXMachina

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I wonder if this sheds any light on S.Wales Valleys future stock.

If the 507/8s are knackered now, how can we hope for the near-identical Cl315s to be good enough for a new lease of life in a new region, several years from now?
 

anthony263

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I wonder if this sheds any light on S.Wales Valleys future stock.

If the 507/8s are knackered now, how can we hope for the near-identical Cl315s to be good enough for a new lease of life in a new region, several years from now?

Hopefully the WG will have more powers by 2020 and be able to borrow money on its own so that they can by brand new rolling stock
 

John55

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I don't know if it would be still possible, but 350/2s or similar (but narrower?) I think would be worthy replacements. Anything but Bombardier to be honest though!

So if we replace 507s & 508s with 350/2s. This would mean;

3 x 2 seating to replace 2 x 2

Narrower trains 2.80m (Cl 350) vs 2.82m (Cl 507) body width in same length

100/110 mph units on a network with 60 mph limit

44.8 tonnes/car vs 33.0 tonnes/car

~1500hp vs 880hp

Suspension hard on track vs BR compliant suspension (on a route notorious for track issues)

Is this really a good idea?


I wonder if this sheds any light on S.Wales Valleys future stock.

If the 507/8s are knackered now, how can we hope for the near-identical Cl315s to be good enough for a new lease of life in a new region, several years from now?

Brush traction motors and thyristor control.
 

Uzair

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How many Merseyrail units are there? I'd rather the coaches from these displaced trains be sent down to SWT and the Class 455's have an extra carriage put in to make some of the trains 5 coaches, and two units in multiple will of course make a 10 coach train, instead of the Class 456's going to SWT.

Edit: Just read the article and seen that there are 59 trains with MR, so if the TSO cars were taken out of each train, then 59 out of SWT's 91 455's could be strengthened to 5 cars. However would this be physically possible?
 
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tbtc

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So if we replace 507s & 508s with 350/2s. This would mean;

3 x 2 seating to replace 2 x 2

Narrower trains 2.80m (Cl 350) vs 2.82m (Cl 507) body width in same length

100/110 mph units on a network with 60 mph limit

44.8 tonnes/car vs 33.0 tonnes/car

~1500hp vs 880hp

Suspension hard on track vs BR compliant suspension (on a route notorious for track issues)

Is this really a good idea?

350s come in 2+2 or 3+2 seating - I'm sure you could order any stock with whatever seating you wanted.

Other issues partly relate to modern trains having more equipment on board (so any modern unit would weigh more) - I dunno whether the toilets (which the 507508s lack) would add much weight?

But the main one, for me, is compatability with other stock.

For example, if you electrify the Wigan Wallgate line in the next eight years (when these units will be built by?) then you could have a direct Liverpool - Kirby - Wigan - Bolton service (for example). So having EMUs that are compatible with non-Merseyrail ones would be an advantage (that's unless the Scousers decide to deliberately go for something non-standard like NSE twenty-something years ago, to stop their nice new units being cascaded elsewhere!)
 

Ivo

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I would think a 378-like unit, but with standard seating and not longitudinal seating, would be best. Make it 2+2 to maximise standing space, and have the larger articulated inter-carriage areas, and finally provide end gangways to work between units for people to make their way between the two. Based on the design it would have to be built by Bombardier and not Siemens, but you guys don't seem too enthusiastic about that :lol:
 

anthony263

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I would think a 378-like unit, but with standard seating and not longitudinal seating, would be best. Make it 2+2 to maximise standing space, and have the larger articulated inter-carriage areas, and finally provide end gangways to work between units for people to make their way between the two. Based on the design it would have to be built by Bombardier and not Siemens, but you guys don't seem too enthusiastic about that :lol:

I would say something like the class 378's with 2+2 seating would be great for mersyrail & some other routes. Too be honest I dont mind some of the trains built by Bombardier (when they work).
 

Nym

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Aren't Bombardier retiring the Electrostar (after finishing the Southern order) and replacing it with the Aventra?

They are indeed and the chances are it wouldn't be built in Derby anyway when they do move onto the Aventra, so no point in giving it to Bombardier to keep Derby open.

And 2+2 seating with plenty of dossing space around the place, sounds like a 350/1 with a few seats dropped out round the doors to put in tip up seating (like the cycle areas on the 185s and 450s).
 

John55

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How many Merseyrail units are there? I'd rather the coaches from these displaced trains be sent down to SWT and the Class 455's have an extra carriage put in to make some of the trains 5 coaches, and two units in multiple will of course make a 10 coach train, instead of the Class 456's going to SWT.

Edit: Just read the article and seen that there are 59 trains with MR, so if the TSO cars were taken out of each train, then 59 out of SWT's 91 455's could be strengthened to 5 cars. However would this be physically possible?

The power to weight ratio would be very poor. The 455s are already slow by modern standards and with only 4 powered axles the chances of any movement in the autumn would be slim.
 

RichmondCommu

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Please god not Bombardier stock...

It would be too much like the S Stock and break down, constantly...

Is anyone else thinking along the lines of something like an ElectroDiesel might be in order for some units to extend services from Kirby to the bay in Wigan Wallgate, and Borscough Curves etc.

Desiro City anyone?

Anybody would think you worked for Siemens.....
 
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