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Entire Merseyrail fleet to be replaced

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jopsuk

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Are there currently any peak time 3-car workings? If so, how many extra 3-car units would they need to run the entire peak as 6-cars? Alternatively, with 6-car units, how many would be needed to run the service?
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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Merseyrail are just making sure they get onto the DfT's rolling stock plan, hopefully for CP5 (2014-19).
I doubt if we'll see an order for some years.
Merseyrail/travel can't just order trains without DfT/Treasury funding.
It might be different if infrastructure investment dictated new trains (eg AC extension/dual voltage working), or if corrosion of the current fleet was excessive.
There is no plan to replace the similar class 313/4/5 trains (except the 315s partially by Crossrail).
 

Eagle

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They also do the control software for trains, is all their software engineering for most of Europe down there, since rail is part of "Siemens Mobility".

Didn't know that... I just assumed you were trying to get in the good books of a certain Lancashire-based signals engineer.
 

WatcherZero

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Merseyrail are just making sure they get onto the DfT's rolling stock plan, hopefully for CP5 (2014-19).
I doubt if we'll see an order for some years.
Merseyrail/travel can't just order trains without DfT/Treasury funding.
It might be different if infrastructure investment dictated new trains (eg AC extension/dual voltage working), or if corrosion of the current fleet was excessive.
There is no plan to replace the similar class 313/4/5 trains (except the 315s partially by Crossrail).


Err yes they do since Merseyrail is devolved to local control like Scotland and (barring infrastructure at the moment) Wales.
 

Nym

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Didn't know that... I just assumed you were trying to get in the good books of a certain Lancashire-based signals engineer.

Was looking to recruit into a role for them there down there, phoned their HR department and they said it was embedded systems for rail vehicles.

Also:

I know not who this Lancashire based Signals Engineer be...
 

ukrob

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They are looking to employ someone now to spec some trains that won't be ordered for four years?
 

WatcherZero

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Their looking for a programme leader to build the procurement team and lead it to completion.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Err yes they do since Merseyrail is devolved to local control like Scotland and (barring infrastructure at the moment) Wales.

I agree Scotland is different, but Merseyrail is a bit like LO as a long term "concession", with full local control over its franchise.
But I don't think it gives them the ability to buy new trains without a funding agreement with Whitehall, because that is outside the franchise spec.
TfL is only able to spend big money (eg Crossrail) because of funding agreements with the DfT/Treasury.
Wales definitely does not have the power. It just manages the W&B franchise for DfT (which has no provision for new trains either).
Things might change with the DfT decentralisation programme (out to consultation).
 

John55

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Yes, I can read, thanks. But I put it into plain English to show how daft it is.

You changed the meaning and did not put anything into plain english. Writing a spec is not the same as managing a project.

The only daft thing about the programme is how ridiculously fast it is - look at the Thameslink rolling stock programme as announced in 2008 (from RGI).

"Thameslink rolling stock procurement timetable

Return of expressions of interest June 9 2008
Select accredited bidders summer 2008
Invitations to tender autumn 2008
Proposals received winter 2008/09
Contract award summer 2009
First trains in service February 2012
Introduction complete December 2015"

This was presumably after the DfT had produced the spec for the train!

Perhaps if the DfT had a competent Prject Director the rolling stock might actually be in production (or even service) rather than waiting for the contracts to be signed (and 3 years late).
 

Failed Unit

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Merseyrail are just making sure they get onto the DfT's rolling stock plan, hopefully for CP5 (2014-19).
I doubt if we'll see an order for some years.
Merseyrail/travel can't just order trains without DfT/Treasury funding.
It might be different if infrastructure investment dictated new trains (eg AC extension/dual voltage working), or if corrosion of the current fleet was excessive.
There is no plan to replace the similar class 313/4/5 trains (except the 315s partially by Crossrail).

The 314s were on very thin ice a little while ago, growth keeps them going at the moment. I would be surprised if the survive the central belt electrification programme. I suspect the EMU order that comes with it will be large enough to cover 314 replacement.

I will need to take a look at the thameslink tender, but I am sure some bidders will look at replacement of the 313s as well. Having the 313s mixing with the new stock could cause problems with failed units.

The merseyrail fleet is getting on a bit, not sure if they can get hold of enough units should traffic grow.
 

Nym

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brand new. Oh and why would the new Aventra not be built in the UK?

Because the chances are it's not just going to be for the UK market so the production line will need to shift metal away at UIC GC gauge as well as W6, C1 etc.

Hence, no way to shift it all by rail from Derby, so the chances are it won't be built here.
 

Nym

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Will the units be DC only or Dual Voltage so they can work away from MerseyRail e.g. Manchester Airport, Preston etc?


---
I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?1vatyg

If you where to make then Dual Voltage the only place they could realistically run off of Merseyrail onto with current electrification would be down to Crewe from Liverpool South Parkway, but the track layout might not allow that.

EDIT: It doesn't.
 

IanXC

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Will the units be DC only or Dual Voltage so they can work away from MerseyRail e.g. Manchester Airport, Preston etc?

It would seem a bit early to know yet, specification hasn't been written! My understanding is that much as we often talk about dual voltage services, official sources pretty much don't!

 

the sniper

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Because the chances are it's not just going to be for the UK market so the production line will need to shift metal away at UIC GC gauge as well as W6, C1 etc.

Hence, no way to shift it all by rail from Derby, so the chances are it won't be built here.

We'll see. I don't see it happening though. They'll have to balance out whether they want to keep the factory open with a fluctuating stream of orders (overflowing sometimes, close to dry at others), or take the Alstom route, closing the factory and running the risk of not getting any UK orders at all for a considerable amount of time.
 

Nym

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I can see one way of saving Derby as part of HS1, by providing a UIC-GC link to the EU network, but without that, I can't see Derby surviving beyond the S Stock Deliveries and any further Class 172 orders.

Especially since they don't build what the customer wants, they build what they want.

And after the aftersales and testing service TfL received on the S7, S8 and 09ts stock, I don't think they'll be getting any more TfL orders either and they'll be going to Alstom and Siemens in future, indeed the NGDLTS concept by Siemens looks rather nice, also including Deep Level Air Conditioning systems.
 

the sniper

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I can see one way of saving Derby as part of HS1, by providing a UIC-GC link to the EU network, but without that, I can't see Derby surviving beyond the S Stock Deliveries and any further Class 172 orders.

So you're basically saying it won't survive. ;)

It won't be linked to HS1 as there's little point in doing the gauge clearance for that. Even if it were, that wouldn't be done soon and even if it were, Bombardier have so many European plants that I doubt they need the capacity. Saying that though I believe I read in Rail that they're currently making body parts for a new South-East Asian Metro system unit, I haven't got the magazine to hand at the moment though so can't check. It seems that the plant can be utilised for non UK work though, not just complete units like the Gautrain either.
 

tbtc

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Will the units be DC only or Dual Voltage so they can work away from MerseyRail e.g. Manchester Airport, Preston etc?

My understanding is that no new EMUs will be built as *only* third rail. Any new third rail units will be either dual voltage or at least for easy conversion to overhead running (like the 450s).

So even if they were only required to be Third Rail, they'd come capable of dealing with either type of electrification (if that makes sense).
 

317666

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As much as I'd hate to see the 507s and 508s replaced, being among my favourite design of EMUs, I think that a variant of the Desiro City would be a good idea, especially as Siemens stock tends to have very good acceleration which is needed for routes like MerseyRail with lots of stops close together.

On the subject of trailers being incorporated into the Class 455s, the 455/7s have a 508 TSO as their intermediate trailers, so it could definitely be done compatibility-wise I think, although it depends if the 455 traction motors are up to shifting 5 cars instead of 4.
 

paul1609

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As much as I'd hate to see the 507s and 508s replaced, being among my favourite design of EMUs, I think that a variant of the Desiro City would be a good idea, especially as Siemens stock tends to have very good acceleration which is needed for routes like MerseyRail with lots of stops close together.

On the subject of trailers being incorporated into the Class 455s, the 455/7s have a 508 TSO as their intermediate trailers, so it could definitely be done compatibility-wise I think, although it depends if the 455 traction motors are up to shifting 5 cars instead of 4.

Err take it you don't have much experience of Siemens stock running on dc, acceleration is pretty awful, 377s will comfortably show a 450 a clean pair of heals over the Portsmouth to Havant section.
The schedule of the Portsmouth Fast trains is now nearly 15 mins longer with 450s/444s than it was with slam door stock (admittedly with an extra stop at woking).


 

455driver

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Is anyone else thinking along the lines of something like an ElectroDiesel might be in order for some units to extend services from Kirby to the bay in Wigan Wallgate, and Borscough Curves etc.

Why not just extend the 3rd rail, and yes it is permitted to extend existing systems before all the "oh it isnt allowed" lot get involved.
 

anthony263

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Err take it you don't have much experience of Siemens stock running on dc, acceleration is pretty awful, 377s will comfortably show a 450 a clean pair of heals over the Portsmouth to Havant section.
The schedule of the Portsmouth Fast trains is now nearly 15 mins longer with 450s/444s than it was with slam door stock (admittedly with an extra stop at woking).



Yes I have noticed this with the class 377's departing Southampton however it does seem to be different when working AC
 

Nym

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Why not just extend the 3rd rail, and yes it is permitted to extend existing systems before all the "oh it isnt allowed" lot get involved.

Kirkby to Wigan Wallgate I would do as 3rd Rail because it would be a very short stretch of Dual Voltage between where it joins the Southport Line and the platforms at Wallgate.

Anything else I would be doing as OHLE because it's not likely to be self contained.

Eg. Southport will be services from Manchester, Preston uses a section of line already OHLE electrified etc. etc.

And OHLE requires significantly less feeder stations than 3rd Rail.
 

John55

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Yes I have noticed this with the class 377's departing Southampton however it does seem to be different when working AC

All modern DC units working on the 3rd rail network south of London are current limited due to limitations of the power supply system. Each 4 car unit may take only 2200A while running and this limits the tractive effort whilst accelerating. (figures from memory but I am pretty sure they are correct)

As the Siemens units are heavier than the Class 377s for example this will mean they are likely to accelerate less quickly when running on the 3rd rail. There may be some differences in the ancillary equipment or transmission efficiency or motor characteristic which accentuates this difference.

When running on 25kV this current limit issue disappears so if the Siemens trains have a bit more poke they will then keep up with the Class 377s. They will also cost a bit more to run of course.

For Network Rail/Merseyrail this will be a significant issue as their power supply does not seem particularly robust and one aspect of the re-equipment of the network may have to be major expenditure on the power supply to the 3rd rail to support power hungry new trains.

This is one reason why Merseytravel want a decent Project Manager to look at the procurement as finding a good balance between these costs and the cost of the trains and train service provision will be important to the cost of the Merseyrail network after 2019 or whenever the new trains arrive.

On top of that is the issue of signalling which will be more fraught as Thameslink is already demonstrating.
 

Pumbaa

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When running on 25kV this current limit issue disappears so if the Siemens trains have a bit more poke they will then keep up with the Class 377s. They will also cost a bit more to run of course.

Take a 377 north from Croydon or Clapham; the change in acceleration is very noticeable away from Wembley, which is the first opportunity the driver gets to open the kegs to full on 25kV AC.

I wonder if 'pendolino' signs the WLL and MK? He/She would be able to give us an honest and more scientific appraisal in terms of performance.

OT; when the 350s worked the WLL to cover for Southern, the difference in acceleration was negligible. At the time when I queried, I was told the power hadn't been limited on them, as there was only 4 running about at any one time so it shouldn't have too much of an effect on the whole system.
 
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