Entreprise - HEP caused loco fire

Discussion in 'International Transport' started by IR-Mark4/ICR, 7 Jun 2013.

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  1. IR-Mark4/ICR

    IR-Mark4/ICR Member

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    Yesterday on the Belfast-Dublin route it was a day to forget.

    8208 failed in Connolly before working the 16.50 to Belfast, no spare locomotive, 4 car 2900 replaced it.

    230 had an engine fire just north of Newry while working the 18.05 to Dublin, HEP caused quiet a blaze. Not known yet if the loco will ever being in passenger services again, its the end of HEP for it anyway. History repeating itself 206 was almost a write off.

    19.00 to Belfast terminated at Newry because the locomotive was need to move the 18.05.

    All EGV's were withdrawn from services some time ago an are due to return this month but its not know if they will even return.
     
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  3. 4SRKT

    4SRKT Established Member

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    Why were EGVs withdrawn? They've only just been converted.
     
  4. IR-Mark4/ICR

    IR-Mark4/ICR Member

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    Cracks in body work. RSC told them to stop using.
     
  5. 4SRKT

    4SRKT Established Member

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    Check. What do the RSC have to say about burning 201 class locos as an alternative? ;)
     
  6. 89-763-733

    89-763-733 Member

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    Not correct. 227 and 111 were both sent from Belfast to move the failed train. 206 was on the 1900 and stayed on its set
     
  7. I T S

    I T S Member

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    Totally incorrect -

    230 did have an engine fire. The cause of the blaze is not quite clear yet as there is investigations underway both by Translink, Irish Rail & RAIB. Therefore it would be speculation to say the HEP caused the blaze.

    The 1900 loco (206) was not taken off the train. The train terminated at Newry due to the line blockage at Goraghwood. Passengers were then transferred by road to Poyntzpass where they met a 3 car CAF to take them to Belfast. The 1900 set (206+DeDe) ran empty to Belfast at 2230hrs once the Fire Services had cleared the line and the fire was put out.

    GM 111 ran light from York Road to Goraghwood and coupled to 230 in advance before hauling the lot back to York Road. However due to braking force issues, Loco 227 ran light from York Road to Newry (Wrong line P'Pass/Newry) and reversed over the Xover to Goraghwood and coupled to the rear of the train (DVT of 1805). The consist (111 - 230 - DeDe - 227) then left at 0245hrs and headed for Belfast arriving into the depot at 0530hrs this morning.

    230 remains in Belfast whilst investigations are underway. The future of the locomotive remains unclear.

    Ref EGV's on the Enterprise, None of the 4 were withdrawn. They were temporarily "Stopped" whilst some modifications took place to the wheelsets & internal bodywork of the van. However, They are expected to return soon to the Enterprise.
     
  8. IR-Mark4/ICR

    IR-Mark4/ICR Member

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    I bet that HEP was the cause, the only other locomotive fire of the 201's was 206 which HEP also caused. In summer failure rates on the Belfast service increase and the week of hot weather, air con demand would of being high + the fact that engines are getting old and HEP puts them under major stress. Can't recall when 230 had a major overhaul?

    The RSC got them taken from services for repairs to be carried out, they are due back this month

    Only a handful of loco's left with TPWS with 209, 230 and 234 wrecked because of HEP, 228 hasn't being in action in a long time. It leaves 206,7,8,27,31,33. Although 209 and 234 can operate if EGV's are in operation. 233 only back a few weeks after over 6 months stopped because HEP and failure in September required a complete rebuild.

    3 required daily, 2 spare at either end and one to cover for breakdowns.

    As for future of 230, cost will be a major factor as IE don't have money and back when 206 went on fire all locomotives were required so it had to be back in service where this is not a problem now. If the EGV's stay full time they could get away with not repairing it.
     
    Last edited: 7 Jun 2013
  9. I T S

    I T S Member

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    Personally, I welcome the EGV operations on the service but do also see it as a complete waste of money and 15 years too late. GM told them not to use the HEP but did they listen? They've learnt the hard way with so many failures over the years.

    It'll be a 3piece ICR or 3 piece Class 3000 in no more than 3 years. The service that had the fire (1805 Belfast/Connolly) - 114 passengers on board? That's only 1 1/2 coaches on the entire 6 passenger carrying vehicles (exclude dining car). For a evening peak service to carry only that amount is such a let down and dissapointment. Any further investment into the sets would be pointless given the fact of the surplus of ICR's that are now available.
     
  10. IR-Mark4/ICR

    IR-Mark4/ICR Member

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    I do to but once they come back just hope there is no problems. Your right about GM and they were told what happened yesterday could happen.

    114 onboard is poor load but when you compare it to evening services from Cork, Galway and Waterford to Dublin its a very busy services.

    Once spare ICR's are taken out of it there is only 4 3 car sets not in full service at the minute. Only 6 unites are cleared for NI with TPWS and none have a dinning car. As NIR only got 6 sets fitted IE followed and only done the same.

    The current DD sets must be due major work soon as they have not had much done since they started services.

    As NIR and IE are both unable to agree on much both transport ministers need to come up with a plan, the line needs investment and an hourly service can be supported.

    Leave it to both operators and there will be no passengers left in a few years. I don't understand why IE won't allow there ICR's up apart from that one trail recently. Sending 2900 is a joke for a replacement train.
     
  11. 102 fan

    102 fan Member

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    Does the HEP have a separate generator does it come from the main generator?
     
  12. GM078

    GM078 Member

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    Regarding 230's future, I can't help but think that it might be more economical to salvage its TWPS equipment and install it in another 201.
     
  13. IR-Mark4/ICR

    IR-Mark4/ICR Member

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    Open to correction but the 201's have:

    One main generator
    Head End Alternator which provides HEP, if stopped in stations for a while HEP is switched to standby mode and uses the main generator to provide reduced power to the train. At nights HEP has an external supply and not done by the loco.

    The main problem and caused of failures if the loco's are up at notch 6 when HEP is on standby and 8 when operating. The loco is being spinning for 18 hours a day at almost maximum power which is very bad.

    A video of 201's on Cork route when they are stopped in stations.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBhBgbQZISg&feature=player_embedded

    A video of 201's on standby mode switching to full HEP before departure.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Unaijc2XBVA

    Full HEP begins at 10 seconds and is spinning at top power around 30 seconds.

    You will see the stress they are being put under with around 18 hour days over 16 years when you compare to the Cork loco.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QizbdSr1VX0The 201's should sound like 201's without HEP

    From the videos you can see the affects HEP has on the 201's.

    Hopefully the EGV's will be back full time soon.

    Could be an option but if the EGV's are back in the next few weeks it clears 209 and 234 to operate over the border which have TPWS so 230 if possible can be repaired or do what you say however IE may be reluctant to fit TPWS to another loco as HEP will wreck it.
     
    Last edited: 8 Jun 2013
  14. 89-763-733

    89-763-733 Member

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    234 has never had TPWS 228 does but has been out of service at Inchicore since August last year
     
  15. dubscottie

    dubscottie Member

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    From what I understand, the EGV's were withdrawn because of cracks on the drag-boxes..

    When I first saw the coupling arrangement between the loco and DD's, my first thought was "that is not going to end well".

    A Mk3 drawbar can take tension not compression (hence the need for buffing plates on class 90's and Mk 3 barrier coaches etc).

    With the coupling set up, the drawbars were taking lots of compression and thus the cracks.

    Short of fitting some DD coaches with buffers I cant see how the EGV's can be used again without major structural work..
     
  16. hurricanemk1c

    hurricanemk1c Member

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    Regarding ICR's, the majority of long-distance services down here are now ICR-operated, along with the hourly Dublin-Portlaoise commuter services. At the moment, I believe there are 4 stopped 3pce (none TPWS), a stopped 6pce Premier Class and a stopped 6pce High Capacity. Whilst fitting AWS/TPWS to some 6pce PC sets would be useful, the way that the lines are done prevents this to a certain extent. All, bar one, of the 6PC ICR's are used for service every day, along with the majority of 3pce. There are 22 diagrams Heuston/Cork side, plus the Drogheda diagrams. From a fleet of 45 sets, with up to two out each day for B-exams, that leaves 43 sets. But a lot of diagrams have two-unit operation, so Irish Rail are only just about covering what they need. How can they release sets without reducing service? Portlaoise can finally avail of the off-peak fares for a reasonable day out in Dublin

    Also, for using ICR's on the Enterprise, does Drogedha have the spare capacity? Each set would have to be rotated through Laois Traincare every 28 days for a B-exam.

    Personally, I think that the DD's will last a number of years, before being replaced by either more coaches or new units. They probably won't be 22000's unless somewhere else can do B-exams. I would say that more coaches, with on-board generators, would be the way to go

    Regarding 230's future, I would say it's reasonably bleak. Already, all the non push-pull fitted locos are out of use, and with a surplus of 071's knocking around, the need for a 201 isn't high. If they need one for freight, then restoring the non push-pull ones would be easier, in all likelihood
     
  17. IR-Mark4/ICR

    IR-Mark4/ICR Member

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    230's future is important for TPWS unless they decide to swap to another loco if possible.

    As for the ICR's PC and HC sets out of service expect this is not long term thing, the High Capacity sets are in high demand and once September comes around they will all be required. With the current set up take Fridays when most services have extra capacity added it causes a reduction on two services for the evening peak out of Heuston.

    By the way there is a fleet of 63 sets and with 6 out of service that leaves 57 but as you say many operate in two sets doesn't take it long to run out of sets.
     
  18. hurricanemk1c

    hurricanemk1c Member

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    I am fully aware that there is a fleet of 63, but the way the diagrams are worked out, it seperates 3pce, 6pcePC and 6pceHC. Hence me saying 45 sets. Re-reading my post, I didn't make that clear.

    From Heuston/Cork side, there are 22 3pce diagrams, 9 6pcePC diagrams and 1 6pceHC diagram, with one 6pcePC diagram changable with the sole HC diagram. For the Connolly operations, I'm not sure, as Drogheda do their won diagramming
     
  19. PFX

    PFX Member

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    Interesting point. Given their age, I would like to think there are at least another 10-15 years left in the DD stock (look at some of the UK Mk3s for example, getting on for 40 years old and still going strong after numerous refurbs, not to mention popular with passengers).

    Externally, they still look very smart and modern but the interiors are 90s interior design nightmares now. Some cosmetic and upgrade work would improve this no end although neither NIR nor IÉ seem to be bothered about attracting passengers to what should be a permium service, regardless of which class you choose travel.
     
  20. 4SRKT

    4SRKT Established Member

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    Given the apparently appalling problems of HEP on bricks, would it not be more sensible in the medium term to abandon push-pull operation, as it is this that prevents the genny vans being used?

    Run round at Central station should be easy enough, and at Connolly release with another loco. Not shunt release, just uncouple the incoming loco and let it follow the set out when it's gone back to Belfast, and then haul the next down working. Sure you'd need an extra loco in the pool, but there are plenty spare and there'd be no extra fuel required overall. Surely this would be better than the current situation of frequent failures.
     
    Last edited: 4 Jul 2013
  21. 89-763-733

    89-763-733 Member

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    No pilot driver at Connolly now, so extra turn or overtime would be required
     
  22. 4SRKT

    4SRKT Established Member

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    A tiny cost compared to the loss of business through total unreliability.

    Or use platform 5 for Belfast trains. Even just for the 19:00 and 20:50 to ensure just one pilot shift has to be paid.
     
    Last edited: 5 Jul 2013
  23. 89-763-733

    89-763-733 Member

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    DD coaches are only cleared for 2 to 4 in Connolly . They cannot operate at curved platforms unless a member of staff is posted at each door first. That is why in Belfast only 2 is normally used for DD
     
  24. 4SRKT

    4SRKT Established Member

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    OK, but this doesn't answer the point that it would be more sensible to have a pilot at Connolly than no passengers eventually.

    Also DD is not cleared for platform 5, but that may because there's never been any need to clear it. It isn't to my view noticeably more curved than platform 2 at Central or (especially) either platform at Drogheda.
     
  25. island

    island Established Member

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    I was about to say I'd come off at least two Central-Connolly services on platform 5 before, but one was a Mk2 and the other a 29000.

    Aside from the issue with the curved platform, platforms 5-7 are very high-volume at Connolly with DART and commuter services, and it would be difficult managing to deboard/clean/board an Enterprise from there. Even more so for the arrival of the last southbound service as by then platforms 6 and 7 have been shut up and all the DARTs use platform 5, which would become impossible as the Enterprise would block it while emptying.

    My preferred solution would be abandoning p/p, paying a pilot driver, and using a spare loco. They managed it in Heuston for ages before the advent of the Mk4s.

    The route is chewing through locos (slowly but surely)!
     
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