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EQ Brakes

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MrEd

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I am aware that a number of BR mainline diesel locos (which had only vacuum train brakes) were fitted with EQ brakes in the late 1960s.

From memory, I seem to recall that some Class 20s, 24s, 25s, 27s and 40s (and probably other classes) were fitted with these, and had the distinctive Gresham and Craven‘s EQ brake valve on the driver’s desk.

What is the purpose of this modification; was it an experiment? How do these differ from conventional vacuum train brakes? How many locos had it, and what was the reason for certain locos being fitted with them and not others?

I don’t think any locos retained them after they were modified for dual braking, but I could be wrong.
 
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Gulf1159

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I am aware that a number of BR mainline diesel locos (which had only vacuum train brakes) were fitted with EQ brakes in the late 1960s- from memory, I seem to recall that some Class 20s, 24s, 25s, 27s and 40s (and probably other classes) were fitted with these, and had the distinctive Gresham and Craven‘s EQ brake valve on the driver’s desk. What is the purpose of this modification- was it an experiment? How do these differ from conventional vacuum train brakes? How many locos had it, and what was the reason for certain locos being fitted with them and not others? I don’t think any locos retained them after they were modified for dual braking, but I could be wrong.

In my time on the footplate I only came across a few class 31’s that had the EQ brake. I didn’t see any on class 37 or 47’s
 

MrEd

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In my time on the footplate I only came across a few class 31’s that had the EQ brake. I didn’t see any on class 37 or 47’s

I wasn’t aware of any 31s having it- so thank you! Which 31s can you remember? Was it preferred for locos which worked on specific types of routes/specific types of train? Someone suggested it might have come into its own when locos worked heavy fitted freights over steeply graded routes, which explains why a number of LMR 20s/25s/40s had it, as well as SCR 24/1s and 27s.
 

Gulf1159

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I wasn’t aware of any 31s having it- so thank you! Which 31s can you remember? Was it preferred for locos which worked on specific types of routes/specific types of train? Someone suggested it might have come into its own when locos worked heavy fitted freights over steeply graded routes, which explains why a number of LMR 20s/25s/40s had it, as well as SCR 24/1s and 27s.

Sorry it was in the late 70’s and early 80’s. I only ever saw/had them on passenger trains. I must admit I did like it as a brake.
 

hexagon789

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I am aware that a number of BR mainline diesel locos (which had only vacuum train brakes) were fitted with EQ brakes in the late 1960s.

From memory, I seem to recall that some Class 20s, 24s, 25s, 27s and 40s (and probably other classes) were fitted with these, and had the distinctive Gresham and Craven‘s EQ brake valve on the driver’s desk.

What is the purpose of this modification; was it an experiment? How do these differ from conventional vacuum train brakes? How many locos had it, and what was the reason for certain locos being fitted with them and not others?

I don’t think any locos retained them after they were modified for dual braking, but I could be wrong.
EQ vacuum brakes are self-lapping, standard "simple" vacuum brakes are not.

As for why locos later dual fitted wouldn't need them, the dual brakes used by BR locos were set up to be self-lapping when working either an air or a vacuum braked train so there would be no need for retaining the EQ brakes.
 
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newtownmgr

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Some 37’s definitely had EQ brakes fitted. I think the 47’s were dual braked early on so none were fitted. Personally only came across classes 20,25,31 & 37 fitted although I’m sure as stated 26,27 & 40 also had some locos fitted. I think the response from drivers was a bit marmite! Either loved it or hated it.
 

MrEd

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Some 37’s definitely had EQ brakes fitted. I think the 47’s were dual braked early on so none were fitted. Personally only came across classes 20,25,31 & 37 fitted although I’m sure as stated 26,27 & 40 also had some locos fitted. I think the response from drivers was a bit marmite! Either loved it or hated it.

That sounds right. I’ve heard much the same about drivers’ reactions. That would make sense- a lot of type 4 locos (especially 45s, 46s and 47s) we’re dual braked quite early, the 40s less so, presumably as they were not earmarked for duties which required air brakes (such as expresses with Mk2 air-cons). A lot of members of the less powerful classes remained vacuum only well into the 1980s- I seem to think a majority of the 26s and 27s on the ScR were vacuum only until withdrawal, and a majority of 31s too until refurbishment in the mid-80s.
 

edwin_m

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Weren't the 47s dual braked from new?

Any loco that had ETH capability pretty much had to be dual braked because (with the exceptions I think of the Manchester/Liverpool Pullmans and some vans) all electrically heated stock was air braked.
 

Hairy Bear

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Plenty of mk1's were vacuum braked with electric heat retro fitted.
47's were first built vacuum only . Only later batches were built dual braked.
You can tell if it has air brakes fitted from a side view by the fact that the 3 fixed radiator grill on the roof were replaced with the 2 movable slatted grills.
 

D7666

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EQ vacuum brakes are self-lapping, standard "simple" vacuum brakes are not.

As for why locos later dual fitted wouldn't need them, the dual brakes used by BR locos were set up to be self-lapping when working either an air or a vacuum braked train so there would be no need for retaining the EQ brakes.
I have a question about EQ brakes too.

Were there any freight trains ... and hence associated locomotive diagrams ... that were required to be EQ worked ? Question apples any class 25 31 37 40 etc. AFAIK the answer is no, but I'd very interested if there were any.

I don't just mean someone's spotting notes that a particular freight always had an EQ loco - if a depot had a lot of EQ locos then there's a high chance it would always be EQ.

I do mean specifically diagrammed. I have run this question by (former) ER and LMR motive power controllers and their answers were to the best of their knowledge none, but, equally answered there could well have been exceptions.

PS it is true EQ was self lapping, but that's not the actual difference, just one of the differences that is a side effect of the way BR installed them. It's rather more complexicated to go into the differences, not sure I know a way to explain it to make sense.
 

MrEd

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Weren't the 47s dual braked from new?

Any loco that had ETH capability pretty much had to be dual braked because (with the exceptions I think of the Manchester/Liverpool Pullmans and some vans) all electrically heated stock was air braked.

I believe the early Mk2s were vacuum braked but electrically heated. The Mk2s hauled by 37/4s on the Scottish region in the 1980s were certainly vacuum braked and interchangeable with Mk1s (probably with ETH retro-fitted).

I have a question about EQ brakes too.

Were there any freight trains ... and hence associated locomotive diagrams ... that were required to be EQ worked ? Question apples any class 25 31 37 40 etc. AFAIK the answer is no, but I'd very interested if there were any.

I don't just mean someone's spotting notes that a particular freight always had an EQ loco - if a depot had a lot of EQ locos then there's a high chance it would always be EQ.

I do mean specifically diagrammed. I have run this question by (former) ER and LMR motive power controllers and their answers were to the best of their knowledge none, but, equally answered there could well have been exceptions.

PS it is true EQ was self lapping, but that's not the actual difference, just one of the differences that is a side effect of the way BR installed them. It's rather more complexicated to go into the differences, not sure I know a way to explain it to make sense.

Is it true that train control (of a vacuum-braked train, that is) on a falling gradient is easier with an EQ-braked loco than one with conventional equipment? Or is that a myth?
 

edwin_m

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Yes I was wrong, thinking of the aircon Mk2s which were only ever electrically heated and air braked.
 

hexagon789

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I have a question about EQ brakes too.

Were there any freight trains ... and hence associated locomotive diagrams ... that were required to be EQ worked ? Question apples any class 25 31 37 40 etc. AFAIK the answer is no, but I'd very interested if there were any.

I don't just mean someone's spotting notes that a particular freight always had an EQ loco - if a depot had a lot of EQ locos then there's a high chance it would always be EQ.

I do mean specifically diagrammed. I have run this question by (former) ER and LMR motive power controllers and their answers were to the best of their knowledge none, but, equally answered there could well have been exceptions.

PS it is true EQ was self lapping, but that's not the actual difference, just one of the differences that is a side effect of the way BR installed them. It's rather more complexicated to go into the differences, not sure I know a way to explain it to make sense.
I can link you to some BR braking instructions documents to read through if you like, the second one goes into a bit more detail about the differences?

Though neither mention which locos had which brakes (bar E70 brakes) nor what specifically was the reason for the different types in the sense of whether they were preferred for specific trains.


I believe the early Mk2s were vacuum braked but electrically heated. The Mk2s hauled by 37/4s on the Scottish region in the 1980s were certainly vacuum braked and interchangeable with Mk1s (probably with ETH retro-fitted).
Some Mk2A were converted to vacuum brake as well, and the ScR had a small sub-fleet of original Mk2 (sometimes coded Mk2Z) which were converted to air-brake and gained 27-way through wiring, Blue Star air pipes, and two-stage disc brakes with Girling WSP for use on the Edinburgh/Glasgow "Shuttle".
 

D7666

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Is it true that train control (of a vacuum-braked train, that is) on a falling gradient is easier with an EQ-braked loco than one with conventional equipment? Or is that a myth?
Not speaking from a driver's viewpoint, but from the technical view [and drivers always have a different view], "easier" is not the term i would use.
It's kind of hard to explain but the EQ system results increased granularity of control over vacuum level in the train pipe. It is "easier" to get to and hold then adjust and then hold then adjust etc a certain level of braking effort.
A better analogy rather than a falling grade is the case where a fully fitted [class 6] 60 mph freight has to run on consecutive double yellows through varying grades. I am sure a driver will be along soon and tell me I am wrong.
Anyway, AIUI the underlying reason BR went for EQ is less about dual braking locos and more about the high number of vacuum braked wagons that were about that had no hope of being air braked (as these were the days when there were still many many unbraked wagons about). With ever increasing passenger train speeds and decreased headways there is less room for slow moving freight occupying "white space" paths in a dense timetable - they needed to be kept moving as fast as a combination of signal spacing and braking effort would allow - and EQ offered a solution.
As with everything in 20\20 vision hindsight, if in 1955 under the Modernisation Plan they had got on with air braking right away in the first place***, there would have been no need for EQ. EQ was more or less brought on by the combination of higher speed from diesel traction without adequate barking systems to support optimised capacity.


*** and there is no need for anyone to post all the reasons why that did not happen
 

Richard Scott

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I believe 24081 still retains its EQ brake, possibly only surviving loco to do so?
 

wolfman

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EQ brake was a shocking system allegedly brought into use for partially fitted freight trains to reduce the amount of incidents of guards been wrapped around the stove pipe.We had 31s and 37s fitted with it .used it a couple of times had a few toe bending moments with it.Made redundant and moved to southern region where nobody had heard of it.
 
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