Equal Pay: The Myths and Facts of the Gender Wage Gap

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Up_Tilt_390, 10 Nov 2017.

  1. Up_Tilt_390

    Up_Tilt_390 Member

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    Aside from the fact that I thought there would be a male-equivalent name, it kind of shows that some jobs are still expected to be geared towards one gender.

    I reckon nine out of ten people picture a female when they hear the term ‘Nurse’, and as such you have to specifically mention that the nurse is a male to get such a picture.
     
  2. RichmondCommu

    RichmondCommu Established Member

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    Other than contractors very few if any investment bank employees get paid by the hour. However two people, male and female, trading in derivatives, both giving 100% effort for 60 hours a week with equally impressive profit and loss sheets and yet the male is getting paid more. This was happening 15 years a go at the bank I worked for and its still happening now. And yet you still persist in saying that there is no gender pay gap.

    Bonuses are indeed not included in the salary. Why on earth do you think that a women receives a smaller bonus than her male colleague simply because there are more males trading in derivatives than females? And yes in answer to your question women are indeed earning bonuses. Were you assuming that they wouldn't be?
     
  3. Up_Tilt_390

    Up_Tilt_390 Member

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    I had an idea that the pay wouldn't be by the hour. I just wanted to be sure on that front because I never actually needed to give much thought into how investment bankers get their salary. I wouldn't be surprised if it was one of those cases where it was a negotiable salary, but the woman was getting punished by the employers not being as generous with the big gains just because of potential pregnancies. If it's not how the pay comes about then I trust you will be able to provide further information.

    I was actually referring to the whole investment banking industry when I brought up the male-female ratio. If that's where they pay averages came from it would've been because of the overwhelming amount of men earning more, so it would've been reasonable to assume that's what creates any gaps. HOWEVER, now that I think of it you very well could've been referring to just one company, and in that case I'd have to hear whether the salary is negotiable, depending on experience, or is done a different way than normal jobs before making comment as to any possible reasoning why women might be earning less than men in such cases. Having worked in the industry I trust you'd know how the pay works.

    I also wasn't assuming that women weren't earning bonuses either, I think you might have misunderstood me. I was simply choosing to not rule out the idea that they weren't getting bonuses, but not outright claiming it to be such a case. It's good to know they do earn bonuses at least, but I wouldn't be surprised if they earned less bonuses even in the same company. Once again I'd say that would fall upon old conservative views that make the old men at the top worry about a potential pregnancy or family, and as such they don't think they're worth the extra money just in case they do. Good lord, there really needs to be a discussion about some of these parental leave laws. According to the Vox report, single women earned much more than women with a family, and as such the gap of earnings between them and their male counterparts was much shorter.
     
  4. TheNewNo2

    TheNewNo2 Member

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    Really? Why? Male footballers make millions, female ones earn less than 1% of that. Is that somehow not relevant?
     
  5. Up_Tilt_390

    Up_Tilt_390 Member

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    Do female footballers get anywhere near the amount of games, sell anywhere near the amount of tickets, or get anywhere near the amount of ratings for the channels hosting the football? I can't imagine the predominantly male audience would be interested in watching women play. Don't be fooled, I actually asked genuine questions above. I for one have never seen anywhere near the amount of women football games as men, but then I am not a man who regularly watches football.
     
  6. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    None of that drives footballers wages - The Sky money drives football wages. Also worth noting below the top level wages are not that massive. Leagues 2 players don't get 50k a year let alone a week.
     
  7. tony_mac

    tony_mac Established Member

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    because the astronomical wages of a few people can skew the averages so that the figures are not really representative of the wider society.
    However, there aren't enough of them to really matter, and it's common to use median figures in order to prevent that sort of outlier having a disproportionate effect.
     
  8. Up_Tilt_390

    Up_Tilt_390 Member

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    Won't Sky give more to those who bring in higher ratings? I am quite surprised to hear the relative low level earnings though, especially given how football players cost a lot for other clubs to buy. Do they all have some sort of value?

    Surely some footballers earn millions too? I mean I've heard many people go on about how they don't like footballers earning more than firefighters and soldiers, but as long as the money isn't coming from taxes I don't care how much they're paid. Maybe it's just some sort of patriotic virtue signalling, but I keenly wait any possible answers... 8-)
     
  9. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    Even modestly skilled Premier League players are paid fortunes. The average wage in the Premier League is a whopping £2,438,275-a-year while the average salary in the Scottish Premiership, for comparison is £146,899. I believe the SPL TV was a £31m per year deal over 5 years. However, Sky don't pay the footballers. They pay the premier league for media rights, the premier league pay the clubs on a sliding scale relative to performance ( with the bottom club picking up a gazillion with the top club picking up a squillion) and the clubs pay the players. The product as a whole rather than the footballers as a part of that business is what matters to Sky.

    The value is not in the player but in their registration. That is what is technically transferred. Obviously if a club wants to buy that registration and the player is skilled it costs more. The good chaps at Sky contribute to that market by giving the Premier league clubs lots of money to spend. Sky & BT paid the Premier League alone £5.14bn for a 3 year (2016-19) TV rights deal. Sky also paid the Football Leagues ( Championship,1 &2) £180m a year over a recently signed 5 year deal. Most of that money goes to the championship clubs with the rest shared between leagues 1 & 2.

    I also cant find a figure for the recent BBC/BT sport TV deal for the Womens Premier League. It will be about £4.50 in comparison. I know there are professional teams in the WPL but it is not 100% or even the majority. Men's football in England is 100% professional down to the National League (Level 5) with several professional clubs at level 6 where my team play. Assume the premier league is level 1

    PS - that money doesn't include radio or overseas media rights, gambling partners, official beers, online steaming or any other corporate partners that seem to be needed in football these days.

    PPS - not sure what virtue signalling is................................
     
    Last edited: 14 Nov 2017
  10. Up_Tilt_390

    Up_Tilt_390 Member

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    Well that kind of clears things up, but it kind of shows how complicated things are with football for someone who hasn't yet wrapped their head around it. I'm not particularly fussed given I don't take interest in football, but not everyone is like me of course. If everyone was like me the human race wouldn't survive...

    PS - The best way I can describe virtue signalling is where someone might make a post on a social media page to show what a good person they are, rather than whether they think it's a good idea. It's kind of a way of seeming morally superior in a lot of cases. In a political context, it is often made out by some to be something exclusive to the regressive left, but this isn't true at all and I'll give examples of both sides.

    Someone might make a post on social media attending an Antifa (so called 'anti-fascists') protest to show that they are politically active and engaged, but in fact they don't strictly know much about what they're attending and therefore aren't attending because they genuinely think it's right. In fact, Antifa protests have been known to turn violent, and the group has even been deemed as domestic terrorists by New Jersey because of their use of violence and intimidation against some members of the public, even spraying things like 'liberals get the bullet too'.

    By contrast, many nationalists groups will often make lots, and I mean LOTS, of posts coming up to Remembrance Day regarding poppies and support for our troops and sharing pictures of poppies and everything, but often times they are just trying to look like they are patriotic and are stirring up posts to get themselves likes. Britain First are especially guilty of this, and in fact they even went as far as to have 'Remember Lee Rigby' on their section of a ballot paper at a local election one time. It's sheer exploitation for them to gain power, and they've ignored requests from Rigby's family to stop it several times.
     
  11. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    Precisely the men footballers' high salaries significantly increases the male average salary, so if they are included the difference for other types of work may be a lot less than figures suggest.
     
    Last edited: 15 Nov 2017
  12. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    Erm... do you know how averages work?
     
  13. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    It's not just the money from UK broadcasters, there's a whole load of international broadcasters showing Premier League matches as well - Chinese broadcasters pay a fortune for the rights to some games.

    It's worth remembering Premier League footballers are effectively full time employees who'll be training on days when lower league players are undertaking other work.
     
  14. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    Interest in the women's game is growing in the UK but the level of interest in the big women's games are insignificant compared to the level of interest in the big men's games. Interest in the women's game is greatest in countries where the men's game has little interest e.g. in Canada and the US where sports like Ice Hockey, Baseball and American Football are the sports which have the most interest.
     
  15. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    See later ;)

    eh? The players at Bury & Accrington & Newport & Hartlepooh & York City and Kidderminster Harriers are part time are they?
     
  16. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    Are any of those teams in the Premier League?
     
  17. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    When you get FA cup ties between big and small teams, there is quite often a reference to some teams consisting of part time players. I don't know exactly which clubs that applies to.

    Is Hartlepooh the new name for Hartlepool FC after it's recent purchase by Winnie The Pooh? ;)
     
  18. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    No - but there is more to football than the Premier League! The most recent figures i can find suggest basic pay in the Championship was £324,250 per player per year, before appearance money and bonuses, while it was £69,500 in League One and £40,350 in League Two. They are a little out of date now. The average wage on the PL is £46,000 per week!

    PS depends which premier league you mean ;)

    All teams between the Premier league and league 2 are full time pro. Conference National is almost entirely pro. Conference North has about 1/2 full time. There are full time clubs below that level .

    My club, Darlington, is semi pro in Conferance North. Our players have jobs ranging from accountant to teacher to plumber to warehouseman to student. They will train, at most, twice a week after work.
     
  19. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    Ah, misunderstood your post, sorry.
     
  20. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    Just to illustrate lower level pros make good, if not spectacular, money.
     
  21. WelshBluebird

    WelshBluebird Established Member

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    But you have to remember footballers only have a relatively short career. 20 odd years max really (you do get the odd exception of course, and many are less than that). So for those lower level pros, who probably don't have any chance of a nice media contract when they retire, while £40k-£70k a year may sound pretty good, it isn't a huge amount when you look at their life beyond their short playing career.
     
  22. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    That can be the case with many other roles as well. If you've got 10 years experience and not really suitable to take on a manager's role companies won't want you - they'll rather have an ambitious graduate who has the potential to become a manager in a few years. That's one reason why people retrain and become something completely different.
     
  23. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    Indeed - while the stereotype of the ex pro owning a pub might be long gone for PL players it is very much alive for those further down the pyramid. The further down you go the shorter the contracts and the less job security. Many in the pro ranks have little in the way of other skills or qualifications to call on when the music stops.
     
  24. WelshBluebird

    WelshBluebird Established Member

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    Whilst true, I'd say that is a bit different to the case with footballers where after their 10-20 years is up, they physically cannot continue in that career anymore. Or even less time for players who get bad injuries. The level of risk of being left with pretty much nothing is much higher in terms of lower league professional football than it is in most other office based jobs!
     
  25. Arctic Troll

    Arctic Troll Established Member

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    The term's primary function is to shut down debate.

    It's much easier to dismiss something as naïve or disingenuous than it is to raise a coherent argument in response.
     
  26. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    Yes it seems to me to mean: Oh. I don't like that opinion and it seems to be opposed to mine so I will try to reduce the value of it by using a silly phrase so that me and my chums can all scoff and laugh at it in the hope that our view continues to prevail.
     
  27. Up_Tilt_390

    Up_Tilt_390 Member

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    It might seem subjective, but it actually does have a definition. I found: “the action or practice of publicly expressing opinions or sentiments intended to demonstrate one's good character or the moral correctness of one's position on a particular issue“. What you have both described is much more in line with bigotry: the intolerance of other viewpoints and ideas.
     
    Last edited: 17 Nov 2017 at 11:18
  28. Arctic Troll

    Arctic Troll Established Member

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    ...which is dismissing a view as naïve or disingenuous rather than actually engaging with the argument.

    "You're just saying it to look good in front of your mates".
     
  29. deltic

    deltic Established Member

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    My company was very relaxed when analysing female/male wage differentials - no concerns at all about gender pay gap at the top levels - because there are no female senior managers!
     
  30. Up_Tilt_390

    Up_Tilt_390 Member

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    I'm not sure I understand how that relates to the given definition.
     

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