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Ertms

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asylumxl

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ETCS requires not only the infrastructure to be modified but also the trains. If you recall the Cambrian route is a trial installation and in all the reports on it I have seen the big message is "don't modify old trains" as shoehorning the train based equipment into the Class 158s had been extremely difficult and a source of many problems

I remember reading in a railway magazine that a company had created a more compact ERTMS system that could be fitted in to exisiting trains with more ease.

Besides, just because the current form factor is large does not mean it must be or will be. After all, we now have smartphones which are more powerful than fullsize tower PCs of the 90s, which themselves were more powerful than computers taking up whole rooms in the 60s/70s.
 
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Nym

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I remember reading in a railway magazine that a company had created a more compact ERTMS system that could be fitted in to exisiting trains with more ease.

Besides, just because the current form factor is large does not mean it must be or will be. After all, we now have smartphones which are more powerful than fullsize tower PCs of the 90s, which themselves were more powerful than computers taking up whole rooms in the 60s/70s.

It's actually more extreme than that...

The Samsung Galaxy SIII is more powerful than a high end laptop from 4 years ago, or a server from 6 years ago!

At the moment all ERTMS equipment is implemented using components strung together using things like large FPGAs and Micro controllers.

When the technology of ERTMS matures to use more specialised equipment, such as their own chips, or using more advanced FPGAs to create their own chips, and shrink the equipment to be smaller.

I'd expect that we can get it down to a 7.1" screen and a DIN slot or two, possibly some additional equipment in a box somewhere, but not much.
 

MarkyT

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ERTMS and ETCS are going to be implemented over 50 years because that is how long it will be before some of the existing signalling centres need to be replaced. I expect this list that ATOC have put out is based on Network Rail's signalling road map for the replacement of all signalling control into the 12 new control centres (or what ever this years plan is).

ETCS, as planned for UK, needs to be interfaced via computer based interlocking rather than any pre-existing relay or mechanical technology, so apart from areas that are already SSI or similar, it will have to wait until scheduled signalling renewal dates, which are based on condition, though modified to allow a line of route approach for ETCS introduction. The programme is also constrained by national budgets and industry capacity.

ETCS requires not only the infrastructure to be modified but also the trains. If you recall the Cambrian route is a trial installation and in all the reports on it I have seen the big message is "don't modify old trains" as shoehorning the train based equipment into the Class 158s had been extremely difficult and a source of many problems. So one aspect of ATOCs list is the message that trains will need to be able to accommodate the train based equipment in some sort of timescale. In time it will be a factor in train cascades.

SBB probably have more ETCS experience than any other administration, and have formulated a different approach to overcome the similar rolling stock challenges in Switzerland. They have already introduced full level 2 (as proposed for UK) on a number of new and classic main lines. In addition they have proposed a change to the Europe-wide ETCS specs to allow a simpler functionality based on PZB principles, that is overspeed and trainstop protection similar to TPWS and enforced slowdown at a caution. Modern rolling stock will thus be able to run in full level 2 mode on the new lines and use the PZB mode on the classic lines. Older rolling stock will receive a much simpler ETCS modification, based around the same interfaces to brake and traction controls used by the classic protection systems, though they will be unable to run on the full level 2 lines.

The fact that a technical standard for ECTS/ERTMS exists at issue XX.YY does not freeze the technology used to implement it. That will certainly change over the years but as long as the requirements are met it doesn't matter. I don't suppose the train based AWS equipment in use today is the same that was fitted to steam locos in 1954 but it still works to the same requirements.

Quite right! the core of ETCS is concerned with the message formats for track to train transmissions whether over radio, leaky feeder or balise. The future communications medium may be GSM, wi-fi, quantum entanglement or carrier pigeon, but the message purpose and content will be broadly the same!
 

John55

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I remember reading in a railway magazine that a company had created a more compact ERTMS system that could be fitted in to exisiting trains with more ease.

Besides, just because the current form factor is large does not mean it must be or will be. After all, we now have smartphones which are more powerful than fullsize tower PCs of the 90s, which themselves were more powerful than computers taking up whole rooms in the 60s/70s.

It's actually more extreme than that...

The Samsung Galaxy SIII is more powerful than a high end laptop from 4 years ago, or a server from 6 years ago!

At the moment all ERTMS equipment is implemented using components strung together using things like large FPGAs and Micro controllers.

When the technology of ERTMS matures to use more specialised equipment, such as their own chips, or using more advanced FPGAs to create their own chips, and shrink the equipment to be smaller.

I'd expect that we can get it down to a 7.1" screen and a DIN slot or two, possibly some additional equipment in a box somewhere, but not much.

It is not just electronics which is involved. One of the issues on the 158s used on the Cambrian was the difficulty of fitting the display in the cab in a position where the driver could see it. This is not dependent on how many or few electronic components are used. If I remember correctly one part of the solution was issuing dark uniform shirts to the drivers to reduce reflections!
 

Nym

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It is not just electronics which is involved. One of the issues on the 158s used on the Cambrian was the difficulty of fitting the display in the cab in a position where the driver could see it. This is not dependent on how many or few electronic components are used. If I remember correctly one part of the solution was issuing dark uniform shirts to the drivers to reduce reflections!

Ouch, display screen placement is going to be a problem in a fair few older units then, perhaps those that need it could make use of some kind of HUD projection system for the driver? But that would need a re write of the interface to only use shades of green or blue for the projection rather than full colour (as I believe is used now)
 

The Planner

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Cambrian display units are only single colour anyway I thought ?, light blue.
 

Nym

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Ahh, thanks for that, maybe the ERTMS kit I've seen is all showey off and in colour, so it wouldn't be too difficult to incorporate a HUD system with a few discrete lights for big warnings.
 

tirphil

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Cambrian display units are only single colour anyway I thought ?, light blue.

Black, blue, grey, white, yellow, orange and red are all colours that can appear on the in cab DMI. Colours appear/change depending on movement authorities, braking hooks, overspeeds, train trips etc.

The basic colours of the DMI though are black, white and blue.
 

michael769

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Think about how much you can pack on the display of an iPhone, I find it hard to believe that a unit the size of a modern smartphone could not be devised - almost certainly still cheaper than an HUD.
 

HSTEd

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A small display like that would have issues though, you do basically need something the size of a control panel to ensure that it is easy to read in all conditions, especially adverse light conditions.

As I understand it is there is no particular reason why a ERTMS could not be implemented on a one board computer really.....
 

cyclebytrain

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At the moment all ERTMS equipment is implemented using components strung together using things like large FPGAs and Micro controllers.

Any chance of a source for FPGAs being used in ERTMS? They sure wouldn't be my choice in such a device.
 

HSTEd

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The production run would be too short to justify development of ASICs and implementing it in true software would be troublesome.
 
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