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Ethiopian Airways flight crashes (10/03) + 737 MAX grounding

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AM9

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Lot of US senators pressing FAA to ground as well.
The FAA is usually considered to be a regulator with integrity. That reputation may become tarnished if they sit on their hands much longer. It will look like they are being held back to make America great again, - wrong move!
 
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Tim R-T-C

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A Smartwings 737 MAX flight from Cape Verde to Prague is forced to circle as it cannot enter EU airspace.

This seems utterly daft, surely increasing risk - of pilot fatigue if nothing else.
 

ainsworth74

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A Smartwings 737 MAX flight from Cape Verde to Prague is forced to circle as it cannot enter EU airspace.

This seems utterly daft, surely increasing risk - of pilot fatigue if nothing else.

On the move again. Wonder if it's being diverted to Tunis.
 

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YorkshireBear

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There is also one from dubai circling over Turkey, doesn't seem. Right to not let them in surely landing approval is given before takeoff?
 

YorkshireBear

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Looks like the Cape Verde one is landing in Tunis and the dubai one in Ankara, i assume smartwings are sending alternative planes to go collect them.
 

CC 72100

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Has this happened before in recent years?

I can understand reputational concern and image but can't help feeling something is definitely known here.
 

LOL The Irony

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Has this happened before in recent years?

I can understand reputational concern and image but can't help feeling something is definitely known here.
Last one's that come to mind are Concorde, the DC-10 and the Comet 1. And I've just covered the History of the Passenger Jet Aircraft.
 

TheEdge

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It depends how you want to measure it. The Comet 1 was at the cutting edge of aviation and no one really understood how metal fatigue worked on a pressurised airliner.

The DC10 issues were based around a newly but poorly designed door.

But both incidents saw previously big players in the industry go down.
 

YorkshireBear

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FAA are refusing to ground them. Not surprising to be fair, although a friend did say how quick would they have done it if this happened to the Airbus A321 Neo.

I am not in anyway suggesting this is going to happen, as I am sure the planes are still airworthy but until this issue is sorted out many are taking precautions, but if an American Boeing 737MAX was to crash now can you imagine the uproar, it would be huge.
 

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One thing I find to be quite interesting on this one is reports of flames from the rear of the plane before it crashed - unless the APU was running there is not a lot in the tail that *could* catch fire. Does the 737 MAX have lithium-ion batteries of the type that caused issues on the 787? If this is found to be the cause this could ground a *lot* more aircraft for major redesigns.
 

YorkshireBear

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One thing I find to be quite interesting on this one is reports of flames from the rear of the plane before it crashed - unless the APU was running there is not a lot in the tail that *could* catch fire. Does the 737 MAX have lithium-ion batteries of the type that caused issues on the 787? If this is found to be the cause this could ground a *lot* more aircraft for major redesigns.

Is there anything that could cause that if part of the aircraft broke during the dive due to the forces involved? I have also heard the eyes can play tricks on you with the light due to the speed sometimes as well. Or they could be lying. Or it could be true!
 

Bletchleyite

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Is there anything that could cause that if part of the aircraft broke during the dive due to the forces involved? I have also heard the eyes can play tricks on you with the light due to the speed sometimes as well. Or they could be lying. Or it could be true!

I suppose there is the fuel line to the APU.

The most likely, if it isn't true, is confirmation bias - people expect to see a crashing plane on fire, so they "see" fire even if it is not there.
 

LOL The Irony

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The Comet 1 was at the cutting edge of aviation and no one really understood how metal fatigue worked on a pressurised airliner.
True, they didn't have 65+ years of experience in building passenger jets unlike Boeing. In fact the 737 is a derivative of the 367-80 like the 707 and it's sister aircraft, the 727.
The DC10 issues were based around a newly but poorly designed door.
Well from the Lion Air crash, it seems to be like this, although those 2 were design faults. Concorde was just the combination of the right things on the right day (ironically, caused by an improper repair to a Continental DC-10!).
FAA are refusing to ground them. Not surprising to be fair, although a friend did say how quick would they have done it if this happened to the Airbus A321 Neo.
Your friend is stating the obvious there, although Trump may force the 737 MAX to be grounded.
 

robk23oxf

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Witness statements tend to be unreliable. The crash investigators will look into these reports of fire coming from the back as it came down but I doubt they'll be a significant part of the investigation.
 

Bletchleyite

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Witness statements tend to be unreliable. The crash investigators will look into these reports of fire coming from the back as it came down but I doubt they'll be a significant part of the investigation.

The flight recorders will be the main place to start as they have been found, and if there was a fire they will contain evidence of it.
 

AM9

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It getting a lot closer to home
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/13/can...ircraft-from-flying-in-canadian-airspace.html

Canada ban them from their airspace
That could force US carriers to remove them from some services as there are agreements between Canada and the US that flights on domestic services in either country that are routed near to the border can divert over the border to airports in the other country in emergencies. Not long now before the FAA climbs down. Are there any in Mexico?
 

cjp

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from the bbc https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47553787 with a quote from Canada's transport minister
Marc Garneau said that satellite data showed possible similarities between flight patterns of Boeing 737 Max planes operating in Canada and the Ethiopian Airlines plane that crashed.

He said: "As a result of new data that we received this morning, and had the chance to analyze, and on the advice of my experts and as a precautionary measure, I issued a safety notice.

"This safety notice restricts commercial passenger flights from any operator of the Boeing 737 MAX 8 or MAX 9 variant aircraft, whether domestic or foreign, from arriving, departing or overflying Canadian air space.

"This safety notice is effective immediately and will remain in place until further notice."
 

WatcherZero

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One thing I find to be quite interesting on this one is reports of flames from the rear of the plane before it crashed - unless the APU was running there is not a lot in the tail that *could* catch fire. Does the 737 MAX have lithium-ion batteries of the type that caused issues on the 787? If this is found to be the cause this could ground a *lot* more aircraft for major redesigns.

The uneven air flow can cause the fuel not to be burnt properly and so you get lots of smoke out of the APU, not flames just smoke (unburnt fuel).

Whats particularly interesting with the Canada ban is they've said they didn't base it directly on the crash but on analysing the flight paths of MAX flying within their airspace and seeing that they were experiencing the same struggle for altitude and erratic ascent speed.
 

robk23oxf

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Moments ago the United States announced they're grounding the 737 MAX fleet. It seemed likely they would do so after Canada grounded them earlier today.
 

Bletchleyite

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The uneven air flow can cause the fuel not to be burnt properly and so you get lots of smoke out of the APU, not flames just smoke (unburnt fuel).

Whats particularly interesting with the Canada ban is they've said they didn't base it directly on the crash but on analysing the flight paths of MAX flying within their airspace and seeing that they were experiencing the same struggle for altitude and erratic ascent speed.

The APU wouldn't normally be running in flight.
 

Bald Rick

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Not before time - I now expect Boeing share price to nose dive like their planes.

It was already down 10% earlier this week, and another 2% today. However that was set against quite a lot of growth already this year so essentially it is back to where it was 6 weeks ago.
 

WatcherZero

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The APU wouldn't normally be running in flight.

On the 737 is provides secondary and backup power during flight charging the battery and air conditioning and cabin pressurisation during take off. MAX does use it less, the new APU has three air intake settings Closed, Ground position (45deg) and Flight position (17deg). Having the APU in flight position increases fuel consumption by 1%.
 

YorkshireBear

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Bbc reports that US pilots have also reported the issue of having sharp nose down instructions.
 
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