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EU Elections 2019

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hooverboy

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Labour have become like Communism, Marxism or Maoism. Are you having a laugh? You make them sound like the Khmer Rouge when they are actually more like Denmark or Sweden.
having worked in both denmarks and sweden quite substantially for the last 10 years I can assure you that's not the case!
their left wing is nowhere near as left as corbyn.
 
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Groningen

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It is interesting to see if these results were translated in the seat for members of Parlement (so a General Election) where the winner takes the seat. How many seats would the Brexit Party than receive?
 

A Challenge

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The Lib Dems ( and the Greens) did well becuase they were unequivocally anti Brexit and cleaned up the remain vote.
Can the Green's vote be considered anti-Brexit as Green parties across the EU did well, not because they had a position on Brexit that was popular in their countries but because of the climate change crisis?
 

anme

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Can the Green's vote be considered anti-Brexit as Green parties across the EU did well, not because they had a position on Brexit that was popular in their countries but because of the climate change crisis?

As with the local elections, we can expect a lot of this stuff - claims that votes for clearly anti-brexit parties were not about brexit, but votes for clearly pro-brexit parties were about brexit.
 

AlterEgo

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The idea that the Labour Party is “like Denmark or Sweden” is funny.

Denmark has a centre-right and libertarian coalition government. It could not be less like Labour!
 

Groningen

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The government of Denmark wanted or has allowed to take all important value belongings from refugees coming to that country. More extreme right than extreme left.
 

A Challenge

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As with the local elections, we can expect a lot of this stuff - claims that votes for clearly anti-brexit parties were not about brexit, but votes for clearly pro-brexit parties were about brexit.
To be honest, I see no way that the same can be argued for UKIP or the Brexit party, they haven't really got any other policies? Also, the Green Party have said this themselves, saying that some of their vote was because they were a clear vote for Remain, but that they also were going to be tackling climate change (see in particular the section I have bolded):

Green deputy leader Amelia Womack has acknowledged that many Remain supporters voted for the party because were a "clear voice" against Brexit.

The number of Green MEPs has gone up from three to seven after counting overnight.

"We were talking about Brexit and we were talking about climate change," Ms Womack said.

She added: "We've built on our track record of delivering in the European Parliament - whether that's tackling tax dodging, climate change, air pollution, environmental destruction, austerity - and we're proving our ability in regions where we simply haven't won before."

Next people will be saying that the Greens got their three seats on anti-Brexit stance in 2014? One thing I do find surprising is that Change UK didn't really do that well, I was expecting (hoping) they would do better than that! How much of this is self interest (yet another example of the demise of two-party politics in Great Britain [well excluding Scotland, which has been close to one-party with the SNP in recent years])
 

edwin_m

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To be honest, I see no way that the same can be argued for UKIP or the Brexit party, they haven't really got any other policies? Also, the Green Party have said this themselves, saying that some of their vote was because they were a clear vote for Remain, but that they also were going to be tackling climate change (see in particular the section I have bolded):
Other policies also provide reasons for people to disagree with them. Since the Greens clearly set out their support for a referendum and to campaign for remaining, and this was the most important issue in this election, it's pretty unlikely people who strongly supported leaving would support them. But we can't be certain, and that's the reason why the firm proposal for Brexit needs to be finalised and put to a referendum.
One thing I do find surprising is that Change UK didn't really do that well, I was expecting (hoping) they would do better than that! How much of this is self interest (yet another example of the demise of two-party politics in Great Britain [well excluding Scotland, which has been close to one-party with the SNP in recent years])
Although more representative than the Westminster system, the rules for electing the UK's MEPs start to disadvantage parties that get below about 25% (North East England has only three seats) and are very disadvantageous to those around the 10% mark. At the start of the campaign there were three Britain-wide pro-referendum and pro-remain groups at about that level, and if they had stayed there then Brexit party would have had far more seats than the three together.

So this was a case of tactical voting for the pro-remain party most likely to win seats, which was the Lib Dems in most of England (probably boosted by their success in council elections where their have good grass roots campaigning and Change UK didn't stand). The Greens were also in with a good chance in some regions . This was successful - the number of seats won by the referendum and remain parties was only slightly below those for the Brexit party, although their total votes were slightly more than those of Brexit plus UKIP. The challenge now is for these three parties to come to an arrangement that avoids splitting the vote in the likely event of a general election under the much more unfair Westminster system.
 

A Challenge

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Other policies also provide reasons for people to disagree with them. Since the Greens clearly set out their support for a referendum and to campaign for remaining, and this was the most important issue in this election, it's pretty unlikely people who strongly supported leaving would support them. But we can't be certain, and that's the reason why the firm proposal for Brexit needs to be finalised and put to a referendum.
Last time we had a referendum it was 52/48 and therefore controversial, and I can't see it being much less close even if remain win. I actually don't see why either leave or Remain would want a referendum (well I know that leave don't want it as they are worried remain might win and they've got theirs, and remain want it so they can say that people no longer want Brexit) as it would just cause problems with Brexiteers feeling betrayed (for example Nigel Farage would want best of three), so with the best will in the world it isn't going to solve anything - as even if leave win again people will be complaining about it not being valid like happened after the first one, though to be honest leave don't really want a second referendum anyway!

The whole point of the previous referendum was to stop the debate over Brexit with a remain win, but that didn't happen, and who's to say that even a remain win in another referendum would stop it? I certainly don't think it would, as I said above about Nigel (and others will as well). If the Brexit Party MEPs manage to annoy the EU enough (which is their intention, they've said) we may not have much chance of another extension, especially as France want us to get out if we're going as well!
 

Ianno87

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Other policies also provide reasons for people to disagree with them. Since the Greens clearly set out their support for a referendum and to campaign for remaining, and this was the most important issue in this election, it's pretty unlikely people who strongly supported leaving would support them. But we can't be certain, and that's the reason why the firm proposal for Brexit needs to be finalised and put to a referendum.

A useful reminder that in the time we as a nation are wasting in pursuit of the folly of Brexit, the real action we could instead be doing on climate change...
 

yorksrob

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Last time we had a referendum it was 52/48 and therefore controversial, and I can't see it being much less close even if remain win. I actually don't see why either leave or Remain would want a referendum (well I know that leave don't want it as they are worried remain might win and they've got theirs, and remain want it so they can say that people no longer want Brexit) as it would just cause problems with Brexiteers feeling betrayed (for example Nigel Farage would want best of three), so with the best will in the world it isn't going to solve anything - as even if leave win again people will be complaining about it not being valid like happened after the first one, though to be honest leave don't really want a second referendum anyway!

The whole point of the previous referendum was to stop the debate over Brexit with a remain win, but that didn't happen, and who's to say that even a remain win in another referendum would stop it? I certainly don't think it would, as I said above about Nigel (and others will as well). If the Brexit Party MEPs manage to annoy the EU enough (which is their intention, they've said) we may not have much chance of another extension, especially as France want us to get out if we're going as well!

In the absense of a deal which parliament will vote for, the only options are no deal or no Brexit. Parliament doesn't have a mandate for either of those, the Tories won't allow a general election, Europe won't renegotiate the deal, so the only option with any credibility left is another referendum.
 

anme

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Last time we had a referendum it was 52/48 and therefore controversial, and I can't see it being much less close even if remain win. I actually don't see why either leave or Remain would want a referendum (well I know that leave don't want it as they are worried remain might win and they've got theirs, and remain want it so they can say that people no longer want Brexit) as it would just cause problems with Brexiteers feeling betrayed (for example Nigel Farage would want best of three), so with the best will in the world it isn't going to solve anything - as even if leave win again people will be complaining about it not being valid like happened after the first one, though to be honest leave don't really want a second referendum anyway!

The whole point of the previous referendum was to stop the debate over Brexit with a remain win, but that didn't happen, and who's to say that even a remain win in another referendum would stop it? I certainly don't think it would, as I said above about Nigel (and others will as well). If the Brexit Party MEPs manage to annoy the EU enough (which is their intention, they've said) we may not have much chance of another extension, especially as France want us to get out if we're going as well!

Then what do you suggest? How do we solve the brexit problem?
 

anme

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In the absense of a deal which parliament will vote for, the only options are no deal or no Brexit. Parliament doesn't have a mandate for either of those, the Tories won't allow a general election, Europe won't renegotiate the deal, so the only option with any credibility left is another referendum.

I wouldn't completely rule out a general election. It doesn't take many conservatives to vote against the government in a confidence motion to bring it down. Potentially as few as two could do it, even assuming the DUP vote with the government. If a new leader tries for a no deal brexit, that could happen.

It might even be that the next prime minster chooses a general election over a referendum. The remainers won the European elections, and polls indicate they would win a fourth referendum. A true believer brexiter PM might prefer to take their chances in a general election, where they could potentially make a pact with the brexit party and rely on the first past the post system to put them back in power with 40-45% of the vote (maybe less), than call a referendum they may well lose.
 

A Challenge

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Then what do you suggest? How do we solve the brexit problem?
I'm not a politician or civil servant, I shouldn't be expected to know (unlike them) - to be honest I'm not sure what the best way out of this is - I just don't think a second referendum (as in Scotland for independence) will solve it. If we'd had a second referendum in 2016 between the different leave options (accepting leave was happening), it could have gone so much smoother (not guaranteed, but likely). Wouldn't have annoyed Brexiteers as much of remain wasn't an option, and unlike now I think they could have got away with that then!

Democracy - if we win, that's it, if you win we do it again and again until we get the result we want - doesn't sound like democracy does it?
 

anme

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I'm not a politician or civil servant, I shouldn't be expected to know (unlike them) - to be honest I'm not sure what the best way out of this is - I just don't think a second referendum (as in Scotland for independence) will solve it. If we'd had a second referendum in 2016 between the different leave options (accepting leave was happening), it could have gone so much smoother (not guaranteed, but likely). Wouldn't have annoyed Brexiteers as much of remain wasn't an option, and unlike now I think they could have got away with that then!

Democracy - if we win, that's it, if you win we do it again and again until we get the result we want - doesn't sound like democracy does it?

No, that's having a consistent opinion. And by the way we have had three referendums on membership of the EU so far.

We have general elections at least every five years. Is that democratic by your definition?
 

SteveP29

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I don't doubt that sadly. However, putting the facts bluntly to them, i.e. no deal means decades of trade renegotiations, higher tariffs, higher prices, trade offs in the form of aid & visa relaxation and less opportunity overseas for UK industry might just be heard by enough over the noise. And if not, they will be at blame!

It'll be project fear and scaremongering.

They won't be saying that when their cost of living goes beyond their earning power.
 

ashkeba

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The idea that the Labour Party is “like Denmark or Sweden” is funny.

Denmark has a centre-right and libertarian coalition government. It could not be less like Labour!
The claim was that Labour was more like Denmark or Sweden than it's like the Khmer Rouge. Do you really think Labour is more like the Khmer Rouge then?
 

ashkeba

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It is interesting to see if these results were translated in the seat for members of Parlement (so a General Election) where the winner takes the seat. How many seats would the Brexit Party than receive?
We can't tell seat numbers because these results were reported by borough not MP constituency and people knew they were proportional so less tactical voting occurred. However, Conservatives got 42% vote share in 2017 and no majority, so Brexit Party's 35ish% probably puts us in hung parliaments again.

Their secret policies and don't-ask-don't-tell funding should probably hurt them much more in a general election, too. The lack of interest in that this time has been a disgrace.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Last time we had a referendum it was 52/48 and therefore controversial, and I can't see it being much less close even if remain win. I actually don't see why either leave or Remain would want a referendum (well I know that leave don't want it as they are worried remain might win and they've got theirs, and remain want it so they can say that people no longer want Brexit) as it would just cause problems with Brexiteers feeling betrayed (for example Nigel Farage would want best of three), so with the best will in the world it isn't going to solve anything - as even if leave win again people will be complaining about it not being valid like happened after the first one, though to be honest leave don't really want a second referendum anyway!

I don't think that's quite correct. The problem with the last referendum was that is was fundamentally flawed in its design: It put a definite option ("remain in the EU") against a statement ("leave the EU") that was totally vague because it didn't specify what our future relationship with the EU should be. And the result is that some people voted leave expecting a reasonably close deal and trading relationship with the EU. Some would have voted leave thinking we would get an EFTA-type arrangement. A few would have voted Leave thinking we'd go for a total break and WTO rules. Those are all completely different options, and the referendum failed to distinguish between them. And arguably the reason why Parliament has become so paralysed about leaving is that there is no one version of Brexit that carries majority support (and there's possibly no one version of Brexit that carries anything like as much support as Remain carries). To be deliverable, a referendum really needs to put two specific (and achievable) options against each other. That's the main reason why I personally think another referendum is the best way forward: We need a referendum that puts Remain against a specific, agreed, deal for leaving the EU, and which can therefore be immediately implemented if it wins the vote.

The whole point of the previous referendum was to stop the debate over Brexit with a remain win, but that didn't happen, and who's to say that even a remain win in another referendum would stop it? I certainly don't think it would, as I said above about Nigel (and others will as well).

There is a difference though. If Remain won a 2nd referendum with a small margin, then yes, it's not going to end the debate. Farage et al will doubtless be campaigning for a 3rd referendum. But in that case, it'll just be a political campaign outside of Westminster. While that's going on, the Government will actually be able to get on with running the country without worrying about Brexit - unlike the current situation where for 3 years, the Government has been effectively paralysed trying to work out a Brexit that was actually too vague to be deliverable in the first place. And of course, if Leave won a 2nd referendum on a specific agreed Brexit deal, then we'd presumably leave the EU very quickly afterwards - so from the point of view of Governing the country, it's a win either way. (Even if I'd argue that from the point of view of the economy and international co-operation, it'd be a massive lose if we did vote to leave)
 

A Challenge

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We have general elections at least every five years. Is that democratic by your definition?
General elections are different, as they are done every five years no matter what. Anyway, I feel I'm starting to stay from a neutral position with this, as this is an argument by Brexiteers, and my original post was trying to explain mainly the reasons why I think a referendum is bad for remain, as it will just add fuel to the fire, as well as leave, which is well-known!
 

Bantamzen

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I'm not a politician or civil servant, I shouldn't be expected to know (unlike them) - to be honest I'm not sure what the best way out of this is - I just don't think a second referendum (as in Scotland for independence) will solve it. If we'd had a second referendum in 2016 between the different leave options (accepting leave was happening), it could have gone so much smoother (not guaranteed, but likely). Wouldn't have annoyed Brexiteers as much of remain wasn't an option, and unlike now I think they could have got away with that then!

Democracy - if we win, that's it, if you win we do it again and again until we get the result we want - doesn't sound like democracy does it?

Regarding that last sentence, democracy is exactly that. If a previous decision to do something starts to cause problems & maybe even risks that were not previously seen or communicated properly, then absolutely we should be able to review the decision. It is worth re-noting at this time that referendum in this country are not legally binding mandates, they are advisory only. That the Conservative government chose to go ahead with the invocation of A50 was partly policy, partly vote scoring.

Leavers have long banged on about the 52% or 17.4 million voter's views being respected. And in normal circumstances I would agree, at the time of the result I personally felt that we should go ahead and leave . However the absolute cluster-you-know-what that has been the negotiations, economic, & political impacts means that I now feel that there simply wasn't enough of a clear steer from the Leavers. Really this should have been addressed back in 2016, the referendum should have addressed the options & not just A50. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but however we must now address the situation as it is. Westminster has been unable to agree a deal, the public including leavers are deeply divided on how it should be done, and the political spectrum is in meltdown. So if a deal cannot be reached in the Houses, and a no-deal scenario is clearly going to be too damaging to the country, then tough decisions need to be made meaning we withdraw from A50, re-set a new, detailed referendum & restart A50 if a leave vote is still returned.

Whilst the option will deeply upset hard core leavers, I'm sorry to say the vanity project that has become Brexit is not enough reason to send this country into potentially decades of economic issues. If we are to leave the EU, it must be in an orderly, amicable, and most importantly mutually beneficial manner for both sides.
 

Howardh

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No but really where were they please?
There's a huge amount of people out there who are simply either disinterested, dissatisfied or simply ignorant of the issues, and politics in general and Brexit in particular is way above/below them.
Give you an example, we have carers coming in daily who have qualifications from work or college (even uni) and many who sit with mum while I'm out get out their files and do their "homework". So they're bright people.
Yet when the come in and I have the news on, and it's Brexit, they are asking ME what it's all about. It's not a leg-pull, they simply don't have a clue. It's not on their radar.
Their radar is sleep>work>husband>kids>Love Island>sleep.
It's like if I were suddenly uprooted and landed in Rwanda and their politics was on the news...whoosh, I'll give that one a miss.
Maybe politics should be like Eurovision, where the public are given only 50% of the say and the rest is made up of professional juries!!
 

Howardh

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It is interesting to see if these results were translated in the seat for members of Parlement (so a General Election) where the winner takes the seat. How many seats would the Brexit Party than receive?
Difficult to say, we're in uncharted waters. But last time at the Euros UKIP (Brexit Party are Ukip in disguise) won almost as many seats as Brexit did this time, yet scored one (I think, may have been 2 or even 0) the general election after (15) and I don't think any in 17. Voters reverted back to blue/white, although under our system it's difficult for any other parties to beat the mainstream ones.
Of course in Scotland the SNP would be well represented in parliament - the REAL opposition!!
 
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Leavers have long banged on about the 52% or 17.4 million voter's views being respected.
Absolutely this. Every week we hear those two figures used on-and-on by Eurosceptic MPs, Politicians and readers of the Daily Mail, who would rather use those figures and other connected slogans such as "but Brexit means Brexit" and "but the will of the people!" as a crutch to justify their views rather than backing themselves up with facts and statistics from "so-called experts". And yet, I hear nothing about the 48% or 16.4 million who voted the other way.

"The 52%" from 2016 complains that they're not being respected, whereas the 48% have just been outright ignored by people that continuously claim they want to deliver what the people voted for. No sane politician should deliver on an advisory poll with such a slim majority, where the majority is within a margin of error, where the "winning" side have since been found guilty of electoral fraud, where outright lies were allowed to go unchallenge and unpunished.

As Farage once said, "If Brexit is a disaster, I'll live abroad". Wiser words have never been spoken by such a man. It's probably the only statement he's made that I could agree with.
 

bramling

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Difficult to say, we're in uncharted waters. But last time at the Euros UKIP (Brexit Party are Ukip in disguise) won almost as many seats as Brexit did this time, yet scored one (I think, may have been 2 or even 0) the general election after (15) and I don't think any in 17. Voters reverted back to blue/white, although under our system it's difficult for any other parties to beat the mainstream ones.
Of course in Scotland the SNP would be well represented in parliament - the REAL opposition!!

I think it’s dangerous to consider the SNP as any kind of opposition. Never forget that their main raison d’etre is to achieve independence by whatever means they can. They’re certainly not there to stand up for or represent people in England, Wales or Northern Ireland.

The idea of any kind of coalition involving the SNP fills me with horror. The DUP one hasn’t exactly been milk and honey, and I think an SNP one would prove worse.

Sturgeon and friends have attempted to turn Scotland into a hateful nation, and in that sense any criticism of Farage from their quarters is pot kettle black.
 

Howardh

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I think it’s dangerous to consider the SNP as any kind of opposition. Never forget that their main raison d’etre is to achieve independence by whatever means they can. They’re certainly not there to stand up for or represent people in England, Wales or Northern Ireland.

The idea of any kind of coalition involving the SNP fills me with horror. The DUP one hasn’t exactly been milk and honey, and I think an SNP one would prove worse.

Sturgeon and friends have attempted to turn Scotland into a hateful nation, and in that sense any criticism of Farage from their quarters is pot kettle black.
If a coalition with the SNP keeps us in the EU and (paradoxically) the Union together then that can only be a good thing. As it stands SOMETHING has to give.

The current issue is the choice of next PM will be clouded by the Brexit issue. If ALL candidates decided to give us a no-deal/remain referendum if they couldn't strike a deal then they could wash their hands of Brexit and attend to other important issues. What are the chances the candidates will be questioned on the NHS, transport, environment? Time brexit was put to bed so we could sort out the normal stuff and keep Scotland (and Norn) in the Union.

It was working until 2016....
 

anme

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General elections are different, as they are done every five years no matter what. Anyway, I feel I'm starting to stay from a neutral position with this, as this is an argument by Brexiteers, and my original post was trying to explain mainly the reasons why I think a referendum is bad for remain, as it will just add fuel to the fire, as well as leave, which is well-known!

Speaking purely hypothetically and not about a specific case, would it be democratic to proceed with implementing a referendum decision made some years ago, if a majority are now against it?
 

GusB

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I think it’s dangerous to consider the SNP as any kind of opposition. Never forget that their main raison d’etre is to achieve independence by whatever means they can. They’re certainly not there to stand up for or represent people in England, Wales or Northern Ireland.

The idea of any kind of coalition involving the SNP fills me with horror. The DUP one hasn’t exactly been milk and honey, and I think an SNP one would prove worse.

Sturgeon and friends have attempted to turn Scotland into a hateful nation, and in that sense any criticism of Farage from their quarters is pot kettle black.
Let me say from the outset that I'm not a blind follower of the SNP, but I have agreed with some of their policies, and they've had my vote on several occasions. That's not to say that I agree with everything they've done.

I really cannot understand what fills you with horror so much. Yes, they have independence as a primary objective, but aside from that their policies are generally left of centre, and frankly they've been better at opposing than Labour.

As for your statement about them turning Scotland into a hateful nation - it's just utter nonsense. I might suggest that it's Farage and his ilk that are promoting a hateful nation. Look a bit closer to home before you criticise us.
 

bramling

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If a coalition with the SNP keeps us in the EU and (paradoxically) the Union together then that can only be a good thing. As it stands SOMETHING has to give.

The current issue is the choice of next PM will be clouded by the Brexit issue. If ALL candidates decided to give us a no-deal/remain referendum if they couldn't strike a deal then they could wash their hands of Brexit and attend to other important issues. What are the chances the candidates will be questioned on the NHS, transport, environment? Time brexit was put to bed so we could sort out the normal stuff and keep Scotland (and Norn) in the Union.

It was working until 2016....

The question is whether people in Scotland actually care as much about EU membership as Sturgeon claims.

I agree Brexit should be put to bed - personally I’d have preferred that to happen via no deal back on 29th March.
 

bramling

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Let me say from the outset that I'm not a blind follower of the SNP, but I have agreed with some of their policies, and they've had my vote on several occasions. That's not to say that I agree with everything they've done.

I really cannot understand what fills you with horror so much. Yes, they have independence as a primary objective, but aside from that their policies are generally left of centre, and frankly they've been better at opposing than Labour.

As for your statement about them turning Scotland into a hateful nation - it's just utter nonsense. I might suggest that it's Farage and his ilk that are promoting a hateful nation. Look a bit closer to home before you criticise us.

Sturgeon is a hate-filled nationalist. Much of what emanates from the SNP is an attempt to promote a “us and them” culture between Scotland and the rest of the UK. The SNP at Westminster behave like a bunch of naughty schoolchildren, I suspect many elsewhere in the UK turn off when they see the latest angry hysterical outburst from Blackford at PMQs.

I’ve never been able to reconcile the fact that Sturgeon hates one union with a passion, but seems to love another union. I guess someone would have to prop up an independent Scotland, and by definition it wouldn’t be English taxpayers like at the moment.
 
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