EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ainsworth74, 23 Jun 2016.

  1. Busaholic

    Busaholic Established Member

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    I'm surprised that I'm the first to mention Tony Blair's speech today - he is apparently 'on a mission' to persuade the UK public that the Remain vote in the referendum was a disaster-in-the-making because the terms were never made clear. He obviously feels that not only the 48% Remainers will support him but a proportion of non-voters and even some Leavers. The bits I heard of the speech I felt were typically well-crafted, but I was just left with the overwhelming sadness that there was never a hope that such a speech could have been made by the current leader of the Labour Party, even in the unlikely event of him wishing to do so. After all, it is believed that two-thirds of Labour Party supporters voted Remain, but obviously they were concentrated in London and the SE, plus places like Exeter, Bristol and Newcastle, rather than Middlesbrough or Rochdale.
     
  2. shakey1961

    shakey1961 Member

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    For me, it's very very simple.

    1. We live a democracy

    2. A vote in a democracy means the person/group/whatever that gets the most votes wins, esp in a simple YES/NO referendum.

    3. The Question was "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or Leave the European Union?"

    4. 17 Million voted to Leave, 16 Million voted to stay

    5. Democratically the people who voted decided a majority wanted to Leave.

    6. Leave wins - Get on with it END OF!

    The referendum was a absolute perfect example of democracy working at its best. Our General elections are not as clear cut as this. Take this scenario for example...

    Party 1 get's 40% of the vote, Party 2 get's 30% of the vote, Party 3 get's 20% of the vote. Party 1 wins! But hang on Parties 2 and 3 have 50% of the people who voted against the winner.
     
  3. Groningen

    Groningen Established Member

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    Tony Blair is so damaged to follow the USA to invade Iraq, that he still is not believeable for me. Someone else should pull the pro EU vote. Not this man.
     
  4. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo Veteran Member

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    "END OF" is almost like a British Trumpism.

    Get on with what exactly? Apart from triggering Article 50, what else should we all be getting on with?

    It's not nearly as simple as many Leavers like to think.
     
  5. 3141

    3141 Established Member

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    You're using a different meaning of the word "liberty". I used it in the sense of being free, not imprisoned or restricted in your life in the country in question, able to express your views even if they are different from those of the government. You've used it in the sense of having a right to go elsewhere. Not comparable, as AlterEgo has said in his post.

    In any case, we don't yet know what the effect of Brexit will be on your current right to live and work in the EU.
     
  6. Senex

    Senex Established Member

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    He was at least expressing the opposition to May's hard-line hard Brexit please-the-52-per-cent-only approach that is going so easily through the parliamentary processes, to the great delight of the Tory backwoodsmen living in their imperial past and with no protests of any significance from the official opposition (save for a very limited number who have been prepared to nail their colours to the mast)
    .
     
  7. Senex

    Senex Established Member

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    So who is the person to do it? Certainly not the Leader of "Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition" from what we've seen and heard.
     
  8. Senex

    Senex Established Member

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    Tell that to the Independent candidate in the Stoke by-election.
     
  9. EM2

    EM2 Established Member

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    Have they been arrested for saying something, then?
     
  10. Senex

    Senex Established Member

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    See today's Guardian under "Stoke By-election Candidate ..." (sorry - don't know how to do links on an iPad).
     
  11. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Established Member

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    I disagree. The example was relevant because it shows up the fallacy of the 'more than 50% voted for it therefore we must all do it without question' kind of argument that many on the Brexit side keep putting forward. My question was in direct response to a poster who appeared to be making exactly that kind of argument.

    The obvious moral problem with my example is that it would represent a (hypothetical) vote by a majority to persecute a minority, which is clearly wrong, and I'm sure most of us would agree that's not what democracy should be about. In fact the idea that what the majority vote for should always be done is - in political theory - known, not as 'democracy' but as 'tyranny of the majority' and my example shows up exactly the reason for that. Far too many people on the Brexit side are abusing the word 'democracy' by using it to refer to what is clearly actually 'tyranny of the majority'.

    Although my example was hypothetical, there's a good case for arguing that it's not too dissimilar to the Brexit vote, because the Brexit vote also represents a vote by a small majority [*]whose effect is likely to be to remove rights from a minority: In this case, the minority consists of those who have moved or plan to move between the UK and other European countries, who potentially are looking at their right to live in their chosen country being destroyed. In the case of those who have already migrated, many fact the real worry that they may in a couple of years time be prevented from living in their adopted home - and there are already some fairly horrific stories going round of the impact that is having on individual people. I personally believe that a fair Government would recognise that that is wrong, and cannot morally be justified by a 'more than 50% voted for it so we must all accept it' argument.


    [*] Although given the very well-aired arguments about the British Government's somewhat arbitrary decisions about who was allowed to vote - most notably, excluding EU citizens from voting, even when those citizens have been living in the UK for decades and so clearly are permanent residents here who should have had the right to a say in their own futures, it's questionable whether it really was a vote by a majority of the adult population. But that's another argument.


    I'm glad you think so - and I would agree with you completely there. But, sadly, there are many on the Brexit side who appear not to agree with that, and it is to those people that my hypothetical question was aimed.
     
    Last edited: 17 Feb 2017
  12. shakey1961

    shakey1961 Member

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    "END OF" as in end of arguments, end of voting, result has been announced, we've given the politicians our answer now start getting us out of Europe.

    You asked us did we want to Remain or Leave. We voted to Leave, so can you kindly start the process of leaving the EU.

    Simples
     
  13. Busaholic

    Busaholic Established Member

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    It would be better if someone else of stature who wasn't 'damaged goods' was prepared to stand up and say some of what Blair said, but nobody came forward, and it can't wait any longer. Too many people are scared stiff of the 'undemocratic' argument, even though a lot of those saying 'we got a million more votes' also say 'Trump was democratically elected even though he got three million fewer votes than Clinton' so their take on absolute numbers varies according to the result.
     
  14. radamfi

    radamfi Established Member

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    I think if it looked like it was going to be a soft Brexit like what most commentators expected, then Blair might not have got involved.

    Many Leavers are very unhappy at the current trajectory. This prominent anti-EU blogger has consistently wanted to stay in the single market so posted this:

    http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86347

     
  15. burneside

    burneside Member

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    Really, how do you know that? May's strategy is everything I expected from Cameron's successor.
     
  16. radamfi

    radamfi Established Member

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    Read the comments to that blog post. You would have thought that people so enthusiastic about leaving the EU would be the least likely to want to stay in the single market.
     
  17. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Established Member

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    That sounds like you're saying that whatever most people vote for in a referendum MUST be enacted, no matter what the arguments for or against are and no matter who might get hurt. Yes?

    I wonder therefore if you could please answer my earlier question of what you would do if the referendum had been that all foreigners in the UK should be put to death and had been passed? Would you be helping kill foreigners, on the basis that that's what democracy demands, or would you be protesting that the decision was wrong?
     
  18. burneside

    burneside Member

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    I don't really fancy trawling through 700+ posts, thank-you. But if they are predominantly in favour of staying in the single market they don't sound very much like Leavers to me. Although the blogger (who I've never heard of) does admit to deleting posts. Now why would he do that?
     
  19. Trog

    Trog Established Member

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    I don't see that much has changed since before the vote both sides were talking rubbish and they both still seem to be at it. Tony Bliar seems to be saying that at the end of the negotiations there should be a second referendum so the people can decide if they prefer to leave on those conditions or stay in. However negotiations do not start until article 50 is invoked which is the we are leaving now process.

    So a second referendum would be pointless as by the time it happens we will already be out of the EU, and the second vote will not change that whatever the result. As implementing any instruction to parliament to reverse course will not be in their gift to deliver. Any more than voting to instruct them to repeal the law of gravity would be.
     
  20. paulweaver

    paulweaver On Moderation

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    I wonder if the Dept for International Trade got the memo.


    Sure, we'll have a trade deal with Canada. Until April Fools Day 2019 when we foolishly leave the EU and have no international trade deals.

    Should someone tell Liam Fox what brexit actually means?
     
  21. EM2

    EM2 Established Member

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    So, should that include leaving Europol, Euratom, and the European Court of Human Rights?
     
  22. shakey1961

    shakey1961 Member

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    What is the point in having a referendum if the result isn't enacted? It must be enacted appropriately. Theresa May isn't going to the EU, clearing the UK desk, strutting off, slamming the door behind her and saying Bye Bye, sod off the lot of you.

    If you were at Preston station, you wouldn't buy a ticket for London, get on the Pendolino with all the departure boards and information saying it was going to London, only for it to whizz up north to Glasgow.

    As for your killing all foreigners example, you use an extreme argument that would never happen. Do you really think the British public would vote for that - NEVER.

    Stop trying to justify the losing argument, I'm sorry you lost and feel hurt, but it's over. Let's get on with it and all work together to get the best deal we can.
     
  23. shakey1961

    shakey1961 Member

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    Yes! But before we leave we have an agreement to work very closely together, just like we do with the US.

    Look, do you think we're just going to totally walk away? There's 2 years of hard bargaining ahead. The PM has said she'd pay to be in something if it was good for the UK. We haven't even started negotiations yet.
     
    Last edited: 18 Feb 2017
  24. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo Veteran Member

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    So you say yes.

    But that wasn't what the referendum was about, was it?

    It was simply about our membership of the European Union, not any other body. As you say yourself - "simples" (!)

    Except it isn't simple at all, nobody knows what a post-EU Britain would look like, there are a number of models and no particular model was being voted for in the referendum.

    A good rule of thumb is that when people say things like "simples" or "simple as that" it means they don't understand the complexity of the argument, and may in fact have no desire to. "END OF".

    :)
     
  25. EM2

    EM2 Established Member

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    Even though two of those are completely separate to the European Union?
    You want us to leave organisations that we didn't vote to leave!
     
    Last edited: 18 Feb 2017
  26. shakey1961

    shakey1961 Member

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    Now look, you're deliberately confusing the issue. We voted to leave the European Union. If something is European and not connected to the "EU" organisation then we stay put.

    No we didn't vote for what model of Brexit we wanted, because that wasn't on the ballot paper. Can you imagine the confusion if it was. We voted to Leave. What kind of leave we get is down to the politicians.
     
  27. zuriblue

    zuriblue Member

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    Despite what you read in the tabloids the ECHR is nothing to do with the EU, it's run by the Council of Europe.
     
  28. Domh245

    Domh245 Established Member

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    Imagine how confusing it would have been if we knew on the morning of the 24th if the majority of the country had voted for a hard brexit, soft brexit or remain. I don't think the markets would have coped with all of that uncertainty!

    B.b.b.b.but it's got EUROPEAN in it's name!
     
  29. EM2

    EM2 Established Member

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    You're dead right that I'm deliberately confusing the issue. Theresa May wants us to withdraw from Euratom and the ECHR, and is supported in doing so by many Leavers, even though there is absolutely NO mandate to do so. And you agreed that we should, which suggests to me that you (and many other Leavers) don't actually know what the European Union even is.
     
  30. shakey1961

    shakey1961 Member

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    How were we ever to know what a final Brexit deal was going to be unless we voted for it? We couldn't get any deal until we voted Leave, triggered article 50, then, and only then, does the EU rule book say we can start negotiating.

    Of course we did have Cameron's "deal" on the table which we all knew about, not only did we vote to Leave, we also rejected something we knew was on the table already and we didn't like it.

    Once again, it's extremely simple and truly basic. Democracy. Group with the most votes wins. Leave Won, Remain Lost. What else is there to argue over?
     

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