EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[WelshBluebird]

Franco-German interests have set the EU agenda, undoubtedly. I don't believe stopping Germany taking up arms is sufficient reason for the country dominating Europe. The country has outgrown its old ways or it hasn't. I prefer to believe modern Germany doesn't require an expansionist agenda to maintain the peace.

I find this idea that France and Germany essentially rule the EU pretty ludicrous. It totally understates the amount of influence Britain has had in Europe until this talk of leaving (which has been an awful lot, just look at the amount of opt outs and concessions we have had just to prove that). Hell a lot of the regulations that the right wing press love to complain about actually were heavily influenced by Britain!

 

[meridian2]

The current Conservative Party isn't right wing, and certainly isn't traditionalist. It's an economically laissez faire, centralising, socially liberal mainstream European government. If it wasn't for Cameron's Brexit offer, which was always a political gambit not an ideological belief, the Tories would be indistinguishable from any other Western leaders.

 

[Howardh]

Apologies if this offends anyone but if you think that leaving the EU will result in our government having more concern for your own personal interests you are naive at best.

In fact, even less as we won't have Brussels to run to when they start to bully us, particularly workers rights, our basic freedoms, consumer rights and so on.

What makes anyone think the Tories will put the rights of workers before business? They might say that NOW...

 

[D365]

Post-Blair Labour (before Corbyn) was nothing like left wing, they were basically just a "junior Tory" party.

 

[meridian2]

I find this idea that France and Germany essentially rule the EU pretty ludicrous.

I commend this talk to you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CNeDtZmpjU

 

[WelshBluebird]

The current Conservative Party isn't right wing, and certainly isn't traditionalist. It's an economically laissez faire, centralising, socially liberal mainstream European government. If it wasn't for Cameron's Brexit offer, which was always a political gambit not an ideological belief, the Tories would be indistinguishable from any other Western leaders.

I'd say what you said is true of Cameron's government, but isn't true for May's government. May is pretty damn authoritarian and based on her voting record I don't really think you can say she is socially liberal either.

 

[Barn]

In fact, even less as we won't have Brussels to run to when they start to bully us, particularly workers rights, our basic freedoms, consumer rights and so on.

What makes anyone think the Tories will put the rights of workers before business? They might say that NOW...

If you feel that they are going in the wrong direction with employment law, consumer law, etc, you can do this wonderous thing which happens in democracies which is to vote them out and if the country agrees with you, they'll go.

 

[meridian2]

I'd say what you said is true of Cameron's government, but isn't true for May's government. May is pretty damn authoritarian and based on her voting record I don't really think you can say she is socially liberal either.

Much as it sticks in the craw to defend any Tory leader, the only authoritarian tendency I perceive in May is her willingness to implement the outcome of the referendum vote. In every other way she is a Europhile social and moral liberal. Had she not carried through the mandate her predecessor offered, she would have permanently discredited referendums as a political tool (no bad thing perhaps), but would have overseen a profoundly and unprecedentedly undemocratic move in modern British politics of not taking a public vote seriously. In a tribal voting system which privileges a few marginal seats and takes the rest of the population for granted, the EU referendum gave the opportunity to test British democracy in the raw. For all her liberal instincts May was a shrewd enough politician to see that stalling Brexit would have taken the UK into uncharted political waters, which given the already deep mistrust of politics and politicians was a risk she was not prepared to take.

 

[miami]

If you feel that they are going in the wrong direction with employment law, consumer law, etc, you can do this wonderous thing which happens in democracies which is to vote them out and if the country agrees with you, they'll go.

You realise that our unelected government is based on the votes of 51% of tory mps who as a party managed to get a mere 37% of the voters, or 1 in 4 over 18s, to support them?

Overall a mere 17% of the UK voted for a party with David Cameron in charge, and 0% voted for a party with Theresa May in charge. I think it's safe that "if the country agrees with you" is not part of the process for choosing a government.

Given that the remain side won the argument about the EU being far more democratic than our system (with arguments from the leave side devolving to "the views on the many only count if the people voting don't speak a different language to me")

 

[Barn]

I'd say what you said is true of Cameron's government, but isn't true for May's government. May is pretty damn authoritarian and based on her voting record I don't really think you can say she is socially liberal either.

What voting record? As a minister she would have voted with the Government alongside every other minister. She voted for same-sex marriages (and indeed led for the Conservative party on the proposal in discussion with Lib Dems).

 

[WelshBluebird]

Much as it sticks in the craw to defend any Tory leader, the only authoritarian tendency I perceive in May is her willingness to implement the outcome of the referendum vote. In every other way she is a Europhile social and moral liberal. Had she not carried through the mandate her predecessor offered, she would have permanently discredited referendums as a political tool (no bad thing perhaps), but would have overseen a profoundly and unprecedentedly undemocratic move in modern British politics of not taking a public vote seriously. In a tribal voting system which privileges a few marginal seats and takes the rest of the population for granted, the EU referendum gave the opportunity to test British democracy in the raw. For all her liberal instincts May was a shrewd enough politician to see that stalling Brexit would have taken the UK into uncharted political waters, which given the already deep mistrust of politics and politicians was a risk she was not prepared to take.

So the following things that May had a massive hand in do not have an authoritarian stench to you?

• The Investigatory Powers Act
• The Psychoactive Substances Act
• The Justice and Security Act
• The fact that her campaign team tried (not sure if they succeeded or not) to pull a Telegraph article where she was described as "a great self-promoter, but a terrible Home Secretary".

And that is just off the top of my head.
Then add to that some other things to back up the fact she isn't "socially liberal" such as introducing the rule that some non-EU immigrants need to earn £35k a year to stay in the country (when that is more than most UK nationals earn) and the fact she voted against reducing the age of consent for gay sex to match the age for the rest of us among other things.

I don't deny that her supporting Brexit is nothing more than a power play (infact I fully agree with that interpretation) but that doesn't mean she is socially liberal and not authoritarian.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You realise that our unelected government is based on the votes of 51% of tory mps who as a party managed to get a mere 37% of the voters, or 1 in 4 over 18s, to support them?

Overall a mere 17% of the UK voted for a party with David Cameron in charge, and 0% voted for a party with Theresa May in charge. I think it's safe that "if the country agrees with you" is not part of the process for choosing a government.

Given that the remain side won the argument about the EU being far more democratic than our system (with arguments from the leave side devolving to "the views on the many only count if the people voting don't speak a different language to me")

A most interesting use of statistics above. Based upon the same premise, can you use the same percentages to inform us of similar analogies for:-
A)...The Labour Party
B)...The Liberal Democrats Party

 

[WelshBluebird]

What voting record? As a minister she would have voted with the Government alongside every other minister. She voted for same-sex marriages (and indeed led for the Conservative party on the proposal in discussion with Lib Dems).

1 - Voting against reducing the age of consent for gay sex to 16 to match heterosexual sex.

2 - Voting against some human rights bills and for the bill to repeal the human rights act.

3 - Voted against allowing umarried heterosexual and homosexual couples to adopt.

4 - Has consistently voted in line with the government over the last 7 years to make the lives of disabled people more difficult.

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10426/theresa_may/maidenhead/votes

 

[Dave1987]

Much as it sticks in the craw to defend any Tory leader, the only authoritarian tendency I perceive in May is her willingness to implement the outcome of the referendum vote. In every other way she is a Europhile social and moral liberal. Had she not carried through the mandate her predecessor offered, she would have permanently discredited referendums as a political tool (no bad thing perhaps), but would have overseen a profoundly and unprecedentedly undemocratic move in modern British politics of not taking a public vote seriously. In a tribal voting system which privileges a few marginal seats and takes the rest of the population for granted, the EU referendum gave the opportunity to test British democracy in the raw. For all her liberal instincts May was a shrewd enough politician to see that stalling Brexit would have taken the UK into uncharted political waters, which given the already deep mistrust of politics and politicians was a risk she was not prepared to take.

You are joking aren't you? She is a massive hypocrite. When Gordon Brown took over from Tony Blair she said quite unequivocally that no one had voted for Brown as PM so there should be a general election. Yet when the shoe is on the other foot it's amazing how she suddenly forgets that!

 

[WelshBluebird]

You are joking aren't you? She is a massive hypocrite. When Gordon Brown took over from Tony Blair she said quite unequivocally that no one had voted for Brown as PM so there should be a general election. Yet when the shoe is on the other foot it's amazing how she suddenly forgets that!

To be fair I forgot that point too!
But an interesting one to bring up.

Of course, technically the line that we don't need an election is 100% correct (as technically we don't vote for a PM at all ever), but the fact she complained about Brown then did the same herself says it all.

 

[Domh245]

So the EU have hung a poster in their "Brexit war room"

Europe’s top Brexit officials have made clear their view of Britain’s bleak prospects in the forthcoming Article 50 negotiations by hanging a mocking poster on the walls of their Brexit war room.

The picture, a mocked up Tintin book cover entitled “Tintin and the Brexit Plan” became a social media meme earlier this year among remain supporters.

 

[meridian2]

You are joking aren't you? She is a massive hypocrite. When Gordon Brown took over from Tony Blair she said quite unequivocally that no one had voted for Brown as PM so there should be a general election. Yet when the shoe is on the other foot it's amazing how she suddenly forgets that!

Absolutely, party politics is institutional hypocrisy and it ill behoves any of us to forget the fact for one moment. On the other hand there is no requirement to hold a general election for a new leader - Churchill wasn't voted into power in WW2 - and May no doubt perceives the country to be on an emergency footing that does not need elections further distracting from the business of government. It isn't as though the Tories are in any danger of losing a general election unlike Brown's time as premier, nor is there any obvious replacement for May as PM now Boris has shot himself in the foot.

 

[najaB]

You are joking aren't you? She is a massive hypocrite. When Gordon Brown took over from Tony Blair she said quite unequivocally that no one had voted for Brown as PM so there should be a general election. Yet when the shoe is on the other foot it's amazing how she suddenly forgets that!

I'm no fan of the current PM but the difference between then and now is the Fixed Term Parliaments Act 2011.

 

[miami]

A most interesting use of statistics above. Based upon the same premise, can you use the same percentages to inform us of similar analogies for:-
A)...The Labour Party
B)...The Liberal Democrats Party

I'm not arguing that any one party had a stronger mandate in 2015, or even necessarily that there is a better system that we currently have for choosing the government.

I'm arguing that 83% of the country not agreeing with you is not "if the country agrees with you".

In 2010, a mere 13%% of the country agreed with Gordon Brown and he got kicked out. 16% of the country agreed with David Cameron, and 11% agreed with Nick Clegg, neither got power, they had to compromise with each other, and 27% of the country agreed that one of them them should be forming government.

In 2015 83% of the country did not agree with David Cameron, 17% did, and he got 100% of the power.

By comparrison in 1997, 23% of the country agreed with Blair.

 

[Barn]

1 - Voting against reducing the age of consent for gay sex to 16 to match heterosexual sex.

2 - Voting against some human rights bills and for the bill to repeal the human rights act.

3 - Voted against allowing umarried heterosexual and homosexual couples to adopt.

4 - Has consistently voted in line with the government over the last 7 years to make the lives of disabled people more difficult.

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10426/theresa_may/maidenhead/votes

These were whipped votes and T-May was on the frontbench. They don't really tell you much about Theresa May.

Some were also 15+ years ago (some slight barrel scraping going on, I think) and she has been clear that she would now have voted differently. It's fair to say that the Conservatives have been on a social liberalisation journey since the days of William Hague and Michael Howard.

 

[D365]

I'd say that calling Theresa May a "unsung hero" is stretching it a bit.

 

[dgl]

Theresa May is more Trump than hero, spiting Britain just to appease a small minority of the population, and people complaining about the unelected making the rules when their supposedly great leader was unelected (esp. when she complained about Gordon Brown when he became leader). I get that she needs friends at the moment and trump is one of the few people who she does seem to get on with but does she really think America first means Britain first?



Referendums are all well and good but, when the outcome is decided by such a small margin, by such a small percentage of the population, being lied to in order to get a result and something that despite what the brexiteers might claim will destroy Britain then sometimes you just have to say no and instead do the RIGHT thing for Britain. Brexit never has and never will be the right thing for Britain.

Sent from my Lumia 625 using Tapatalk

 

[WelshBluebird]

These were whipped votes and T-May was on the frontbench. They don't really tell you much about Theresa May.

Some were also 15+ years ago (some slight barrel scraping going on, I think) and she has been clear that she would now have voted differently. It's fair to say that the Conservatives have been on a social liberalisation journey since the days of William Hague and Michael Howard.

It is easy to change your opinion as public and political opinion changes. It is a lot harder to hold and champion those views when they go against those around you. May can only claim to be in the first category.

 

[gareth950]

The current Conservative Party isn't right wing, and certainly isn't traditionalist. It's an economically laissez faire, centralising, socially liberal mainstream European government.

 

[Tetchytyke]

These were whipped votes and T-May was on the frontbench. They don't really tell you much about Theresa May.

I disagree. I think they tell us a lot about Theresa May. They tell us she is entirely without principles and will say she believes in whatever is popular at the time.

So the EU have hung a poster in their "Brexit war room"

It's in the Telegraph, with no attributable sources, so it must be true.

 

[Railops]

I disagree. I think they tell us a lot about Theresa May. They tell us she is entirely without principles and will say she believes in whatever is popular at the time.



It's in the Telegraph, with no attributable sources, so it must be true.

So that's the Telegraph/Sun/Express/Mail/ all never to be trusted and full of lies, what paper would you believe ?

 

[Tetchytyke]

what paper would you believe ?

I don't believe any newspaper who doesn't attribute their sources.

 

[D365]

So that's the Telegraph/Sun/Express/Mail/ all never to be trusted and full of lies, what paper would you believe ?

A paper that isn't any of those?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Anyone reading this thread would assume many of the posters have been reading the Gospel according to St Momentum..

 

[Railops]

Anyone reading this thread would assume many of the posters have been reading the Gospel according to St Momentum..

St. Momentum obviously attributes his sources.