• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

Status
Not open for further replies.

burneside

Member
Joined
12 Sep 2011
Messages
231
Location
Isle of Dogs, London
If we (either an individual or the public at large) feel we are being hard done by the government that sits, are we not democratically empowered to challenge the government....which is exactly what Brexit wants (democracy, bringing control etc etc) or is it only democratic if Brexit likes it?

Now an individual won't have Brussels to appeal to, what exactly do we do? Sit down and hope our issues go away? That's the laughable thing about Brexit, they want democracy but to get it, they have removed, er, democracy.

Individuals potentially have the right to appeal all the way to the UK Supreme Court, I don't see any reason, or need, for Brussels to get involved at all. Perhaps that's why some people voted for Brexit, to get control of our laws back.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
8,161
Individuals potentially have the right to appeal all the way to the UK Supreme Court, I don't see any reason, or need, for Brussels to get involved at all. Perhaps that's why some people voted for Brexit, to get control of our laws back.

It IS reassuring that it's there that Ms Miller won her case against the UK Government, but it also means it's the new end of the line when before there were stops beyond. Can't see how anyone can applaud that...as from now our government are free to scrap the Supreme Court if they wish. They probably won't, but I wouldn't trust them not to. After all, they "have control" whatever that means.
 

Barn

Established Member
Joined
3 Sep 2008
Messages
1,464
Out of interest, what right do you think you had before to "appeal to Brussels"?
 

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
8,161
Out of interest, what right do you think you had before to "appeal to Brussels"?

Before we became members of the EEC, none (that I know of). We gained, now we lose what we gained and we're back to square one.

Of course the European Courts didn't always come down on the side of the public but here are 12 examples http://www.personneltoday.com/hr/brexit-employment-law-european-cases-shaped-uk-law/ )link to EU referendum: 12 European cases that have shaped UK employment law)

I wonder how may disability/sexual discrimination laws, workers rights legistaltion etc. wouldn't have come in had we not been in the EU. Of course we'll never know, and I doubt the UK government will now throw any away. But if future legislation is made in the EU, will the UK follow suit? Of course that's now not a given.
 
Last edited:

pemma

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
31,474
Location
Knutsford
Just look what the 'nasty' EU want to do - protect us from nasty governments like ones led by Theresa May

BBC News said:
A European Parliament committee wants end-to-end encryption to be enforced on all forms of digital communication to protect European Union (EU) citizens.
The draft legislation seeks to protect sensitive personal data from hacking and government surveillance.
EU citizens are entitled to personal privacy and this extends to online communications, the committee argues.
A ban on "backdoors" into encrypted messaging apps like WhatsApp and Telegram is also being considered.
Encryption involves digitally scrambling a communication to protect its contents, and then using a digital key to reassemble the data.
End-to-end encryption means the company providing the service does not have access to the key, meaning it cannot "listen in" to what is being shared - giving the sender and recipient added confidence in the privacy of their conversation.
"The principle of confidentiality should apply to current and future means of communication, including calls, internet access, instant messaging applications, email, internet phone calls and personal messaging provided through social media," said a draft proposal from the European Parliament's Committee on Civil Liberties, Justice, and Home Affairs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40326544
 

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
8,161
Just returned from a couple of days respite abroad; and just before I left I noticed that the government (what's left of it) had mentioned it's intention to keep the EHIC card. At last, progress for travellers and I hope they will soon announce that we won't be requiring any kind of visa to the EU.

Back to the EHIC - managed to use it whilst abroad. Some idiot who will remain anonymous walked face-first into a plate glass door. Right - there were two ond one was open and the other a smokey colour - but with sunglasses on they both looked open. Bang - the glass (fortunately) didn't shatter or even budge, but the sunglasses caused a bit of a gash in the nose. The local A+E was a short walk away, and they accepted the EHIC card no probs and fixed the nose - with one of those stichy-plasters where stiches aren't required.

And firm enough to survive light swims too!!

So home with a tan and a purple conk - and no need to fill in endless insurance claims and the £50 excess. And Mr. Anonymous won't be wearing sunglasses inside on his hols. Than you EU/EHIC!!
 

pemma

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
31,474
Location
Knutsford
Just returned from a couple of days respite abroad; and just before I left I noticed that the government (what's left of it) had mentioned it's intention to keep the EHIC card.

I wonder if the following will be retained
- EU price cap on using your phone in EU countries.
- Being able to use the 'EU nationals' queue at border control like people from Norway.
- Being able to use ePassport gates designed for EU nationals.
- Not just visa-free entry to EU countries but retaining free entry i.e. not requiring a chargeable ESTA/ETA to be completed in order to gain entry like in North America.
 

pemma

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
31,474
Location
Knutsford
101 MPs voted in favour of Chuka Umunna's amendment saying the UK should stay in the single market. I see no Conservatives backed it - not even Ken Clarke or Anna Soudbry. Unsurprisingly all the Lib Dem and SNP MPs backed it.

Rushanara Ali (Labour - Bethnal Green and Bow)
Mr Adrian Bailey (Labour (Co-op) - West Bromwich West)
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party - Livingston)
Luciana Berger (Labour (Co-op) - Liverpool, Wavertree)
Mhairi Black (Scottish National Party - Paisley and Renfrewshire South)
Ian Blackford (Scottish National Party - Ross, Skye and Lochaber)
Kirsty Blackman (Scottish National Party - Aberdeen North)
Mr Ben Bradshaw (Labour - Exeter)
Tom Brake (Liberal Democrat - Carshalton and Wallington)
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party - Edinburgh North and Leith)
Alan Brown (Scottish National Party - Kilmarnock and Loudoun)
Chris Bryant (Labour - Rhondda)
Ms Karen Buck (Labour - Westminster North)
Sir Vince Cable (Liberal Democrat - Twickenham)
Ruth Cadbury (Labour - Brentford and Isleworth)
Dr Lisa Cameron (Scottish National Party - East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)
Mr Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat - Orkney and Shetland)
Douglas Chapman (Scottish National Party - Dunfermline and West Fife)
Joanna Cherry (Scottish National Party - Edinburgh South West)
Ann Clwyd (Labour - Cynon Valley)
Ann Coffey (Labour - Stockport)
Ronnie Cowan (Scottish National Party - Inverclyde)
Neil Coyle (Labour - Bermondsey and Old Southwark)
Angela Crawley (Scottish National Party - Lanark and Hamilton East)
Stella Creasy (Labour (Co-op) - Walthamstow)
Sir Edward Davey (Liberal Democrat - Kingston and Surbiton)
Martyn Day (Scottish National Party - Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
Emma Dent Coad (Labour - Kensington)
Martin Docherty-Hughes (Scottish National Party - West Dunbartonshire)
Stephen Doughty (Labour (Co-op) - Cardiff South and Penarth)
Maria Eagle (Labour - Garston and Halewood)
Jonathan Edwards (Plaid Cymru - Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)
Mrs Louise Ellman (Labour (Co-op) - Liverpool, Riverside)
Paul Farrelly (Labour - Newcastle-under-Lyme)
Tim Farron (Liberal Democrat - Westmorland and Lonsdale)
Mike Gapes (Labour (Co-op) - Ilford South)
Stephen Gethins (Scottish National Party - North East Fife)
Patricia Gibson (Scottish National Party - North Ayrshire and Arran)
Patrick Grady (Scottish National Party - Glasgow North)
Peter Grant (Scottish National Party - Glenrothes)
Neil Gray (Scottish National Party - Airdrie and Shotts)
Kate Green (Labour - Stretford and Urmston)
John Grogan (Labour - Keighley)
Helen Hayes (Labour - Dulwich and West Norwood)
Drew Hendry (Scottish National Party - Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey)
Lady Hermon (Independent - North Down)
Meg Hillier (Labour (Co-op) - Hackney South and Shoreditch)
Wera Hobhouse (Liberal Democrat - Bath)
Dame Margaret Hodge (Labour - Barking)
Stewart Hosie (Scottish National Party - Dundee East)
Dr Rupa Huq (Labour - Ealing Central and Acton)
Christine Jardine (Liberal Democrat - Edinburgh West)
Darren Jones (Labour - Bristol North West)
Susan Elan Jones (Labour - Clwyd South)
Peter Kyle (Labour - Hove)
Ben Lake (Plaid Cymru - Ceredigion)
Norman Lamb (Liberal Democrat - North Norfolk)
Mr David Lammy (Labour - Tottenham)
Chris Law (Scottish National Party - Dundee West)
Mr Chris Leslie (Labour (Co-op) - Nottingham East)
David Linden (Scottish National Party - Glasgow East)
Stephen Lloyd (Liberal Democrat - Eastbourne)
Caroline Lucas (Green Party - Brighton, Pavilion)
Angus Brendan MacNeil (Scottish National Party - Na h-Eileanan an Iar)
Kerry McCarthy (Labour - Bristol East)
Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Scottish National Party - Glasgow South)
Stuart C. McDonald (Scottish National Party - Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Alison McGovern (Labour - Wirral South)
Catherine McKinnell (Labour - Newcastle upon Tyne North)
John McNally (Scottish National Party - Falkirk)
Carol Monaghan (Scottish National Party - Glasgow North West)
Mrs Madeleine Moon (Labour - Bridgend)
Layla Moran (Liberal Democrat - Oxford West and Abingdon)
Ian Murray (Labour - Edinburgh South)
Gavin Newlands (Scottish National Party - Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
Brendan O’Hara (Scottish National Party - Argyll and Bute)
Albert Owen (Labour - Ynys Môn)
Jess Phillips (Labour - Birmingham, Yardley)
Liz Saville Roberts (Plaid Cymru - Dwyfor Meirionnydd)
Mr Virendra Sharma (Labour - Ealing, Southall)
Mr Barry Sheerman (Labour (Co-op) - Huddersfield)
Tommy Sheppard (Scottish National Party - Edinburgh East)
Mr Gavin Shuker (Labour (Co-op) - Luton South)
Tulip Siddiq (Labour - Hampstead and Kilburn)
Andy Slaughter (Labour - Hammersmith)
Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party - Glasgow South West)
Jo Stevens (Labour - Cardiff Central)
Jamie Stone (Liberal Democrat - Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
Wes Streeting (Labour - Ilford North)
Jo Swinson (Liberal Democrat - East Dunbartonshire)
Alison Thewliss (Scottish National Party - Glasgow Central)
Gareth Thomas (Labour (Co-op) - Harrow West)
Stephen Timms (Labour - East Ham)
Chuka Umunna (Labour - Streatham)
Keith Vaz (Labour - Leicester East)
Catherine West (Labour - Hornsey and Wood Green)
Dr Philippa Whitford (Scottish National Party - Central Ayrshire)
Hywel Williams (Plaid Cymru - Arfon)
Pete Wishart (Scottish National Party - Perth and North Perthshire)
John Woodcock (Labour (Co-op) - Barrow and Furness)
Daniel Zeichner (Labour - Cambridge)


https://www.theguardian.com/politic...b0d8a37c3d65c7#block-59552effe4b0d8a37c3d65c7
 

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
8,161
I wonder if the following will be retained
- EU price cap on using your phone in EU countries.
- Being able to use the 'EU nationals' queue at border control like people from Norway.
- Being able to use ePassport gates designed for EU nationals.
- Not just visa-free entry to EU countries but retaining free entry i.e. not requiring a chargeable ESTA/ETA to be completed in order to gain entry like in North America.

The latter point - a logistical nightmare if they did. Firstly - the daily crossing of the Irish border by many; chargeable? For whom...both?? bet the Irish would be chuffed. Then - never mind airports where you do fill in an API form beforehand - there are daily commuters through the tunnel and the thousands descending on ferries.
There's there's the businessman who arrives at work to be told "Higgins is off today - can you just pop over to lille and sigh a document for me??" and he's no visa. Hmmm.

But financially - how many EU tourists who do just that - pop over to do a day's shopping in London, watch a match etc etc will still come when they can go to Paris or Amsterdam....we would require ESTA payment - form filling - examination and all they need to travel to and EU country is their ID card at best. Total palava they won't be interested in. But we will still find a way of travelling to the Med and the Alps where the sun and the snow is. A total net loss for the treasury.

Anything other than a passport or EU/ID card would be completely barmy and cost us £b's in lost tourism.
 

pemma

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
31,474
Location
Knutsford
You're envisaging it the other way around to what I was thinking. What if the EU wants UK citizens to have to fill out an online form and submit a payment to be able to travel in the EU? And no it doesn't have to be done every time it can be valid for a few years. I completed the Canadian one last year and I can go back up until 2021 without having to complete it again.

Interestingly many countries have introduced tourist taxes and then subsequently seen an increase in foreign tourists.
 

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
8,161
You're envisaging it the other way around to what I was thinking. What if the EU wants UK citizens to have to fill out an online form and submit a payment to be able to travel in the EU? And no it doesn't have to be done every time it can be valid for a few years. I completed the Canadian one last year and I can go back up until 2021 without having to complete it again.

Interestingly many countries have introduced tourist taxes and then subsequently seen an increase in foreign tourists.

Brexit was supposed to "clear us of Brussels red-tape and bureaucracy" not flaming well add to it - and at cost too <(

If it's gonna be like that for travellers - what will it be like for firms importing and exporting goods and staff?? Brexit's pathetic..it really is!!
 

pemma

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
31,474
Location
Knutsford
Being in the EU prevents a lot of red tape when travelling. The prevention of red tape is seen by Brexiters as preventing us having control over the borders of our own country, while having EU set minimum employee rights is seen as EU red tape by Brexiters. They want it both ways!
 
Last edited by a moderator:

EM2

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
7,522
Location
The home of the concrete cow
http://www.politico.eu/article/uk-economy-officially-eus-worst-performer/
LONDON — The U.K. economy grew just 0.2 percent in the first quarter of the year, the Office for National Statistics confirmed Friday.

GDP had initially been estimated at 0.3 percent but was revised down.

According to the data, while business services and construction drove economic growth, consumer-focused industries such as retail and accommodation slowed it down. Meanwhile, household savings have also dropped.

The figures released on Friday confirmed that Britain is currently the worst performing major economy in the world and among the EU28.
 

rf_ioliver

Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
868
Individuals potentially have the right to appeal all the way to the UK Supreme Court, I don't see any reason, or need, for Brussels to get involved at all. Perhaps that's why some people voted for Brexit, to get control of our laws back.

Not sure I follow this...I assume you mean the ECJ which is the ultimate arbiter of European Law. Given that the UK has a say in how EU Law is written (and indeed has for the past 40 odd years actually been involved in this and is therefore responsible for those EU Laws), then the ECJ makes sense. However the ECJ is not a court for criminal law as such.

The UK Supreme Court is the highest court in the UK. A seperate action can be taken via the ECHR (a seperate body from the EU) to which the UK has agreed (through parlimentary sovereignty) to adhere to. Of course the UK is free to remove itself from Human Rights treaties, but that's another issue.

As for getting control our "our laws" back, are there any specific instances in particular, or is it the whole democratic process which it seen that the UK as a problem with?

t.

Ian
 

EM2

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
7,522
Location
The home of the concrete cow
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...u-error-nhs-350-million-lie-bus-a7822386.html

Brexit: Vote Leave chief who created £350m NHS lie on bus admits leaving EU could be 'an error'

One of the masterminds behind the Brexit vote has performed an astonishing U-turn by admitting that leaving the EU may be “an error”.

Dominic Cummings, the Vote Leave campaign director, described the referendum as a “dumb idea” before other ideas had been tried to win back powers from Brussels. He has also warned that Brexit is shaping up to be a “guaranteed debacle”, without big changes in Whitehall to deliver a successful negotiation.

Tim Farron, the Liberal Democrat leader, seized on the comments, saying: “Dominic Cummings has let the cat out of the bag. This is the man who slapped the £350m NHS lie on the side of the bus who is now saying leaving the EU could be a mistake.

“These Brexiteers have sold us a pup and lied to the public. This is why I believe the public should be given a say on the final Brexit deal.”

Mr Cummings is little known to the public, but is widely seen as hugely influential behind the scenes in pulling off last year’s shock referendum Leave vote. A former special adviser to Michael Gove, he coined the phrase “vote leave, take control”, which excited wavering voters into believing Britain could reclaim sovereignty.

And, notoriously, he came with the campaign for an extra £350m to be spent on the NHS every week from diverted EU spending – which also proved crucial, MPs said. Leading Brexiteers including Boris Johnson were photographed alongside the bus – but the pledge was immediately dumped when Theresa May took over in Downing Street.

Mr Cummings’ volte-face came in a late-night Twitter exchange, in which he was asked whether anything could happen to “wish Leave had not won the referendum?”

In reply, he wrote: “Lots! I said before REF was dumb idea, other things shdve been tried 1st. In some possible branches of the future leaving will be an error.”

Last month, Mr Cummings tweeted that MPs who backed Leave must force change on Downing Street and the Department for Exiting the European Union, led by David Davis. “If Leave MPs don't assert themselves to force MANAGEMENT changes on No10/DEXU, Brexit talks = guaranteed debacle as I’ve said for a year,” he wrote.

The comments come amid fresh cabinet infighting over the terms of Brexit, as ministers exploit Ms May’s weakness to argue for different approaches.

The Chancellor Philip Hammond mocked Mr Johnson’s claim that Britain could “have its cake and eat it” in the talks – but was, in turn, slapped down by Mr Davis for arguing for a lengthy transitional period.

The Brexit Secretary’s former chief of staff than criticised the Prime Minister for tying his hands by insisting all influence held by the European Court of Justice must come to an end.

Mr Farron added: “The government, led by the nose by Boris and Gove are a shambles. These Brexiteers have forced us to play a massive stakes game of Russian roulette with millions of jobs at risk.”
 

Barn

Established Member
Joined
3 Sep 2008
Messages
1,464
It's all based on one tweet which is a warning about doing Brexit badly rather than an expression of regret.
 

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
8,161
It's all based on one tweet which is a warning about doing Brexit badly rather than an expression of regret.

To me it comes across as both. This time next year we will be asking "How many Brexiters does it take to change a light bulb?" "All four of them". ;)
 

fowler9

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2013
Messages
8,367
Location
Liverpool
To me it seems they asked a clever chap "How best can we do task X?". He said "Do Y and Z". Then he realised they were actually going to try and do X". Afterwards he pointed out all the stuff that can go wrong. To late.
 

317 forever

Established Member
Joined
21 Aug 2010
Messages
2,577
Location
North West
Immediately after the EU referendum I committed with immediate effect to ensuring that a majority of my UK daytrips and holidays in terms of buses covered were to Remain areas. I have a points-based system allowing for rides entirely in Remain boroughs, entirely within Leave boroughs or cross-boundary rides. This points to a 66% Europhile share of rides in the first year since the Referendum.

I had committed to buses in Ealing (Europhile) and Ruislip (within Leave Hillingdon) alongside my GWR 387 ride later this month. However, I have just received a bombshell in the form of the Underground to Uxbridge closed for engineering. So, although Hayes & Harlington is within Leave Hillingdon, I reckon I shall do just a cross-boundary bus from Hayes & Harlington to Greenford (within Ealing), and time-permitting do some buses in Harrow (Remain borough) instead of Ruislip.
 
Last edited:

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,215
Location
No longer here
Immediately after the EU referendum I committed with immediate effect to ensuring that a majority of my UK daytrips and holidays in terms of buses covered were to Remain areas. I have a points-based system allowing for rides entirely in Remain boroughs, entirely within Leave boroughs or cross-boundary rides. This points to a 66% Europhile share of rides in the first year since the Referendum.

I had committed to buses in Ealing (Europhile) and Ruislip (within Leave Hillingdon) alongside my GWR 387 ride later this month. However, I have just received a bombshell in the form of the Underground to Uxbridge closed for engineering. So, although Hayes & Harlington is within Leave Hillingdon, I reckon I shall do just a cross-boundary bus from Hayes & Harlington to Greenford (within Ealing), and time-permitting do some buses in Harrow (Remain borough) instead of Ruislip.

The question on everyone's lips - why?
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,085
The question on everyone's lips - why?

That's between him/her and his/her psychoanalyst, I'd suggest. Either that, or Channel 5 are desperately looking for another low-budget series loosely connected to transport.:lol:
 

Bornin1980s

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2017
Messages
489
Immediately after the EU referendum I committed with immediate effect to ensuring that a majority of my UK daytrips and holidays in terms of buses covered were to Remain areas. I have a points-based system allowing for rides entirely in Remain boroughs, entirely within Leave boroughs or cross-boundary rides. This points to a 66% Europhile share of rides in the first year since the Referendum.

I had committed to buses in Ealing (Europhile) and Ruislip (within Leave Hillingdon) alongside my GWR 387 ride later this month. However, I have just received a bombshell in the form of the Underground to Uxbridge closed for engineering. So, although Hayes & Harlington is within Leave Hillingdon, I reckon I shall do just a cross-boundary bus from Hayes & Harlington to Greenford (within Ealing), and time-permitting do some buses in Harrow (Remain borough) instead of Ruislip.

You might want to avoid Wright built buses. That company's owner openly backed Brexit.
 

pemma

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
31,474
Location
Knutsford
You might want to avoid Wright built buses. That company's owner openly backed Brexit.

The route I use most often usually has Optare buses but occasionally Wright buses appear. Even if you wait for the next Optare bus the operator still gets the same fare and in the case of the operator in question they acquired a few Wright buses when they took over another operator but most new/cascaded buses they acquire are either Optare or Alexander Dennis. So what would be the point of avoiding the Wright buses?
 

Bornin1980s

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2017
Messages
489
Don't... get... sucked... in... Must...try...harder.... Can't... resist...

What is the point of only travelling in Remain areas?

Actually, that's what I was thinking. Personally, I use both Wright buses and Siemens trains without a problem. I actually live in a leave voting area, although I was so dissatisfied with what both sides were offering that I didn't vote at all!
 

317 forever

Established Member
Joined
21 Aug 2010
Messages
2,577
Location
North West
The question on everyone's lips - why?

It's twofold really. Firstly, it is one way of appreciating part of Britain still being pro-European. Secondly, in sympathy with people who will have less ease of travel once Brexit occurs, I am sacrificing some flexibility of travel myself by cutting back on travels within Leave-voting areas.

Last Saturday I postponed my ride on a GWR 387 to Hayes & Harlington so that I could ride one for the first time on the newly-electrified section to Maidenhead or Reading early next year. Coupled with the Underground through Ruislip to Uxbridge being closed, I focussed mainly on the Ealing & Harrow areas. I only ventured into the Borough of Hillingdon on the Underground from central London to Northwood Hills and then a bus (282) into the Borough of Ealing.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top