EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[najaB]

It’s possible to be a proud Brit without being a racist or a xenophobic. Nationalism tends to be associated with jack boots and swastikas but it doesn’t have to mean that....

There's a difference though between patriotism and Nationalism.

 

[Bromley boy]

There's a difference though between patriotism and Nationalism.

Yep, poor choice of words on my part.

Although I do think patriotism tends to be conflated with nationalism and racism in this country, which is a pity.

The U.K. isn’t such a bad old place.

 

[fowler9]

Though it is now enshrined into EU laws that countries joining have to join the Euro, the idea of a single currency could be a separate issue altogether. The idea of a single currency isn't inherently bad though, it'd be much easier for cross-border travelers and tourists not having to get their money exchanged, and it can help in certain cross-border projects.

The problem is, it doesn't work when every country has different interest rates, and has different economic strength and stability. For example, several countries could be doing very well economically, but all it takes is just one to mess things up for everyone. If Australia used the Pound Sterling, then it would be affected by the pound's drop after the result despite having nothing to do with it.

Furthermore, every country taking part loses it's power to control it's own economy, and this wouldn't be an issue if it shared economic interests with other countries. Fact is though it doesn't. If Spain would need to increase or decrease interest rates, then it has no power to do so, and even if the rates were reduced for them, it would have an impact on Germany who aren't struggling anywhere near as much.

So ultimately, I would say that a single currency is a separate, though related in this case, issue to the European Union. Even a lot who voted Remain didn't support the idea of adopting the Euro. Imagine if we voted Leave while under that? The drop would drastically affect every other country, and we couldn't increase or decrease our interest rates to try and ease things up anymore.

Yeah mate, despite being a remainer I was always against the single currency. In fact I miss visiting Italy and becoming a millionaire using Lira. Ha ha. It has caused a great deal of damage to some Southern European countries.

 

[fowler9]

Yep, poor choice of words on my part.

Although I do think patriotism tends to be conflated with nationalism and racism in this country, which is a pity.

The U.K. isn’t such a bad old place.

Indeed. I am proud of my country, I'd say I'm a patriot, it would be hard to do my job working with the armed forces otherwise. I am certainly not a nationalist though.

 

[najaB]

Indeed. I am proud of my country, I'd say I'm a patriot... I am certainly not a nationalist though.

Same goes for me. I'm proud of the UK though recognising that we aren't a Utopia. That doesn't change my belief that we would be better in the EU than outside of it (see the tent/spitting analogy already posted).

 

[Tetchytyke]

A reduction in nationalism a good thing? This is where you and I fundamentally disagree - you may want to be part of an undemocratic, self serving bureaucratic superstate set up to favour France and Germany but I value the national identity of living in a country that has been formed over millennia.

Brussels is no less democratic than Westminster. Which is an undemocratic self-serving superstate set up to favour a tiny ruling elite who are fortunate enough to have great-great-grandfathers who went to the right school and picked the right side in the 1700s.

But seriously, Westminster is not even remotely democratic. I don't get to vote for the Government, the PM, or members of the upper house.

The idea of "claiming back democracy" is the stupidest of all the justifications for Brexit. As you'd have thought UKIP voters would have realised after the 2015 General Election.

This statement actually encapsulates the fundamental issue I have with many remain voters I have spoken to - they’re so bitter about the result of the referendum that they no longer even like the country they live in and seem to actively relish the UK’s downfall!

Ah yes, anyone who points out we're sailing up the creek and the only paddle we have is Boris Johnson is "relishing the UK's downfall".

But of course.

Trashing the most valuable trading relationship we have isn't quite the economic tactic I'd choose. Nor is it one that any resepected economist would. But if you'd rather side with a sleazeball insurance salesman, whose wife has an "interesting" political past, and a neo-Nazi stockbroker then fill your boots.

 

[fowler9]

Same goes for me. I'm proud of the UK though recognising that we aren't a Utopia. That doesn't change my belief that we would be better in the EU than outside of it (see the tent/spitting analogy already posted).

Ditto. I would certainly rather remain. But hey ho. I'll be interested to see what happens. If it all goes wrong I will be able to give my cousin no end of sh*t on Facebook which gives me some small level of comfort about leaving. Ha ha.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Although I do think patriotism tends to be conflated with nationalism and racism in this country, which is a pity.

It is deliberately conflated by those who have an interest in presenting their xenophobia and racism as "patriotism". It is deliberately conflated by the far right: they're not racist scum for booing black players in the England team, for instance, they're just "patriotic".

I used the word nationalism very deliberately.

There's a lot right in taking pride in where you live and where you're from. But the issues arise when that becomes a belief in your nation's superiority, a belief in sending the buggers back. Two World Wars show what happens when countries believe in their own innate superiority and attempt to demonstrate this through force.

As an aside, it's interesting how many of those who believe in "English" self-determination also don't want that for Scotland and Ireland...

 

[Bromley boy]

Brussels is no less democratic than Westminster. Which is an undemocratic self-serving superstate set up to favour a tiny ruling elite who are fortunate enough to have great-great-grandfathers who went to the right school and picked the right side in the 1700s.

But seriously, Westminster is not even remotely democratic. I don't get to vote for the Government, the PM, or members of the upper house.

The idea of "claiming back democracy" is the stupidest of all the justifications for Brexit. As you'd have thought UKIP voters would have realised after the 2015 General Election.



Ah yes, anyone who points out we're sailing up the creek and the only paddle we have is Boris Johnson is "relishing the UK's downfall".

But of course.

Trashing the most valuable trading relationship we have isn't quite the economic tactic I'd choose. Nor is it one that any resepected economist would. But if you'd rather side with a sleazeball insurance salesman, whose wife has an "interesting" political past, and a neo-Nazi stockbroker then fill your boots.

I will reply properly later, but from the above rant it’s immediately apparent that you don’t understand how the EU works, or how UK parliamentary democracy works...

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes. That's what we vote Parliaments in for.

They must be very representative indeed for the population to reject successive parliaments’ entire direction of travel for 40 years in a single referendum.

Perhaps parliaments don’t do a very good job of representing people.

 

[AlterEgo]

But seriously, Westminster is not even remotely democratic. I don't get to vote for the Government, the PM, or members of the upper house.

The idea of "claiming back democracy" is the stupidest of all the justifications for Brexit. As you'd have thought UKIP voters would have realised after the 2015 General Election.

How true.

 

[Moonshot]

They must be very representative indeed for the population to reject successive parliaments’ entire direction of travel for 40 years in a single referendum.

Perhaps parliaments don’t do a very good job of representing people.

Of course that direction of travel would still be the same had we not had a referendum.....

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

In fact I miss visiting Italy and becoming a millionaire using Lira. Ha ha.

Perhaps someone needs to retire in Italy then

 

[Moonshot]

Perhaps someone needs to retire in Italy then

Which may not be possible now given the result of Brexit

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

It is deliberately conflated by those who have an interest in presenting their xenophobia and racism as "patriotism". It is deliberately conflated by the far right: they're not racist scum for booing black players in the England team, for instance, they're just "patriotic".

I used the word nationalism very deliberately.

There's a lot right in taking pride in where you live and where you're from. But the issues arise when that becomes a belief in your nation's superiority, a belief in sending the buggers back. Two World Wars show what happens when countries believe in their own innate superiority and attempt to demonstrate this through force.

As an aside, it's interesting how many of those who believe in "English" self-determination also don't want that for Scotland and Ireland...

I would agree with you there. Nationalism in itself isn't inherently a bad thing, especially civic/liberal nationalism which is supposed to be compatible with values of tolerance, freedom and equality. But often times the nationalist parties become safe havens for racists and xenophobes, and as long as they can proclaim nationalism and patriotism they are safe. Often times words such as 'traitor' or 'Britain-hating scum' would be used as a counterargument so they can feel validated in their beliefs. If someone is genuinely not racist or xenophobic, then they shouldn't have a problem engaging. One could reasonably argue that some cultures are better than others, but aside from that I can't think of much else. I would be open to some enlightenment though from anyone who might have other arguments.

 

[fowler9]

Got a mate living in Rome at the mo teaching English who voted Brexit. He has had some stick. Ha ha.

 

[Senex]

Brussels is no less democratic than Westminster. Which is an undemocratic self-serving superstate set up to favour a tiny ruling elite who are fortunate enough to have great-great-grandfathers who went to the right school and picked the right side in the 1700s.

But seriously, Westminster is not even remotely democratic. I don't get to vote for the Government, the PM, or members of the upper house.

The idea of "claiming back democracy" is the stupidest of all the justifications for Brexit. As you'd have thought UKIP voters would have realised after the 2015 General Election.

Thank you for putting it so clearly. The "UK" is indeed a superstate, made up of three distinct nations on its principal island (and that's before we even start to look at the claims of Cornwall and other areas within England to older identities), and it was indeed very much just the creation of a ruling class—starting with a rather poor choice for successor by Elizabeth.

As for Westminster, the FPTP lower house is undemocratic in that the people in a large number of constituencies never actually get a real voice in who is to represent them and in many others the "representative" is supported by only a minority of the voters. The less said about the joke of an upper house the better. And we are seeing the worst of Westminster at the moment. "No" certainly won the referendum, by a small majority of those voted but supported by only just over a third of those entitled to vote. One might have thought some attempt to rebuild national unity in the face of such a massive change as leaving the EU would have been no bad thing, but as British parliaments understand only black and white and winner takes all, we are seeing a weak government attempt to drive through a hard Brexit with not even a nod towards the views of the losing side. The seeds for long-lasting bitterness and even hate are being sown.

As for "claiming back democracy", as far as I am concerned my MEP has a more genuine democratic mandate than my MP, however imperfect it may still be.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Which may not be possible now given the result of Brexit

The ending of free movement won't necessarily mean you won't be able to move to another country, after all people managed to do so beforehand. Will it be harder? Maybe, but some people won't have a problem getting a VISA. A good way around it would be to go to an EU country where it is easy to get a VISA, and because said country will have free movement rules still in place, you may still be entitled to live and work in other countries taking part in the four freedoms.

 

[fowler9]

The ending of free movement won't necessarily mean you won't be able to move to another country, after all people managed to do so beforehand. Will it be harder? Maybe, but some people won't have a problem getting a VISA. A good way around it would be to go to an EU country where it is easy to get a VISA, and because said country will have free movement rules still in place, you may still be entitled to live and work in other countries taking part in the four freedoms.

You aren't entitled to another countries freedom of movement rules just because they let you get a working visa there, you would have to become a citizen of that country. At least in the EU. I think it is the same globally. I couldn't get a work visa for New Zealand and go and work in Australia on it I don't think.

 

[Moonshot]

The ending of free movement won't necessarily mean you won't be able to move to another country, after all people managed to do so beforehand. Will it be harder? Maybe, but some people won't have a problem getting a VISA. A good way around it would be to go to an EU country where it is easy to get a VISA, and because said country will have free movement rules still in place, you may still be entitled to live and work in other countries taking part in the four freedoms.

So anyone from the UK wishing to retire to Spain in a post brexit democracy may well have to face the challenge of getting a Visa ....which in effect puts a barrier in the way of my free movement. Isnt this already a concern to ex pat Brits living in Spain?

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Thank you for putting it so clearly. The "UK" is indeed a superstate, made up of three distinct nations on its principal island (and that's before we even start to look at the claims of Cornwall and other areas within England to older identities), and it was indeed very much just the creation of a ruling class—starting with a rather poor choice for successor by Elizabeth.

As for Westminster, the FPTP lower house is undemocratic in that the people in a large number of constituencies never actually get a real voice in who is to represent them and in many others the "representative" is supported by only a minority of the voters. The less said about the joke of an upper house the better. And we are seeing the worst of Westminster at the moment. "No" certainly won the referendum, by a small majority of those voted but supported by only just over a third of those entitled to vote. One might have thought some attempt to rebuild national unity in the face of such a massive change as leaving the EU would have been no bad thing, but as British parliaments understand only black and white and winner takes all, we are seeing a weak government attempt to drive through a hard Brexit with not even a nod towards the views of the losing side. The seeds for long-lasting bitterness and even hate are being sown.

As for "claiming back democracy", as far as I am concerned my MEP has a more genuine democratic mandate than my MP, however imperfect it may still be.

For the first point, you may have made an elementary mistake. The UK consists of four non-sovereign nations (you forgot Northern Ireland) under a treaty of union.

Westminster is certainly flawed with it's First Past the Post system. It simply wasn't designed for more than two-parties, but a referendum was actually passed in 2011. It won with FPTP being retained, but the Alternative Vote was passed off as a 'third place is the winner' system which wasn't true at all. The campaign against AV was filled with lies and deception, depicting AV as something it wasn't. AV isn't that much better than FPTP, but it is better, and some systems might work better. The Upper House... well, okay, you didn't want to talk about that so fair enough. If by 'No' you meant the leave vote, then it doesn't matter if only the third of those entitled to vote actually voted for it, what matters are the votes that were cast, which were 52% in favour of leave. Nevertheless, Parliament does only seem to see in black and white.

The claiming back democracy argument might sound flawed, but I think I might be able to make some sense out of it. We elect MPs who have the power to propose and vote on legislation, and while the House of Lords may be able to send back the bill to Parliament, they can't propose bills themselves and can only send it back so much. It's not perfect as has been established before of course. But the ones who propose legislation in the EU are the commissioners if my knowledge doesn't deceive me, and to have unelected officials propose laws we can only vote on and not make ourselves, some might see that as undemocratic. I did mention earlier that this is the reason I don't understand why people don't see MEPs as important, because they're the ones who vote on these laws, and if people are so apathetic in these elections it can be assumed they're basically indifferent to the result. We might be outvoted, but that's just part and parcel.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I will reply properly later, but from the above rant it’s immediately apparent that you don’t understand how the EU works, or how UK parliamentary democracy works...

That's your stock answer whenever someone disagrees with you, isn't it.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

You aren't entitled to another countries freedom of movement rules just because they let you get a working visa there, you would have to become a citizen of that country. At least in the EU. I think it is the same globally. I couldn't get a work visa for New Zealand and go and work in Australia on it I don't think.

I see. I thought I may have gone wrong somewhere. Citizenship can be tricky, but if you're lucky you could still get a VISA to the country you want. Sadly there's not a guarantee.

So anyone from the UK wishing to retire to Spain in a post brexit democracy may well have to face the challenge of getting a Visa ....which in effect puts a barrier in the way of my free movement. Isnt this already a concern to ex pat Brits living in Spain?

I'll be honest, I don't understand why current expats are an issue. If they moved there under laws that allowed them to, it shouldn't be much of a problem. In my opinion, dual citizenship or work entitlements should be granted to them even when free movement ends. You wouldn't arrest someone for doing something that wasn't illegal when they did it, even if it may be now.

 

[Moonshot]

I see. I thought I may have gone wrong somewhere. Citizenship can be tricky, but if you're lucky you could still get a VISA to the country you want. Sadly there's not a guarantee.



I'll be honest, I don't understand why current expats are an issue. If they moved there under laws that allowed them to, it shouldn't be much of a problem. In my opinion, dual citizenship or work entitlements should be granted to them even when free movement ends. You wouldn't arrest someone for doing something that wasn't illegal when they did it, even if it may be now.

Except that in a post referendum reality , it really is an issue. And forms part ( and a significant part at that ) of the current negotiations between the EU and the UK.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Except that in a post referendum reality , it really is an issue. And forms part ( and a significant part at that ) of the current negotiations between the EU and the UK.

I think that's a failure on the half of both sides. Neither one of them wants to be the first to concede on the guarantee, and unfortunately they're seen as bargaining chips instead of actual people who's established and settled livelihoods are at stake.

 

[Moonshot]

I think that's a failure on the half of both side. Neither one of them wants to be the first to concede on the guarantee, and unfortunately they're seen as bargaining chips instead of actual people who's established and settled livelihood are at stake.

The very same bargaining chips which has had the effect of making EU nurses working for the NHS feel very unwelcome......

 

[Tetchytyke]

The claiming back democracy argument might sound flawed, but I think I might be able to make some sense out of it. We elect MPs who have the power to propose and vote on legislation, and while the House of Lords may be able to send back the bill to Parliament, they can't propose bills themselves and can only send it back so much. It's not perfect as has established of course. But the ones who propose legislation in the EU are the commissioners if my knowledge doesn't deceive me, and to have unelected officials propose laws we can only vote on and not make ourselves, some might see that as undemocratic.

Backbencher MPs have no effective ability to propose legislation, instead legislation is proposed by Government ministers. Nobody gets to vote for a Government minister, they are chosen by the Prime Minister. Who, again, is not elected by anyone.

EU Commissioners are not elected, they are selected by the leaders of national Governments. They are not "unelected officials", they are selected by the national Governments. However they can all, collectively, be deselected by the EU Parliament.

This was and is a deliberate policy intention, so that the EU remains controlled by national Governments. If it wasn't, if it was all run by pan-European elections, then it would be a lot closer to being a "superstate".

Those arguing against the EU attempt to have their cake and eat it. They don't want a "superstate" and they don't want an EU commission not controlled by national Governments. But then they claim that this specific issue is a "democratic deficit" that means the EU is unfit for purpose.

You can't have it both ways, guys.

 

[fowler9]

I think that's a failure on the half of both sides. Neither one of them wants to be the first to concede on the guarantee, and unfortunately they're seen as bargaining chips instead of actual people who's established and settled livelihoods are at stake.

If I may disagree it is not a failure on both sides, we voted to leave, the EU don't really have to do anything other than recoup any costs they feel they are owed and perhaps make sure we don't break any international law on anyone we decide to kick out.

 

[fowler9]

I'll be honest, I don't understand why current expats are an issue. If they moved there under laws that allowed them to, it shouldn't be much of a problem. In my opinion, dual citizenship or work entitlements should be granted to them even when free movement ends. You wouldn't arrest someone for doing something that wasn't illegal when they did it, even if it may be now.

Current expats are a massive issue, especially if they aren't, for example, citizens of Spain. Why would Spain take on a load of British Pensioners? I say this as someone who knows a couple, one of whom has never bothered to learn the language, they left England because they were fed up of immigrants who didn't bother to even learn the language. Now that is Irony, someone call Alanis Morissette so she can learn the meaning of the word.

 

[EM2]

I'll revisit this later because I'm on my phone right now, but suffice to say that I was living in Ireland at the time and know exactly how the Treaty was ratified.

Cards on the table, I've got my dates mixed up and it was the Nice Treaty referendum that I was in Ireland for.

So, on that basis, presumably you believe the 1975 referendum shouldn’t have been held?
In that case, I’m sure you’ll agree, it’s lucky we’ve been able to reverse it .

I was too young to vote then, but if a Government has the democratic mandate from the electorate to govern, there should be no need for referenda on any subject.
As for reversing it, again that should have been a decision for the Government.
As far I know, the 1975 Government were in favour of joining, so they should have joined. The 2016 Government were in favour of staying, so they should have stayed.
Ireland has a written constitution, and part of that is that any amendment to it has to go to referendum.