EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Moonshot]

Current expats are a massive issue, especially if they aren't, for example, citizens of Spain. Why would Spain take on a load of British Pensioners? I say this as someone who knows a couple, one of whom has never bothered to learn the language, they left England because they were fed up of immigrants who didn't bother to even learn the language.

Expats in Spain are a good source of income for the local economy....clearly they have pension monies to spend. Some will even set up small businesses and take on locals ....unemployment is far higher in Spain than it is here

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Backbencher MPs have no effective ability to propose legislation, instead legislation is proposed by Government ministers. Nobody gets to vote for a Government minister, they are chosen by the Prime Minister. Who, again, is not elected by anyone.

EU Commissioners are not elected, they are selected by the leaders of national Governments. They are not "unelected officials", they are selected by the national Governments. However they can all, collectively, be deselected by the EU Parliament.

This was and is a deliberate policy intention, so that the EU remains controlled by national Governments. If it wasn't, if it was all run by pan-European elections, then it would be a lot closer to being a "superstate".

Those arguing against the EU attempt to have their cake and eat it. They don't want a "superstate" and they don't want an EU commission not controlled by national Governments. But then they claim that this specific issue is a "democratic deficit" that means the EU is unfit for purpose.

You can't have it both ways, guys.

Well, at least I tried to make sense of the argument. Can't blame a guy for trying.

If I may disagree it is not a failure on both sides, we voted to leave, the EU don't really have to do anything other than recoup any costs they feel they are owed and perhaps make sure we don't break any international law on anyone we decide to kick out.

Current expats are a massive issue, especially if they aren't, for example, citizens of Spain. Why would Spain take on a load of British Pensioners? I say this as someone who knows a couple, one of whom has never bothered to learn the language, they left England because they were fed up of immigrants who didn't bother to even learn the language.

Sounds pretty hypocritical that someone doesn't bother to learn the language when moving to a country because they're fed up with immigrants moving in and not learning the language. I don't particularly appreciate double standards, I think you should learn the language of the country you're going to move to, or at least expect a hard time living there if you don't, and know and understand it is nobody else's problem.

The very same bargaining chips which has had the effect of making EU nurses working for the NHS feel very unwelcome......

It really has brought out the worst in people this whole referendum. This is very much the legacy of David Cameron, and I'd be surprised if he wasn't remembered as the man who lost a massive gamble just for the sake of his own party's power.

 

[fowler9]

Expats in Spain are a good source of income for the local economy....clearly they have pension monies to spend. Some will even set up small businesses and take on locals ....unemployment is far higher in Spain than it is here

A couple of pensioners in a British enclave near Malaga won't.

 

[Moonshot]

Well, at least I tried to make sense of the argument. Can't blame a guy for trying.





Sounds pretty hypocritical that someone doesn't bother to learn the language when moving to a country because they're fed up with immigrants moving in and not learning the language. I don't particularly appreciate double standards, I think you should learn the language of the country you're going to move to, or at least expect a hard time living there if you don't, and know and understand it is nobody else's problem.



It really has brought out the worst in people this whole referendum. This is very much the legacy of David Cameron, and I'd be surprised if he wasn't remembered as the man who lost a massive gamble just for the sake of his own party's power.

No No No...( A Thatcher Quote from PMQs ).......Tories have been split on the EU idea for many years. The referendum simply brought that to a head.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

No No No...( A Thatcher Quote from PMQs ).......Tories have been split on the EU idea for many years. The referendum simply brought that to a head.

Of course, but Cameron was under threat from UKIP taking some of their seats, so as well as keeping his party quiet he also wanted to cling onto power. By the way, I like your inclusion of a Thatcher quote

 

[Moonshot]

Of course, but Cameron was under threat from UKIP taking some of their seats, so as well as keeping his party quiet he also wanted to cling onto power. By the way, I like your inclusion of a Thatcher quote

Well if this had happened under Thatchers government, the Channel Tunnel rail link would never have been built....and can you imagine todays rail enthusiasts being happy with that

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Well if this had happened under Thatchers government, the Channel Tunnel rail link would never have been built....and can you imagine todays rail enthusiasts being happy with that

That reminds me of the good old meme with the title 'Channel Tunnel on the morning of Brexit' where it was that scene from Thomas the Tank Engine where Henry got shut up with bricks in his tunnel

 

[Moonshot]

That reminds me of the good old meme with the title 'Channel Tunnel on the morning of Brexit' where it was that scene from Thomas the Tank Engine where Henry got shut up with bricks in his tunnel

Indeed ......and clearly it wont shut.....and clearly passports will still be checked like they are today. the idea of us not having any border controls for the last 40 years is simply a myth. We have never signed up for that as members of the EU.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Indeed ......and clearly it wont shut.....and clearly passports will still be checked like they are today. the idea of us not having any border controls for the last 40 years is simply a myth. We have never signed up for that as members of the EU.

It's not that we have no control over the borders, it's the fact we aren't allowed to turn anybody down with an EU passport because of the free movement laws. The only reason there was passport control was because we never joined the Schengen Area.

 

[fowler9]

It's not that we have no control over the borders, it's the fact we aren't allowed to turn anybody down with an EU passport because of the free movement laws. The only reason there was passport control was because we never joined the Schengen Area.

We could have kicked people out after 3 months if they hadn't found work. We didn't. That was our choice, not the EU's.

Edit, my mistake, EU citizens cannot claim benefits for three months and can be kicked out after 6 if they haven't found work.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

We could have kicked people out after 3 months if they hadn't found work. We didn't. That was our choice, not the EU's.

Theresa May was just as ineffective as Home Secretary as she is Prime Minister. Having vans go around with 'go home' messages isn't exactly an efficient way of kicking people out.

 

[Moonshot]

We could have kicked people out after 3 months if they hadn't found work. We didn't. That was our choice, not the EU's.

Edit, my mistake, EU citizens cannot claim benefits for three months and can be kicked out after 6 if they haven't found work.

What has been forgotten is that Cameron ( and Farage ) proposed an emergency brake of 4 years on benefits just prior to the referendum......that was lost once the vote came in.

 

[fowler9]

What has been forgotten is that Cameron ( and Farage ) proposed an emergency brake of 4 years on benefits just prior to the referendum......that was lost once the vote came in.

Just trying to understand the relevance of that to my point that we were allowed to control our borders and didn't.

 

[EM2]

We could have kicked people out after 3 months if they hadn't found work. We didn't. That was our choice, not the EU's.

Edit, my mistake, EU citizens cannot claim benefits for three months and can be kicked out after 6 if they haven't found work.

We could also have put restrictions in place for the new expansion countries for seven years, but decided not to.

 

[HSTEd]

Let's say you deport a jobless EU citizen after six months...... what stops them simply immediately re-entering and restarting the clock?

 

[fowler9]

Let's say you deport a jobless EU citizen after six months...... what stops them simply immediately re-entering and restarting the clock?

They can't get benefits for 3 months and by the time their claim has gone through they could be getting kicked out.

 

[najaB]

Let's say you deport a jobless EU citizen after six months...... what stops them simply immediately re-entering and restarting the clock?

I'm only 95% sure of this, but if an EU citizen has been deported then they lose the automatic right of abode.

 

[Senex]

For the first point, you may have made an elementary mistake. The UK consists of four non-sovereign nations (you forgot Northern Ireland) under a treaty of union.

I very deliberately wrote "made up of three distinct nations on its principal island" in order to avoid having to say anything about just what the Six Counties / Northern Ireland is in terms of nationality or state.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

I very deliberately wrote "made up of three distinct nations on its principal island" in order to avoid having to say anything about just what the Six Counties / Northern Ireland is in terms of nationality or state.

My apologies. Sometimes you never know who was the one making the mistake.

 

[dosxuk]

It's not that we have no control over the borders, it's the fact we aren't allowed to turn anybody down with an EU passport because of the free movement laws.

On the contrary, we could / can stop anyone we want, with or without reason. The difference is that the right to travel is automatic, so we can't stop random people who have valid reasons to travel, but we can stop anyone we have reason to suspect might not be traveling for the reasons they say.

Why don't we have massive queues and questioning on entry to the country then? Because our government chose to assume everyone has good reasons to travel, instead of finding ways to enforce the border, while keeping people moving (that'd be expensive).

To anyone who says that the EU free movement rules are out of control, I just point them to the non-EU immigration figures, where we don't have to accept anyone, yet the government never fails to miss the targets they set themselves.

 

[dgl]

I see Brexit as the Turkeys voting for Christmas but without being told what's for lunch. They then find out after the vote that they are the lunch, now no longer want Christmas but being told that you voted for it so that's what you get even though it turns out any benefit is massively outweighed by the massive negatives.

To follow on from this there is NOTHING special made by Britain that could not be made somewhere else, the EU and the rest of the world don't need us at all. If it costs too much for them to import whatever they need from Britain they will just make it somewhere where it is cheaper, even if it is somewhere such as China as the jobs loss will be no worry to them as it wasn't being made in their country in the first place and if they could get it made in their own country then it is extra income for them. Foreign companies who do not need a British workforce/British manufacturing will leave
It coud end up with us having to import more from the EU as it won't be worthwhile/cost effective for use to make stuff just for our own use.

The only thing that would change this is of we became the new China, and that would really be turkeys voting for Christmas (would make the rich even richer though or maybe that was the plan all along .

 

[HSTEd]

There are very few items of consumer goods where a market of sixty million is not sufficient to support domestic production.
It is still one of the largest marketplaces in the world in cash terms after all.

[And the effects of free trade in proposing additional prosperity do not mean that it is impossible to support a high standard of living in an autarkic system (or near autarktic), after all the Earth is such a system.]

 

[Dave1987]

I become less and less convinced a trade deal between the UK & the EU will happen. Pro Brexit Tories will not let the Government give the EU what they want. And the likes of Germany and France regard the integrity of the single market as the most important and very significantly German business groups regard the integrity of the single market as extremely important. Davis can bleat on all he likes about the EU being more open to new ideas but they regard the principles of the single market as more important than caving into the British Government demands. Our trading relationship with the EU will be worse outside than it is currently inside it. Pro Brexit MPs need to decide if ordinary people’s jobs and livelihoods are more important than them potentially being overruled by the ECJ.

 

[fowler9]

Pro Brexit MPs need to decide if ordinary people’s jobs and livelihoods are more important than them potentially being overruled by the ECJ.

If it is not blatantly obvious that ordinary peoples jobs and livelihoods are more important than anything, the world over, then we may as well go back and live in caves.

 

[najaB]

There are very few items of consumer goods where a market of sixty million is not sufficient to support domestic production.

Notably absent from that statement: 'economically viable'.

 

[AM9]

Notably absent from that statement: 'economically viable'.

Maybe the HSTEd is thinking of a command economy to supply the UK.

 

[fowler9]

There are very few items of consumer goods where a market of sixty million is not sufficient to support domestic production.
It is still one of the largest marketplaces in the world in cash terms after all.

[And the effects of free trade in proposing additional prosperity do not mean that it is impossible to support a high standard of living in an autarkic system (or near autarktic), after all the Earth is such a system.]

I understand the UK can't even provide food for its own population.

 

[najaB]

I understand the UK can't even provide food for its own population.

That's one thing we definitely can do, though it would require significant changes to the typical person's diet.

 

[fowler9]

That's one thing we definitely can do, though it would require significant changes to the typical person's diet.

We had to import food during world war two when the population was significantly lower and there was rationing.

 

[najaB]

We had to import food during world war two when the population was significantly lower and there was rationing.

That pre-dates the 1940's-60's agricultural revolution though so yields per acre were significantly lower than they are today.