EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Bromley boy]

The UK Parliament has no effective ability to originate legislation. UK legislation is originated by an appointed Cabinet, hand-selected by an appointed PM.

Could you explain how this is in any way, shape or form different to the EU?

This isn't about "failing to criticise the EU". The EU Commission is designed the way it is precisely in order to maintain national governmental control. Brexit people want to keep national governmental control.

The consequence of more direct democracy in Europe is less national control. The consequence of more national control is less direct democracy. Choose one position.

I fear we are now at an impasse and starting to go round in circles. I disagree with this analysis - needless to say - and would respond along my previous post #7631.

AlterEgo’s post #7652 (in response to EM2) also does a good job of explaining why the European Parliament doesn’t deliver the same level democracy as Westminster.

The EU version of a parliament simply isn’t the same as what we have in Westminster. The commons is elected by the British population, something less than 70m, and is composed of Brits acting in the best interests of the country. It can originate legislation although agreed this is tricky for back bench MPs to do due to restrictions on parliamentary time.

Whether it parliament “rubber stamps” the executive largely depends on the majority of the government at the time which itself is a function of the democratic process.

The EU “parliament” rubber stamps legislation originated from the commission which is not directly elected and itself acts in the best interests of the EU. It also has to act for around 700m people and almost 30 countries - if you can’t see the distinction between then we may as well agree to disagree.

I don’t want more or less “democracy in Europe”. The position I want is for the U.K. to leave the EU altogether and stick with local national democracy via Westminster. The British people being governed by laws passed by the British parliament.

I’d certainly be open to reforms to the Westminster system to make it more democratic and accountable, but it is still a better option for governing the UK than the EU’s model.

 

[Bromley boy]

In defence of Bromley boy, he’s a nice guy and I don’t think he’d go so far. From what I know of him of course, maybe there’s something I’m not seeing .

Regardless, such intolerance on that persons behalf. They’re only making it harder on themselves because they’re reinforcing the stereotype that leave voters were intolerant and bigoted scum.

This is why it’s hard being someone who originally voted leave. Not only did I share ground with people like that, but apparently I was being represented by Boris Johnson and Michael Gove in the campaigns, and still am apparently.

I’d rather have been represented by actual sceptics like Dennis Skinner and not that opportunistic blonde-haired oaf who’d stab his friends in the back just to further his own goals. He’s done it twice now even!

(By the way, I wasn’t angry when the high court said that the vote must go to Parliament to trigger article 50. When the key issue for me was the sovereignty of the UK, I can’t complain about a vote since Parliament IS sovereign in this country. It’s what we wanted after all)

Sorry the long rant, and thanks for the response to my original question.

Thanks there’s a compliment in there somewhere UpTilt .

In response to Domh245 - I don’t like that kind of invective from either side. Especially considering my own mother voted to remain and I don’t consider her to be a “traitor”!!! I’m not sure it comes from leave supporters any more than remain supporters.

I would point out that I’ve done my best to put reasonable and balanced arguments forward on this thread and have been compared to a Nazi in return by a remain supporter - now that is every bit as bad as being called a traitor.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Thanks there’s a compliment in there somewhere UpTilt .

Ohh, if that's the emoticon you'll be using whenever there's a hint of compliments, then I think I'll hold back in future...

 

[pemma]

NHS gets £3.75bn over Parliament, Brexit gets £3bn.

https://twitter.com/itvallegra

The Brexit Battle bus should have said "We send money to the EU, we could use that money to leave the EU." Of course it's not just the divorce bill, there's thousands of people being paid to work on Brexit.

 

[radamfi]

there's thousands of people being paid to work on Brexit.

I heard that Brexit are moving into TfL's Windsor House offices on Victoria Street. TfL are currently moving to cheaper offices in Stratford to save money.

 

[tspaul26]

https://twitter.com/itvallegra

The Brexit Battle bus should have said "We send money to the EU, we could use that money to leave the EU." Of course it's not just the divorce bill, there's thousands of people being paid to work on Brexit.

How's this for spin?

"Brexit creates thousands of new jobs helping to support hardworking families."

 

[pemma]

How's this for spin?

"Brexit creates thousands of new jobs helping to support hardworking families."

Have you noticed no-one from the Leave campaign has actually said it? Wonder why? It's because Britain didn't have enough people with the relevant legal experience meaning we've employed from abroad both directly and indirectly. Although, immigrants with legal qualifications are the type Farage likes!

 

[pemma]

Within minutes of the Daily Telegraph branding my self and 14 other Conservative MP's "Brexit Mutineers", I received the first of almost a dozen death threats. I'm all for a free press and rigorous debate, but the falsehoods and hate has to stop and the media has an absolute duty to set a good example.

http://mailchi.mp/6e244de1f7f2/can-you-help-1500745

Well said.

 

[AlterEgo]

Would be interesting to read the “death threats”.

My experience is that this term has lost all meaning, now encompassing throwaway nasty nonsense like “I hope you die of cancer”, which is not a threat at all. Did anyone actually threaten her with death?

 

[najaB]

Would be interesting to read the “death threats”.

There are several instances of 'This Tweet is unavailable' in her feed so I suspect they were somewhat more severe than 'I hope you get a bad cold'.

 

[pemma]

Would be interesting to read the “death threats”.

My experience is that this term has lost all meaning, now encompassing throwaway nasty nonsense like “I hope you die of cancer”, which is not a threat at all. Did anyone actually threaten her with death?

Well we have a corrupt former council leader in Cheshire East who claimed he received death threats after his sister's? physio company got council money. He's also very overweight. The 'death threat' said something like "You don't need a physio, you need to hire a dietician or you won't have long to live you fat Cheshire cat."

However, it is important to remember Jo Cox was killed by a far right extremist and it's understood the far right group he was a member of still meet up illegally.

 

[Bromley boy]

http://mailchi.mp/6e244de1f7f2/can-you-help-1500745

Well said.

Of course pro-Brexit MPs have never received any death threats at all.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...it-death-threats-including-isil-image-of-his/

senior eurosceptic MP has revealed that he has received a series of death threats including an image suggesting that his teenage son had been executed by Isil.

Peter Bone, a Conservative MP who played a leading role in the campaign to leave the EU, revealed that police have had to intervene on three occasions since the vote on June 23.

 

[AlterEgo]

Well we have a corrupt former council leader in Cheshire East who claimed he received death threats after his sister's? physio company got council money. He's also very overweight. The 'death threat' said something like "You don't need a physio, you need to hire a dietician or you won't have long to live you fat Cheshire Cat.”

That’s not a death threat. A death threat is a threat to kill someone and that’s a great deal more immediate and serious than the example above. The example above doesn’t even make it clear the poster hopes the subject will die, much less threaten to kill them.

 

[pemma]

That’s not a death threat. A death threat is a threat to kill someone and that’s a great deal more immediate and serious than the example above. The example above doesn’t even make it clear the poster hopes the subject will die, much less threaten to kill them.

I was giving you an example of something that wasn't! Usually a failure to report to the police indicates it wasn't one.

 

[AlterEgo]

I was giving you an example of something that wasn't!!! Usually a failure to report to the police indicates it wasn't one.

Ah right, my mistake.

 

[pemma]

Of course pro-Brexit MPs have never received any death threats at all.

Are you trying to defend Brexiteers who send death threats? Why not accept it's wrong rather than responding with a childish "They did it first" style response?

 

[Bromley boy]

Are you trying to defend Brexiteers who send death threats? Why not accept it's wrong rather than responding with a childish "They did it first" style response?

Which part of my post could possibly give the impression that I’m “trying to defend Brexiteers who send death threats”? That’s a straw-man, if ever I saw one.

I’m fed up with unreasonable behaviour of the Brexit camp being selectively picked up and (justifiably) criticised while equally appalling behaviour from the remain side is completely ignored. Your previous post picked up on death threats sent to remain MPs. Why didn’t you condemn this behaviour from both sides, equally?

As a case in point - it’s interesting how the “morally superior” and vociferous remainers on this thread fell silent when I was compared to a Nazi upthread.

 

[najaB]

Your previous post picked up on death threats sent to remain MPs.

Well, to be precise the post picked up on threats sent to a MP, and made no mention of either Leave or Remain.

 

[Bromley boy]

Well, to be precise the post picked up on threats sent to a MP, and made no mention of either Leave or Remain.

Well to be even more precise the post quoted Anna Soubry herself saying:

Within minutes of the Daily Telegraph branding my self and 14 other Conservative MP's "Brexit Mutineers", I received the first of almost a dozen death threats.

I interpret that as a reference to death threats sent to remain MPs, in connection with their stance on Brexit (which I wholeheartedly condemn), unless you have a different interpretation?

Why not address my point rather than splitting hairs and attempting to muddy the waters?

Do you think it was acceptable that I was compared to a Nazi upthread for advancing pro Brexit opinions?

 

[najaB]

Do you think it was acceptable that I was compared to a Nazi upthread for advancing pro Brexit opinions?

No. Of course not. And the ridiculousness of the statement is self-evident and didn't require response.

 

[Bromley boy]

No. Of course not. And the ridiculousness of the statement is self-evident and didn't require response.

Well, I must say, I consider that statement to be somewhat disingenuous. I note that you aren’t usually so reticent to criticise statements on this forum you believe to be ridiculous.

I’d suggest, if the boot was on the other foot, and a Brexit supporter had made that comment about a remainer, the response from yourself, and others, would have been very, very different.

As a general observation, I’ve been somewhat saddened by how the Brexit debate seems to have brought out the worst side of humanity in this country, on both sides of the debate.

We increasingly seem to live in a society where rational argument gives way to invective, and many people seem incapable of accepting that, while others may hold a different viewpoint to themselves, that viewpoint is no less valid than their own, by dint of being different.

 

[Howardh]

Moving on from those terrible threats (to either side) - has anyone here got a clue about how to solve Ireland/Irish Border/Irish Sea Border/Wherever it ends up? Clearly no-one up top has a clue, and any suggestion is brought down by the problems it could create, and the only real answer - do nothing and remain in the EU - seems to be a problem only for those who thought leaving the EU would be a good idea.

IF Northern Ireland were to be given special status to remain in the EU - or sort-of remain (CU/SM/FoM), then
(a) Why can't I remain, I'm an UK citizen too??
(b) that would mean customs and immigration crossing our own land/sea to move around our own country. Does that happen anywhere else in the world? I know there are off-shore dependencies of various countries eg. UK/Gibraltar, Spain/Canaries where documentation is required...but not on the scale of an Irish Sea border.
(c) Would it hasten the reunification of Ireland?
(d) I don't think my passport says "England" or "Great Britain" on it, not the cover anyway...please correct if I'm wrong, it says I am a citizen of the whole of the UK. So should we require tourist visas to visit the EU (and treated as "aliens" on entry)? Schengen Zone, and the Northern Irish wouldn't I assume as they would have Freedom of Movement, how would they differentiate?
But point (c) could be the real problem, I don't think the DUP would vote for NI to be a special case as that could hasten reunification, and they hold the government to ransom.

 

[pemma]

Well to be even more precise the post quoted Anna Soubry herself saying:



I interpret that as a reference to death threats sent to remain MPs, in connection with their stance on Brexit (which I wholeheartedly condemn)

I interpret the first sentence of the quote as criticising The Telegraph for coming up the term and then putting it on the front page alongside photos of MPs not 100% behind David Davies. The second sentence is saying everyone needs to stop this kind of behaviour.

There was no need to bring up something which happened 18 months ago and was discussed at the time.

The way I see it is if 48% of MPs oppose Brexit then parliament is representing the public. If then the other 52% don't all agree all the time so what?

 

[pemma]

Moving on from those terrible threats (to either side) - has anyone here got a clue about how to solve Ireland/Irish Border/Irish Sea Border/Wherever it ends up? Clearly no-one up top has a clue, and any suggestion is brought down by the problems it could create, and the only real answer - do nothing and remain in the EU - seems to be a problem only for those who thought leaving the EU would be a good idea.

IF Northern Ireland were to be given special status to remain in the EU - or sort-of remain (CU/SM/FoM), then
(a) Why can't I remain, I'm an UK citizen too??
(b) that would mean customs and immigration crossing our own land/sea to move around our own country. Does that happen anywhere else in the world? I know there are off-shore dependencies of various countries eg. UK/Gibraltar, Spain/Canaries where documentation is required...but not on the scale of an Irish Sea border.
(c) Would it hasten the reunification of Ireland?
(d) I don't think my passport says "England" or "Great Britain" on it...please correct if I'm wrong, it says I am a citizen of the whole of the UK. So should we require tourist visas to visit the EU (and treated as "aliens" on entry)? Schengen Zone, and the Northern Irish wouldn't I assume as they would have Freedom of Movement, how would they differentiate?
But point (c) could be the real problem, I don't think the DUP would vote for NI to be a special case as that could hasten reunification, and they hold the government to ransom.

Passports say "United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland" implying we are all live in the UK but the Northern Irish people are not British.

 

[Howardh]

Passports say "United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland" implying we are all live in the UK but the Northern Irish people are not British.

Right, thanks - does that assume we are united or separate? It could be taken both ways I suppose.

 

[pemma]

Right, thanks - does that assume we are united or separate? It could be taken both ways I suppose.

Checking the small print a holder of a UK passport has right of abode in the UK.

 

[Bromley boy]

Moving on from those terrible threats (to either side) - has anyone here got a clue about how to solve Ireland/Irish Border/Irish Sea Border/Wherever it ends up? Clearly no-one up top has a clue, and any suggestion is brought down by the problems it could create, and the only real answer - do nothing and remain in the EU - seems to be a problem for those who thought leaving the EU would be a good idea.

IF Northern Ireland were to be given special status to remain in the EU - or sort-of remain (CU/SM/FoM), then
(a) Why can't I remain, I'm an UK citizen too??
(b) that would mean customs and immigration crossing our own land/sea to move around our own country. Does that happen anywhere else in the world? I know there are off-shore dependencies of various countries eg. UK/Gibraltar, Spain/Canaries where documentation is required...but not on the scale of an Irish Sea border.
(c) Would it hasten the reunification of Ireland?
(d) I don't think my passport says "England" or "Great Britain" on it...please correct if I'm wrong, it says I am a citizen of the whole of the UK. So should we require tourist visas to visit the EU (and treated as "aliens" on entry)? Schengen Zone, and the Northern Irish wouldn't I assume as they would have Freedom of Movement, how would they differentiate?
But point (c) could be the real problem, I don't think the DUP would vote for NI to be a special case as that could hasten reunification, and they hold the government to ransom.

I'm not saying I have a clue how to solve the issue, but what are your thoughts on making the sea crossing to GB the "hard border". It's already a de facto hard border, at least at the airports, in the sense you need to provide ID etc. and cross the sea to reach the UK mainland.

That seems to make a lot more sense than trying to impose. land border between NI and the Republic of Ireland, which would be a non starter for political and practical reasons.

Those with UK passports could be provided with an accelerated check in route at airports/ports, much as EU v non EU nationals are currently.

I'm not saying that's the ideal solution but it's a possible way forward.

Passports say "United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland" implying we are all live in the UK but the Northern Irish people are not British.

It doesn't imply anything of the sort. "Great Britain" is the name of the largest physical island of the British Isles, which includes Scotland.

The United Kingdom is comprised of both countries on Great Britain (Scotland and England), and the people of Northern Ireland. Therefore " The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" is a mere shorthand.

 

[Bromley boy]

I interpret the first sentence of the quote as criticising The Telegraph for coming up the term and then putting it on the front page alongside photos of MPs not 100% behind David Davies. The second sentence is saying everyone needs to stop this kind of behaviour.

There was no need to bring up something which happened 18 months ago and was discussed at the time.

It is very obvious that the first sentence ties in with the second sentence. I don't necessarily agree with the stance the telegraph has taken but, on the other hand, the referendum has been held and the result determined. As such, MPs should be behind it (I doubt any of them are also rejecting the result of the democratic process that led to their own election as MPs?!)

The way I see it is if 48% of MPs oppose Brexit then parliament is representing the public. If then the other 52% don't all agree all the time so what?

They don't have to agree with it but they should get behind it and not attempt to frustrate the process of leaving the EU. Just as politicians get behind general election results, the result of the Scottish independence referendum (or at least the sensible ones do) etc.

 

[Howardh]

I'm not saying I have a clue how to solve the issue, but what are your thoughts on making the sea crossing to GB the "hard border". It's already a de facto hard border, at least at the airports, in the sense you need to provide ID etc. and cross the sea to reach the UK mainland.

That seems to make a lot more sense than trying to impose. land border between NI and the Republic of Ireland, which would be a non starter for political and practical reasons.

Those with UK passports could be provided with an accelerated check in route at airports/ports, much as EU v non EU nationals are currently.

I'm not saying that's the ideal solution but it's a possible way forward.


It doesn't imply anything of the sort. "Great Britain" is the name of the largest physical island of the British Isles, which includes Scotland.

The United Kingdom is comprised of both countries on Great Britain (Scotland and England), and the people of Northern Ireland. Therefore " The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" is a mere shorthand.

I'm glad you agree that putting a hard border across Ireland is a non-starter. But if the border was across the Irish Sea, one practical implication - currently we have a CTA with Ireland (all parts) so flights to and from are - to all purposes - treated as domestic so although you have to go through security to get on your plane - as in security against bombers etc - there's no immigration or custom queue at the arrival point (as opposed to when you come back of holiday etc - can be an hour!!)
So not only will we be faced with immigartion coming back from the Republic, our own citizens will be faced with immigration here too - how could that be prevented? So that means hour-long queues at Manchester Airport for anyone from Belfast going to the match.
OK, check everyone going on the plane - fair point; but that means lots with different passports, what happens if there's a query on one - do we hold up the whole plane? And who does the checking, the airline and not immigration I assume - and what powers and rights would a glorified steward have? Will they get an immigration officer's pay for doing their job?
So however you do it there will be problems somewhere.
And you are a leave voter? How would you feel if you lived in NIand voted out, yet you remain in against your will (and that of the country) and have to put up with extra bureaucracy, queues and no doubt stress just to pop over to GB just to watch the match - non of which happened prior?
And, of course, it means the end of the CTA, which should be a referendum with us and Ireland in it's own right.
And the thing is...this is coming out as the BEST solution.....crikes!!

 

[tspaul26]

There is no reason why the common travel area cannot continue post-Brexit. Indeed, it predates British and Irish membership of the EEC!

We need impose no border controls in Northern Ireland over and above those that presently exist.