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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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Bromley boy

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If I'm honest with you mate, I'm not even sure I could at first. I'm just so genuinely confused at this point, because the remain side act like there's no mandate to leave the single market even though they felt the need to warn people that we would be because the leave campaign said we would, even though many leave campaigners didn't wish for it themselves, thinking they could get a Norway or Switzerland deal.

I believe Norway/Switzerland are both within the four freedoms agreement - and Switzerland within Shengen? Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

I happen to believe we can survive in the UK with something less subservient than these agreements!
 
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Bromley boy

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That's the issue - what does 'the current arrangements' mean: the external EU border or the internal one?

It simply means a sensible and practicable evolution of what we currently have:
- we have a CTA;
- the UK isn't a member of Shengen;
- NI/Eire share a (de facto) open border;
- getting to the UK mainland from NI requires a plane or ferry trip (de facto hard border).

So let's work together with the EU to negotiate something mutually acceptable.
 

Up_Tilt_390

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I believe Norway/Switzerland are both within the four freedoms agreement - and Switzerland within Shengen? Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Absolutely right. That's why I'm not sure why some leave campaigners even advocated for them.
 

AlterEgo

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Four gains, four losses. Break even.

Depends how you weight those gains and losses.

If you went in to your boss with two demands, one for a £10k pay rise and the other to fix the vending machine in the staff room, and only cane back with the latter, I don’t think that would be “breaking even”.
 

furnessvale

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Depends how you weight those gains and losses.

If you went in to your boss with two demands, one for a £10k pay rise and the other to fix the vending machine in the staff room, and only cane back with the latter, I don’t think that would be “breaking even”.
Did Cameron even remotely approach the "10k pay rise" request?
He went asking for peanuts and came back with a slapped backside and precious little else!
 

Bromley boy

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Yet above you said you want no passport/ID checks when travelling between NI and the UK.

I'm not saying I want or don't want anything in particular* - I want the current arrangements between Eire/NI/the UK to continue.

*other than saying I don't want a hard border between NI and Eire, as a result of Brexit, or anything else!

EDIT: I'd also be happy with the the current UK/EU border arrangements to continue post Brexit!
 

AlterEgo

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It simply means a sensible and practicable evolution of what we currently have:
- we have a CTA;
- the UK isn't a member of Shengen;
- NI/Eire share a (de facto) open border;
- getting to the UK mainland from NI requires a plane or ferry trip (de facto hard border).

So let's work together with the EU to negotiate something mutually acceptable.

But that isn’t going to be easy.

Ireland still defines itself through a long history of having been a vassal state of England for over 750 years. This still holds true today despite many changes to Irish society in the intervening years.

Ireland wishes to be a good neighbour but they do not want to be seen to accede to London’s demands easily. Further to that, the easiest and most obvious solution is to draw the border in the Irish Sea. But that won’t work out well.

Firstly, Sinn Fein started the whole “special status for NI” bandwagon. They were derided for this from both unionists and other Irish political parties. All parties except Sinn Fein hate Sinn Fein. The Fine Gael/Fianna Fail government doesn’t want to be seen to accept this as a good idea. Sinn Fein are in their eyes still extremists and crackpots.

Secondly, NI unionists are unlikely to accept the psychological and practical implications of a border between them and Britain. The DUP has enjoyed temporary relevance in Britain thanks to their deal with May’s government. Unionists are an unusual bunch. Good people, but broadly politically insecure, and the Lundy mindset runs deep. They’ve been historically used by London governments for a very long time and, especially on the DUP side of unionism, can be very introspective and insular. The idea of any kind of border between Northern Ireland and Britain is verboten.

There is a lot of talk about practicalities but very little appreciation of the tangled political issues in Ireland. These are broadly not well understood by most English people. Ireland has poisoned British politics for centuries and continues to do so.

As Brexit steams towards Ireland, I reflect. The latest round of the Troubles is the saddest of all conflicts in Ireland. The civilians who died were blameless and died for no good reason at all. The Republican paramilitaries who died did so for a cause that did not achieve fruition. Loyalist paramilitaries who died only found their descendants and survivors in a province which nobody in the rest of the Kingdom cares about, or understands - and in many cases they are actively disowned. The British soldiers and security forces who died did so to maintain the status quo; a status quo which has been incredibly damaging for Britain over many years and which looks set to cause further difficulties.
 

fowler9

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Agreed.

Let's face it Cameron lacked a pair of balls and, frankly, we'd have been better off with Farage doing that negotiation - I'm no fan of his but at least he previously worked in a commercial role and isn't a career politician.

Unlike who we are left with now ?!
Farage rode the EU gravy train for all he could and you thing he will negotiate in your best interests?
 

DerekC

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But that isn’t going to be easy.

As Brexit steams towards Ireland, I reflect. The latest round of the Troubles is the saddest of all conflicts in Ireland. The civilians who died were blameless and died for no good reason at all. The Republican paramilitaries who died did so for a cause that did not achieve fruition. Loyalist paramilitaries who died only found their descendants and survivors in a province which nobody in the rest of the Kingdom cares about, or understands - and in many cases they are actively disowned. The British soldiers and security forces who died did so to maintain the status quo; a status quo which has been incredibly damaging for Britain over many years and which looks set to cause further difficulties.

In July 2016, about a month after the Referendum, I met in a pub in London with two Irish friends, one from Dublin and one from Belfast. They had never met each other before. By the time I had got to the bar and come back with the first pints, they had discussed the implications of Brexit for Ireland and explained to me exactly what would happen in terms of the total impasse over the principles of the border. When Britain leaves the EU you have to have a border. The Republicans can't agree to one on the island of Ireland. The Unionists can't agree to one in the Irish Sea. Either this government is totally stupid and unbelievably badly informed or it has simply been stringing everyone along for 18 months on the assumption that Ireland can be browbeaten into submission. History would suggest that the latter is a very bad mistake.
 

radamfi

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My best guess is that the UK Government have been pretending to want a hard Brexit to appease the right-wing Tory Brexiteers, but eventually they will say that a hard Brexit is impractical because of the Irish situation.
 

furnessvale

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My best guess is that the UK Government have been pretending to want a hard Brexit to appease the right-wing Tory Brexiteers, but eventually they will say that a hard Brexit is impractical because of the Irish situation.
Given that the government is led by a remainer, for once I agree with you.
 

pemma

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Let's face it Cameron lacked a pair of balls and, frankly, we'd have been better off with Farage doing that negotiation - I'm no fan of his but at least he previously worked in a commercial role and isn't a career politician.

Or Nick Clegg. The fact that he's liked by many in the EU, is multilingual and was more concerned about Britain's best interests in Europe than the unification of the Conservative party or eliminating UKIP could have worked well for us.
 

Howardh

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Given that the government is led by a remainer, for once I agree with you.
Me too. From the moment May stood up (can't remember who was propping her up at the time) and said the unthinkable "No deal is better than a bad deal" I thought - hey up, there's more to that than meets the eye.

Thought then she said that to appease the hard-line cases, so that when the UK is forced to back down due to currently unsurmountable difficulties then she can look the voter in the eye and say "I tried" even if she didn't mean it.

Clue is in the £50bn that's going to the EU instead of the NHS - thought the EU was supposed to "whistle" and they know darned well that the border issue will virtually force us to stay in the single market and customs union, nd already jurisdiction over the airline industry is being passed on to the ECJ.

Think we will finally end up as an EEA member with most industry under the ECJ jurisdiction, have virtual FOM (maybe for those with "qualifications") and the CTA will remain intact. We may even still keep our unlimited tax-paid imports of booze. For that we have paid £50bn and have lost our vote and say in the EU.

And if that's the case and Brexiters think it's too "soft" and we are virtually remaining, then what can they do? The only alternative to the above as there seems to be no middle ground (Border again) is to walk away and go directly to WTO rules and impose that hard border. Can't see any middle ground.
 

AM9

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Me too. From the moment May stood up (can't remember who was propping her up at the time) and said the unthinkable "No deal is better than a bad deal" I thought - hey up, there's more to that than meets the eye.

Thought then she said that to appease the hard-line cases, so that when the UK is forced to back down due to currently unsurmountable difficulties then she can look the voter in the eye and say "I tried" even if she didn't mean it.

Clue is in the £50bn that's going to the EU instead of the NHS - thought the EU was supposed to "whistle" and they know darned well that the border issue will virtually force us to stay in the single market and customs union, nd already jurisdiction over the airline industry is being passed on to the ECJ.

Think we will finally end up as an EEA member with most industry under the ECJ jurisdiction, have virtual FOM (maybe for those with "qualifications") and the CTA will remain intact. We may even still keep our unlimited tax-paid imports of booze. For that we have paid £50bn and have lost our vote and say in the EU.

And if that's the case and Brexiters think it's too "soft" and we are virtually remaining, then what can they do? The only alternative to the above as there seems to be no middle ground (Border again) is to walk away and go directly to WTO rules and impose that hard border. Can't see any middle ground.

If the EEA option outlined above is the end game (which I can also envisage) then it meets some of the many versions of the leave campaign's future for the UK so if the hardline leavers don't like it they can press for another referemdum (as in Farage's unfinished business statement) or use their persuasive arguments to get a hardline leave government at the next GE. When 'the people have spoken', I doubt they would get anywhere near the 50% simple majority in a referendum that they like to call a 'democratic decision'.
 

EM2

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Three tweets from Faisal Islam, political editor of Sky News:
Phillipe Lamberts MEP tells me that the draft text on Ireland agrees “full alignment” within N. Ireland on those parts of single market and customs union that might otherwise lead to hard border...

I said that sounds a lot like NI staying in the Customs Union and Single Market - Lamberts, who has seen the text, agreed but said it was up to UK government how this is described.... Over to the DUP.

Also - if N. Ireland gets this, Nigel Dodds said to me on Thursday that Scotland will ask for the same deal.
 

Howardh

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Three tweets from Faisal Islam, political editor of Sky News:
So bit by bit a once united kingdom is to be separated into areas having different rules and regulations? So much for Brexit freeing the UK from the EU "tyranny" when chunks want exactly that!! But it's the DUP that are the king makers. I don't recall voting for them....
 

pemma

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But it's the DUP that are the king makers. I don't recall voting for them....

Indeed. While it could be argued the Lib Dems got policies through between 2010 and 2015 they did at least have over 50 seats and I genuinely believe if we had the Alternative Vote system that Lib Dems could have been the second choice for the majority of voters. I don't know about others but if I had to rank all the parties from most to least favourite then the DUP would be competing with the likes of UKIP for my least favourite.
 

nlogax

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The DUP doesn't seem to share anyone else's opinion that something has just been formally agreed between the UK government and EU negotiating teams. This is going to get messy..well, messier.
 

fowler9

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The DUP doesn't seem to share anyone else's opinion that something has just been formally agreed between the UK government and EU negotiating teams. This is going to get messy..well, messier.
Hey, it's Democracy so suck it up. The people have spoken (Or some such Brexiteer nonsense). Ha ha.
 

fowler9

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Yep. "You won, get over it"
I believe that the current belief is that everyone acts like grown ups and gives the UK exactly what it wants regarding the Northern Ireland border and stops trying to spoil our Brexit. Ha ha.
 

nlogax

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So what now? The DUP stamp their feet and decide to go against the government in Parliament for all future votes? Or will they be somehow sweet-talked into maintaining their position as the single piece of political plywood holding back yet another general election?
 

fowler9

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So what now? The DUP stamp their feet and decide to go against the government in Parliament for all future votes? Or will they be somehow sweet-talked into maintaining their position as the single piece of political plywood holding back yet another general election?
God knows, it's a mess. If it was down to me I would have another referendum, tell people what they are actually voting for and the implications and that it is advisory because we live in a parliamentary democracy.
 

nlogax

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"This UK Government’s bitter betrayal of 17.4 million people today is a concession too far, for it will lead to endless problems in Scotland and it damages the integrity of the United Kingdom"

..says Farage, a man who banged on for years about having the bloody referendum in the first place, and who'd have endlessly complained at a 52% / 42% result had it gone in the other direction. The man is an idiot and a hypocrite. What a great mix.
 
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EM2

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Analysis from Robert Peston:
When Jeremy Hunt said on Peston On Sunday that his party faced a choice of backing Theresa May or risking seeing the UK stay in the EU, he was addressing his cabinet colleagues Boris Johnson and Michael Gove, as much as estranged Brexiteering ultras on his backbenches.

Here is why (this is a dense and nuanced argument - but please bear with me).

The prime minister has clearly (and probably rightly) made the judgement that Parliament would not vote for a no-trade-deal or hard Brexit. So she has decided to concede to almost every demand made by the EU’s negotiators, so that talks on a transition agreement and trade deal can start before Christmas.

But - and this matters - the concessions she is making are anathema to Johnson and Gove, and a powerful constituency within her party.

As I have been saying for a fortnight, they include a Brexit divorce payment of up to £50bn.

They include a role for the European Court of Justice to adjudicate on the rights of EU migrants living here, on the occasions when the Supreme Court decides UK law is not decisive (these are likely to be rare - though for the Brexiteers it is the principle not the frequency that is hateful).

And they include a promise that there will be close regulatory alignment between Northern Ireland and the Republic so that a hard border between the two need never be re-introduced (customs checks on goods would not be needed if product standards north and south of the border continue to be the same).

Now it is with that very last concession that the PM is taking the political risk of her life, because in that concession she is in effect saying that a trade deal for the whole UK will also be based on a promise of close regulatory alignment between our country and the EU, in perpetuity.

That permanent regulatory convergence between the UK and EU is her preferred route, because without it her government would collapse: Northern Ireland’s DUP MPs, which are sustaining the Tories in office, have made it crystal clear that they will not accept a separate regulatory set-up for Northern Ireland from that prevailing in the UK as a whole.

But here is what I assume will be scaring the PM witless (it scares me, just as a bystander). She is signing up for close regulatory alignment between the UK and EU without ever having secured agreement for that from the Cabinet.

And for Johnson, Gove and most of the other more ardent Brexiteers, in and out of the Cabinet, almost the whole point of leaving the EU was for the UK to “take back control” of setting rules and regulations for British businesses.

To repeat, the PM will today move very close to making a promise that would mean the UK failing to reclaim rule-making sovereignty outside the UK.

And if her own Cabinet and backbench colleagues end up vetoing that offer, even if it is accepted by Juncker at today’s lunch, that would see the UK having no trade deal with the EU and being forced to reintroduce a peace-disrupting hard border with the Republic.

As I said earlier, May thinks MPs and Lords would reject such a no-trade-deal Brexit as too damaging both to the UK’s prosperity and too undermining of the fragile peace in Northern Ireland.

So she is in effect playing the highest stakes game of chicken with Johnson and Gove - and if she loses, her government could fall.

Or to put it another way, Jeremy Hunt might have gone further and warned his colleagues that failure to back May would see no Brexit and the probable advent of a Corbyn administration.
 

Howardh

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God knows, it's a mess. If it was down to me I would have another referendum, tell people what they are actually voting for and the implications and that it is advisory because we live in a parliamentary democracy.
We can't because the Brexiteers who aren't gonna get anything like what they want don't want one as it isn't democratic and against the will of the people.

Funny how things come back to bite!

As for Northern Ireland, the loyalists who voted Brexit (an probably DUP) will find themselves still in the EU against their wishes, cut off from the UK against their wishes and could well end up being dumped in another country against their wishes. And they won the vote....

Funny how winning a vote comes back to bite...
 

fowler9

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David Cameron in holding the referendum to (In some peoples minds) take the country back has managed to split the entire union in quite an impressive way. Well done you selfish git.
 
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