EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[dosxuk]

It means that the output must be the same (e.g. that the car meets the emissions regulation) but how you achieve it doesn't have to be.

Or more, the government being able to say we've left the EU without actually doing so.

It's entirely semantics. The only way not to have a customs border between the EU (Ireland) and the UK (Northern Ireland) is for every regulation, tariff, requirement and rule to be identical. And we've said we don't want a say in the EU rules any more. "Regulatory alignment" is just that - sticking to rules we no longer have any say in.

In a way I feel sorry for Teresa - she's ended up (unelected no less) in a no-win situation, that every opportunity she appears to get to improve things, just turns out to be for the worse. Then I remember her record as home secretary...

 

[pemma]

Your comment simply reinforces my comments about "possible" EU/German prior knowledge.

At the very least, none of this can be spun into some sort of success for the EU.

So you suspect (without any evidence) the EU knew about it and after the USA found issues, cars in Europe got tested to EU standards and failed. Why would the EU try to cover something up when it was them who came up with the standards (which are different to American ones)? :roll: How much longer would the testing have taken if every country had their own emissions standards? Or does in your view each country having different emission standards make it impossible for German cars to be imported to Britain? I'm sure if there was any hint of a cover up by the EU then UKIP and the National Front would have been all over it well before now.

I think the one thing everyone can agree on is the EU isn't 100% perfect. However, you seem to want to blame the EU for anything you can come up with.

 

[furnessvale]

So you suspect (without any evidence) the EU knew about it and after the USA found issues, cars in Europe got tested to EU standards and failed. Why would the EU try to cover something up when it was them who came up with the standards (which are different to American ones)? :roll: How much longer would the testing have taken if every country had their own emissions standards? Or does in your view each country having different emission standards make it impossible for German cars to be imported to Britain? I'm sure if there was any hint of a cover up by the EU then UKIP and the National Front would have been all over it well before now.

I think the one thing everyone can agree on is the EU isn't 100% perfect. However, you seem to want to blame the EU for anything you can come up with.

At least the first sentence I can agree with but we may need to negotiate the percentage!

 

[WelshBluebird]

In a way I feel sorry for Teresa - she's ended up (unelected no less) in a no-win situation, that every opportunity she appears to get to improve things, just turns out to be for the worse. Then I remember her record as home secretary...

Of course, she also surely must have known that she was getting into this exact situation? She knew that she would be stepping into a minefield, so she can't act surprised when she gets blown up! (maybe bad taste considering the news from yesterday about a foiled terror plot, but whatever!).

 

[Barn]

The only way not to have a customs border between the EU (Ireland) and the UK (Northern Ireland) is for every regulation, tariff, requirement and rule to be identical.

I'm not sure that's strictly true. Requirements could be different but mutually acceptable. That's not really the EU's modus operandi, but I can see the UK continuing to accept SM-compliant goods even if we allow domestic production, or imports from elsewhere, to meet different standards. Or the differences could be slight enough to allow for enforcement to pragmatically take place elsewhere than the border. For example, a slight difference in labelling rules which does not affect safety could be a matter for trading standards officers rather than for border officials.

Remember, not all sectors are currently harmonised under the single market. There are still plenty of areas where national rules apply.

 

[Domh245]

It seems to be the case that those ~50 brexit impact assessments that have been the focus of a lot of debate recently don't actually exist.

Question for those of you on record as supporting brexit in this thread - can you honestly say that you support the quite frankly awful handling of brexit by those currently trying to do so?

 

[Howardh]

It seems to be the case that those ~50 brexit impact assessments that have been the focus of a lot of debate recently don't actually exist.

Question for those of you on record as supporting brexit in this thread - can you honestly say that you support the quite frankly awful handling of brexit by those currently trying to do so?

So can we presume there has been no impact assessment made of the effect of Brexit on the British economy? If so, is that either (a) because we will ultimately end up if not still in, but as good as still in the EU so there would be zero impact
or
(b) it's gross incompetence by the Government and they should resign as one; after all what's the point of going through ll this if you literally haven't a clue as to the impact on us all?

 

[WelshBluebird]

I'd say it is gross incompetence by the previous government too if they did not do a assessment before the referendum (of course, we know they didn't because it is pretty clear they didn't plan at all for it).

 

[Moonshot]

So can we presume there has been no impact assessment made of the effect of Brexit on the British economy? If so, is that either (a) because we will ultimately end up if not still in, but as good as still in the EU so there would be zero impact
or
(b) it's gross incompetence by the Government and they should resign as one; after all what's the point of going through ll this if you literally haven't a clue as to the impact on us all?

I would have thought that those who voted Leave would know what the impact would be on the economy.....on the basis that they had researched the subject thoroughly before casting their vote?

 

[AlterEgo]

I would have thought that those who voted Leave would know what the impact would be on the economy.....on the basis that they had researched the subject thoroughly before casting their vote?

Not fair to criticise Leavers for not doing research when many Remainers failed to do likewise.

There’s nobody who can claim with any authority what the impact of Brexit will be.

 

[nlogax]

Which is worse?

1 - The impact statements do exist but it's being denied in Parliament, (maybe) because of the nature of the contents
2 - The impact statements don't exist because DExEU didn't bother to run any industry assessments in the first place in spite of Davis's earlier statements.

I used to be astonished at this level of incompetence from Whitehall. Halcyon days.

 

[Moonshot]

Not fair to criticise Leavers for not doing research when many Remainers failed to do likewise.

There’s nobody who can claim with any authority what the impact of Brexit will be.

Indeed there isnt......but had we voted Remain at the referendum, then this topic would have been long forgotten about amd this thread dead.

 

[nlogax]

Not fair to criticise Leavers for not doing research when many Remainers failed to do likewise.

There’s nobody who can claim with any authority what the impact of Brexit will be.

True, although it could be argued that the status quo (staying in the EU / customs union / single market) is...was a known quantity backed by financial and social historical evidence. Harder to research the alternative unless at very least you take into account all the different models and scenarios of being a part of Europe but outside the EU.

 

[EM2]

There’s nobody who can claim with any authority what the impact of Brexit will be.

They could go and talk to e.g. Norway and ask 'How does your arrangement work? What is involved?' and then done the same for a country outside the EU (maybe Israel or Taiwan) that sells into the EU, and then for a country that trades under WTO, and then at least they'd have SOME idea.

 

[DarloRich]

BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42249854

The government has not carried out any impact assessments of leaving the EU on the UK economy, Brexit Secretary David Davis has told MPs.
Mr Davis said the usefulness of such assessments would be "near zero" because of the scale of change Brexit is likely to cause.
He said the government had produced a "sectoral analysis" of different industries but not a "forecast" of what would happen when the UK leaves the EU.

and

When Mr Benn suggested this was "strange", the minister said formal assessments were not needed to know that "regulatory hurdles" would have an impact, describing Brexit as a "paradigm change" of similar impact to the financial crash, which could not be predicted.

and

Third, Mr Davis probably didn't help his own reputation by telling the committee he had been handed two chapters of the 850 pages of analysis but hadn't read them. At times Mr Davis even chided the committee over the time they were taking.

and

Third, Mr Davis probably didn't help his own reputation by telling the committee he had been handed two chapters of the 850 pages of analysis but hadn't read them. At times Mr Davis even chided the committee over the time they were taking.

sigh

 

[EM2]

Mr Davis said the usefulness of such assessments would be "near zero" because of the scale of change Brexit is likely to cause.

'OK everyone, this Brexit thing is going to cause massive changes in the country, but because they're so massive, it's not worth trying to work out what they will be'.

 

[DarloRich]

'OK everyone, this Brexit thing is going to cause massive changes in the country, but because they're so massive, it's not worth trying to work out what they will be'.

I get that the government wouldn't want to release such information ( if it existed) as would will be used as a stick to beat people with but to undertake NO analysis of the impact of such an event seems scandalously incompetent.

How, for instance, will the government plan a response? Making it up on the spot?

Don't worry though - we have our finest mind working on this big issue: David Davis MP. ffs.

 

[EM2]

I get that the government wouldn't want to release such information ( if it existed) as would will be used as a stick to beat people with but to undertake NO analysis of the impact of such an event seems scandalously incompetent.

I refer m'learned colleagues to a posting I made eight months ago in this very thread:

 

[EM2]

From Patrick Wintour, diplomatic editor of The Guardian, on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/patrickwintour/status/938422656315150336

Chancellor Philip Hammond: The Cabinet has not yet had a full discussion of what should be the Government's preferred "end state position" for the UK after Brexit. It's official. HMG has no agreed destination on Brexit. 18 months on.

 

[DarloRich]

I refer m'learned colleagues to a posting I made eight months ago in this very thread:

That is unfair. He hasn't done naff all. He has had few chats with those forerin chaps, told them they weren't getting any cash, then agreed to give them loads of cash, he has had a few cups of tea and some biscuits and done half a crossword and a word search and tried to read the paper.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Of course, she also surely must have known that she was getting into this exact situation?

If only someone could have predicted that the political party of Ian Paisley would turn out to be backward, obstructive and obstreperous.

Ironically the DUP couldn't give a chuff about "divergence with Britain" and "convergence with Ireland" when the subject comes around to such things as abortion and gay marriage. When that happens they're only too happy to align themselves with the more backward elements in the Republic.

Not fair to criticise Leavers for not doing research when many Remainers failed to do likewise.

Hmm.

How much research can you do into "I quite like the status quo, however imperfect it is, and don't want it to change".

You'd think those who DID want change might have come up with an idea. They wanted control, one would expect them to know what they wanted from their new power. Alas, no. Like a teenager whose parent unexpectedly says yes, they don't know what to do.

 

[najaB]

Which is worse?

1 - The impact statements do exist but it's being denied in Parliament, (maybe) because of the nature of the contents
2 - The impact statements don't exist because DExEU didn't bother to run any industry assessments in the first place in spite of Davis's earlier statements.

Malfeasance or incompetence - I'm really not sure which is worse... I guess I'll go with incompetence because there's always the chance that they might stumble into an acceptable solution.

 

[Moonshot]

Malfeasance or incompetence - I'm really not sure which is worse... I guess I'll go with incompetence because there's always the chance that they might stumble into an acceptable solution.

To be fair, its almost inevitable that will happen......though I guess whatever happens some will object

 

[Howardh]

If only someone could have predicted that the political party of Ian Paisley would turn out to be backward, obstructive and obstreperous.

Ironically the DUP couldn't give a chuff about "divergence with Britain" and "convergence with Ireland" when the subject comes around to such things as abortion and gay marriage. When that happens they're only too happy to align themselves with the more backward elements in the Republic.



Hmm.

How much research can you do into "I quite like the status quo, however imperfect it is, and don't want it to change".

You'd think those who DID want change might have come up with an idea. They wanted control, one would expect them to know what they wanted from their new power. Alas, no. Like a teenager whose parent unexpectedly says yes, they don't know what to do.

If only someone had told the British Public that Brexit would be hugely expensive, a nightmare to administer, uncertainty beyond belief for business and industry and probably impossible due to the border. Perhaps it's as well no-one did as they'd be called "scaremongers" and ignored....

 

[Moonshot]

If only someone had told the British Public that Brexit would be hugely expensive, a nightmare to administer, uncertainty beyond belief for business and industry and probably impossible due to the border. Perhaps it's as well no-one did as they'd be called "scaremongers" and ignored....

isnt hindsight wonderful!! Anyway, we are where we are now and just have to get on with it.

 

[Howardh]

isnt hindsight wonderful!! Anyway, we are where we are now and just have to get on with it.

Wasn't hindsight in these towers. I was sounding off about the Irish Border with my Brexit-voting MP in the week leading up to the referendum. His glazed expression when I told him what exactly WTO rules meant, and that the border would have to be hard if the UK went down that route, and Mr. Para Military wouldn't be best pleased said it all. He still insisted that we vote Brexit - to take back control. Right, yeah. Who will be doing the controlling? The IRA? EU? USA? WTO?? India???

Ah, well, people get what they voted for. Mr Brexit-loving MP is alright, he's a Tory and can afford to run away to a tax haven. So relax.

 

[trash80]

Thats the point, no one seems to know what "it" is we need to get on with. Cabinet have yet to discuss and agree on what kind of Brexit they want, which to me sounds either bizarre or criminally irresponsible.

 

[nlogax]

isnt hindsight wonderful!! Anyway, we are where we are now and just have to get on with it.

Hindsight? Seriously?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Anyway, we are where we are now and just have to get on with it

And there lies the problem. Nobody in the corridors of power have the foggiest idea what "it" is and they're showing no signs whatsoever of getting on...

 

[Groningen]

We (in Netherlands) see a country that does not really know what to do next.