EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[AM9]

So I had a look here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_postage_stamps

and found no trace of any stamps referencing the (former) Metropolitan Counties. Now of course a Wikipedia article could be wrong but I suspect there are enough die hard philatelists around that we can trust this one to be accurate. Your assertion that the Post Office is somehow responsible for negative images of the Greater Manchester area is therefore a figment of your imagination. And surely the overspill estates housing large numbers of City fans are Wythenshawe (M22/M23) and Langley (M24).

Also note that the Post Office did issue stamps commemorating both the UK's joining of the EEC and the first direct elections to the European Parliament. It would be perfectly appropriate then to issue stamps to commemorate something as impactful as Brexit!

Maybe they should wait until it actually happens rather than be at the behest of pressure from those frustrated that its progress doesn't look like it was such a good idea.

 

[pemma]

The Royal Mail have a history of twisting political geography, so I'm sure they will aquiece. They have never recognised Greater Manchester as a county, but unless I'm mistaken, did recognise all the other Met counties from 1974. This has led to various negative images, from the Manchester City Region (as some would now call it) being demographically smaller than it actually is, to the myth perpetuated in some corners that Man City fans all come from Stockport. The latter being because many Manchester overspill estates and other residential areas, have SK post codes.

When Greater Manchester was invented, postcodes were still a few years off being invented, so Royal Mail thought if they used Greater Manchester as a postal county it would lead a higher chance of post being mis-sorted e.g. Cheadle, Greater Manchester would suggest to a mail sorter in another part of the country that it needs to go to the Manchester sorting office while Cheadle, Cheshire would mean the mail sorter would check and then find out it needs to go to Stockport.

While Royal Mail did recognise Merseyside, the decide that only some parts of Merseyside would have a Merseyside address e.g. West Kirby, Merseyside was incorrect for a postal address but Bottle, Merseyside was correct.

Have you noticed how most of your contributions seem to drag threads off-topic to discuss something about Greater Manchester?

 

[Dentonian]

So I had a look here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_postage_stamps

and found no trace of any stamps referencing the (former) Metropolitan Counties. Now of course a Wikipedia article could be wrong but I suspect there are enough die hard philatelists around that we can trust this one to be accurate. Your assertion that the Post Office is somehow responsible for negative images of the Greater Manchester area is therefore a figment of your imagination. And surely the overspill estates housing large numbers of City fans are Wythenshawe (M22/M23) and Langley (M24).

Also note that the Post Office did issue stamps commemorating both the UK's joining of the EEC and the first direct elections to the European Parliament. It would be perfectly appropriate then to issue stamps to commemorate something as impactful as Brexit!

Sorry, there seems to be a misunderstanding here - I was referring to the postcode system, not stamps. As regards overspills, I was referring to he likes of Hattersley and Brinnington. Both have SK postcodes, though only Brinny is in Stockport MBC and both are largely populated by the descendants of Mancunians "displaced" in the 1960s.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Sorry, there seems to be a misunderstanding here - I was referring to the postcode system, not stamps. As regards overspills, I was referring to he likes of Hattersley and Brinnington. Both have SK postcodes, though only Brinny is in Stockport MBC and both are largely populated by the descendants of Mancunians "displaced" in the 1960s.

Point taken. But one feature of postcodes is that they render county names completely surplus to postal addressing requirements.

There are plenty of "displaced" city exiles living in different postal areas: Skelmersdale is dominated by ex-Liverpudlians but their postcode area is WN8. And Skelmersdale isn't in Greater Manchester either! In short postcodes exist solely for the benefit of expediting the sorting and delivery of the mail but at least ours do allow some geographical relationship between the code and the place: US Zip codes are just strings of numbers.

 

[Dentonian]

Point taken. But one feature of postcodes is that they render county names completely surplus to postal addressing requirements.

There are plenty of "displaced" city exiles living in different postal areas: Skelmersdale is dominated by ex-Liverpudlians but their postcode area is WN8. And Skelmersdale isn't in Greater Manchester either! In short postcodes exist solely for the benefit of expediting the sorting and delivery of the mail but at least ours do allow some geographical relationship between the code and the place: US Zip codes are just strings of numbers.

Maybe county names (ex Met and Shire) should simply be dropped. Whenever I am asked for my address (legitimately) nowadays, I usually have to either just give the house number and first name of the street, or house number and full postcode. Denton, Manchester and Lancashire are all now superfluous in this regard.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Maybe county names (ex Met and Shire) should simply be dropped. Whenever I am asked for my address (legitimately) nowadays, I usually have to either just give the house number and first name of the street, or house number and full postcode. Denton, Manchester and Lancashire are all now superfluous in this regard.

Not entirely. They serve as check data in case you write something wrong. If write only the house number and the postcode, but make a mistake in the postcode, your letter will have basically zero chance of reaching the intended recipient. If you add the usual address information, then it will have an excellent chance of getting to the correct house.

 

[AM9]

It looks like Corbyn and his team are coming around to a new position. It will be interesting to hear the reaction of the Conservative leave mouthpieces to what must be seen as a threat to their influence over a weak leadership. See here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43189878

A Labour government would negotiate "full tariff-free" access to EU markets for UK businesses after Brexit, Jeremy Corbyn is to say in a speech.

The Labour leader is expected to confirm his support for permanent membership of a customs union after the UK leaves the EU in March 2019.

He will also pledge to protect jobs and guarantee existing rights.

BBC political correspondent Ben Wright said the speech could force the government to change its position.

At last the issue of leaving full membership of the EU can be dealt with as more than a squabble between the Conservative right-wing and the majority of government MPs. It seems that respected leading Labour MP, Kier Starmer who has been working closely with the CBI, has by persistent attention to detail, got the ear of the momentum sector of Labour. Momentum probably holds the key to the rump of leave votes, and telling those voters what the impact of the "you lost - get over it" attitude could be 'you won but you are going to pay ther most' may be key to the direction of negotiations.
Claire Perry was just interviewed on Today seemingly concerned that Labour voters wouldn't get what they voted for. Hearing such altruistic concern for the supporters of their opposition is quite a novelty.

 

[furnessvale]

It looks like Corbyn and his team are coming around to a new position. It will be interesting to hear the reaction of the Conservative leave mouthpieces to what must be seen as a threat to their influence over a weak leadership. See here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43189878



At last the issue of leaving full membership of the EU can be dealt with as more than a squabble between the Conservative right-wing and the majority of government MPs. It seems that respected leading Labour MP, Kier Starmer who has been working closely with the CBI, has by persistent attention to detail, got the ear of the momentum sector of Labour. Momentum probably holds the key to the rump of leave votes, and telling those voters what the impact of the "you lost - get over it" attitude could be 'you won but you are going to pay ther most' may be key to the direction of negotiations.
Claire Perry was just interviewed on Today seemingly concerned that Labour voters wouldn't get what they voted for. Hearing such altruistic concern for the supporters of their opposition is quite a novelty.

So Corbyn is going to negotiate exactly what the EU has said is impossible, tariff free access without full membership.

Good luck with that one!

 

[nlogax]

So Corbyn is going to negotiate exactly what the EU has said is impossible, tariff free access without full membership.

Good luck with that one!

I agree with you there. In terms of trade it's difficult to see what, if anything, the UK can realistically hope to achieve while both main parties cling to the idea of à la carte market access without concessions to the EU's consistent stance on the four freedoms. The UK wants its pudding without eating the meat first. (sorry, Floyd fans)

 

[EM2]

So Corbyn is going to negotiate exactly what the EU has said is impossible, tariff free access without full membership.

Good luck with that one!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...alks-single-market-divorce-bill-a7961596.html
Theresa thought she could have it:

Furthermore, we share the same set of fundamental beliefs; a belief in free trade, rigorous and fair competition, strong consumer rights, and that trying to beat other countries’ industries by unfairly subsidising one’s own is a serious mistake. So there is no need to impose tariffs where we have none now, and I don’t think anyone sensible is contemplating this.

And as we have set out in a future partnership paper, when it comes to trade in goods, we will do everything we can to avoid friction at the border.

 

[furnessvale]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...alks-single-market-divorce-bill-a7961596.html
Theresa thought she could have it:

Exactly, so what magic bullet does Corbyn have?

 

[EM2]

Exactly, so what magic bullet does Corbyn have?

None. He's as pro-Brexit as Gove and Davis.
But don't have a dig at his stance, unless you're willing to concede that the Government's position is equally invalid.

 

[AM9]

Exactly, so what magic bullet does Corbyn have?

This action changes the parliamentary voting situation in any leave EU bills. So it should clip the wings of the more extreme leavers, especially Rees-Mogg,
Even the anti-EU press recognises that the Conservative party is: "attempting to negotiate with foreign governments while simultaneously negotiating with itself and its own party" (Daily Telegraph 21 February 2018) and it suggests that hardliners are maybe becoming a hindrance by the questions in it's poll, (whereas its readers seem to think that MP's extreme stance helps). Still, that's all good news as it will polarise the actual views of all Conservative MPs, most of whom aren't leavers and are looking for reasons to vote with their heads rather than out of fear of the whips.

 

[furnessvale]

None. He's as pro-Brexit as Gove and Davis.
But don't have a dig at his stance, unless you're willing to concede that the Government's position is equally invalid.

When Corbyn openly declares his stance on Brexit maybe I will. However, he is trying to portray HIS stance as different from May's and somehow his position will succeed?

 

[EM2]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...t-promises-leavers-quietly-dropped?CMP=twt_gu
11 Brexit promises the government quietly dropped

Leaving aside the £350m for the NHS, Brexit has promised quick and easy trade deals with the EU and the rest of the world, an end to ECJ jurisdiction and free movement, and British control of North Sea fishing. None of this has come to pass. Here are 11 key abandoned claims

 

[fowler9]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...t-promises-leavers-quietly-dropped?CMP=twt_gu
11 Brexit promises the government quietly dropped

It's not like any of them were important. Erm. Ha ha.

 

[3141]

But it wasn't "the government" that said these things would happen. It was certain individual MPs on the Leave campaign before the referendum. Agreed, some things are now turning out very differently. It was our job as voters to assess what was being said - by both sides - and decide if we thought it was likely to be accurate, and vote accordingly. Most of the things the Guardian refers to weren't "promises". I think the Leave vote was a big mistake, but we've made it, and we/the government, which is not the same as the one two years ago, should now get on with getting the best possible deal in the circumstances, which aren't generally in our favour; and at future elections show Boris, Gove etc. we think they deliberately misled us by not voting for them. (Which could be difficult if the alternative is also unattractive.)

 

[Bromley boy]

I’ve just noticed it is exactly one year from tomorrow that the UK will leave the EU.

The clock is ticking...

 

[fowler9]

But it wasn't "the government" that said these things would happen. It was certain individual MPs on the Leave campaign before the referendum. Agreed, some things are now turning out very differently. It was our job as voters to assess what was being said - by both sides - and decide if we thought it was likely to be accurate, and vote accordingly. Most of the things the Guardian refers to weren't "promises". I think the Leave vote was a big mistake, but we've made it, and we/the government, which is not the same as the one two years ago, should now get on with getting the best possible deal in the circumstances, which aren't generally in our favour; and at future elections show Boris, Gove etc. we think they deliberately misled us by not voting for them. (Which could be difficult if the alternative is also unattractive.)

The thing is once we leave it is too late to show Boris, Gove and David Davis what we think. We are stuck and if we decide it was a load of rubbish then the only way back in to the EU will be with the Euro, Schengen etc. If we had left with some kind of plan I could have accepted it. At the minute it really does look like the "Lads night out" analogy. Some of the lads don't like the club and convince everyone else there are other places that are better. Once you are out on the street they admit they haven't got a clue where to go next, tell you they never said somewhere else would be better, the original club won't let you back in and neither will anyone else unless you give them what they want.

 

[Bromley boy]

At the minute it really does look like the "Lads night out" analogy. Some of the lads don't like the club and convince everyone else there are other places that are better. Once you are out on the street they admit they haven't got a clue where to go next, tell you they never said somewhere else would be better, the original club won't let you back in and neither will anyone else unless you give them what they want.

With respect, does a “lads’ night out” anaology really work when applied to Brexit?!

Once the U.K. has left the EU we won’t all be able collapse into a cab home and text each other about what happened the next day, who had s*x with whom, for one thing.

 

[EM2]

But it wasn't "the government" that said these things would happen. It was certain individual MPs on the Leave campaign before the referendum.

Who were members of the Government (or at the very least, MPs of the party that was in Government).

Agreed, some things are now turning out very differently. It was our job as voters to assess what was being said - by both sides - and decide if we thought it was likely to be accurate, and vote accordingly.

Which they have shown not to be.

 

[AlterEgo]

It was our job as voters to assess what was being said - by both sides - and decide if we thought it was likely to be accurate, and vote accordingly.

Most voters in the referendum voted based on ideology. I don’t think there was a great deal of mathematics going on in the head of voters, nor much balancing of facts.

The vote to Leave was an anti-immigration, anti-liberal vote.

Not many people listened to “experts” during the referendum lead-in and they’re still not being listened to now. I’ve lost all trust in the ability of anyone with an education in that area to predict how leaving the EU will affect Britain.

 

[Senex]

I think the Leave vote was a big mistake, but we've made it, and we/the government, which is not the same as the one two years ago, should now get on with getting the best possible deal in the circumstances, which aren't generally in our favour; ...

What about the constitutional conundrum? A referendum in which a tiny majority of those voting sufficed to trigger an unspecified form of exit (i.e. no threshold, not details of what what was being voted for actually meant) trumps and decisions of parliament according to some. And on the other side the long-established constitutional principle that MPs are not delegates but representatives sent to parliament to exercise their own individual best judgements on behalf of their constituents as to what they consider best for both those constituents and for the country. When all the details of the proposed leave arrangement are known, what should MPs do if, even if they were leavers at an earlier stage, they decide that leaving would be so bleak a prospect that the only sensible thing to do is to try to remain?

 

[Howardh]

I’ve just noticed it is exactly one year from tomorrow that the UK will leave the EU.

The clock is ticking...

One daily "news" paper has a beautiful photograph of a cliff edge on it's front page. Oh, and the cliffs have been photoshopped to show they are a lot whiter than they really are. You couldn't make it up...althoug since they have been taken over by the Mirror group, I wouldn't be surprised if it's been designed that way deliberately.

 

[pemma]

According to a newspaper poll 82% of those voted remain want to remain in the single market, as do 22% of those who voted for Brexit, which overall means more want to remain in the single market than leave.

 

[Senex]

According to a newspaper poll 82% of those voted remain want to remain in the single market, as do 22% of those who voted for Brexit, which overall means more want to remain in the single market than leave.

But where does that get us given that the Tories now seem dead set on sticking to their hard Brexit and making the issue a vote-of-confidence matter in the Commons. Labour seem to be coming round to the idea of staying in a/the customs union, but what is that worth given the feeble lead on EU matters from Corbyn? And how many MPs in the event will vote with their consciences if those tell them to stay rather than just blindly follow the line of party loyalty however damaging they think the consequences of so doing to be?

 

[AM9]

But where does that get us given that the Tories now seem dead set on sticking to their hard Brexit and making the issue a vote-of-confidence matter in the Commons. Labour seem to be coming round to the idea of staying in a/the customs union, but what is that worth given the feeble lead on EU matters from Corbyn? And how many MPs in the event will vote with their consciences if those tell them to stay rather than just blindly follow the line of party loyalty however damaging they think the consequences of so doing to be?

Just about everthing to do with the referendum has been about propping up the Conservative party. From Cameron's 'initiative' to kill off the UKIP threat to his party by granting a referendum that he thought he could win. The crowning of May as a PM which even the leavers thought that would hold the party together. The disasterous election last year which May thought would give the party a better majority. The tightrope that is being walked on the Irish border that May is naively (or dishonestly) assuming can allow a free market to operate without any hope of the EU accepting it, - (they rejected it last week and her only way along the current course is to wait until the EU insists that the Irish government closes it). The latest step that we are being led into is for her to threaten any dissenting Conservative MPs of this bizaare 'game' (it doesn't warrant the title of 'policy') lest they should dare support their own or their electorate's interests in a few weeks. How much longer can her house of cards stand?
Well Amber Rudd is pushing aside all the immigration rules that were so important two weeks ago in order that this total failure of policy can be brushed under the carpet and removed from the media's reporting asap. What's next?

 

[najaB]

and text each other about what happened the next day, who had s*x with whom, for one thing.

Surely the answer there is that we're all f

 

[cactustwirly]

The only way to solve the Ireland border issue is to remain in the customs union.
Having a border across either Ireland or the Irish sea would be politically unacceptable, and it could also restart the conflict in NI.

Yet Theresa May insists on leaving the customs union.

 

[pemma]

The only way to solve the Ireland border issue is to remain in the customs union.
Having a border across either Ireland or the Irish sea would be politically unacceptable, and it could also restart the conflict in NI.

Yet Theresa May insists on leaving the customs union.

Theresa May's agreement with the DUP demonstrated she doesn't care what happens in Northern Ireland or how much money gets sent to Northern Ireland as long as she gets her policies voted through in Westminster. While Ms Foster blames Sinn Fein for power sharing talks collapsing in Northern Ireland because of their financial demands - the irony!