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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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mmh

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Because post Brexit, Ireland will have different customs rules to the UK.
Therefore if the customs union is left, there would have to be customs checks on every border with Ireland.
Ireland will also have FoM with the EU, whereas the UK won't, so there will be different immigration laws.

This is conflating people with goods and trade again. What is the market for smuggling goods by road between Northern Ireland and the Republic and vice-versa? Negligible, not worth worrying about. It's an easier problem to solve than at the EU's other land borders because both Ireland and Britain are islands, it's impossible to transport goods between either the islands themselves or any other EU countries without going through a port with customs checks, be it a ferry port or airport.

Immigration is a separate matter, Ireland right now could be seen as a back door into the UK. It's no big problem though as Ireland isn't in Schengen so does immigration checks on everyone except, err, arrivals from the UK who also aren't in Schengen so do as well.
 
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cactustwirly

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This is conflating people with goods and trade again. What is the market for smuggling goods by road between Northern Ireland and the Republic and vice-versa? Negligible, not worth worrying about. It's an easier problem to solve than at the EU's other land borders because both Ireland and Britain are islands, it's impossible to transport goods between either the islands themselves or any other EU countries without going through a port with customs checks, be it a ferry port or airport.

Immigration is a separate matter, Ireland right now could be seen as a back door into the UK. It's no big problem though as Ireland isn't in Schengen so does immigration checks on everyone except, err, arrivals from the UK who also aren't in Schengen so do as well.
No it isn't, you still need customs checks, unless NI remains in the single market.
But anyone from Europe can travel to Ireland it's called freedom of movement, these people are free to travel within the CTA, unless you have immigration checks at the Irish border.
 

Bromley boy

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No it isn't, you still need customs checks, unless NI remains in the single market.
But anyone from Europe can travel to Ireland it's called freedom of movement, these people are free to travel within the CTA, unless you have immigration checks at the Irish border.

Yes but presumably, following Brexit, EU citizens will have the ability to come to the U.K. for X number of days withojt a visa, so why can’t they simply be recorded when entering the U.K. via port/airport?

Customs checks can surely be done using some kind of technological monitoring solution.
 

AlterEgo

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This is conflating people with goods and trade again. What is the market for smuggling goods by road between Northern Ireland and the Republic and vice-versa? Negligible, not worth worrying about.

The market for smuggling goods by road between NI and the Republic is significant. Mostly fuel, which finances paramilitary groups. This market will increase in size with Brexit as it will likely lead to a differential in fuel prices either side of the border.
 

EM2

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What is the market for smuggling goods by road between Northern Ireland and the Republic and vice-versa? Negligible, not worth worrying about.
But it's not just smuggling. Anything bought in NI and brought back to RoI (and vice-versa) over a certain value would have to be declared and customs charges possibly paid, much as it is now if I buy something online from a merchant outside the EU.
So bang goes any cross-border trade, such as residents of County Cavan going to Enniskillen to do their shopping.
 

Jonny

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But it's not just smuggling. Anything bought in NI and brought back to RoI (and vice-versa) over a certain value would have to be declared and customs charges possibly paid, much as it is now if I buy something online from a merchant outside the EU.
So bang goes any cross-border trade, such as residents of County Cavan going to Enniskillen to do their shopping.

We the British only need to monitor inbound vehicles as a matter of course; although intelligence-led operations on outbound vehicles may occur from time to time.
 

furnessvale

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But it's not just smuggling. Anything bought in NI and brought back to RoI (and vice-versa) over a certain value would have to be declared and customs charges possibly paid, much as it is now if I buy something online from a merchant outside the EU.
So bang goes any cross-border trade, such as residents of County Cavan going to Enniskillen to do their shopping.
Indeed, the EU will have to maintain its protectionist barriers.
 

pemma

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If we accept free movement of people to/from the EU post brexit, nothing need change with the border. If we don't then how do we stop people from Spain / Germany / Poland, who have legitimate free access to Eire, coming north into Northern Ireland, and subsequently the rest of the UK? Eire not being part of Schengen doesn't mean there are any extra restrictions on EU residents travelling there.

Indeed. For people arriving in Ireland from other EU countries, nothing more than a quick check of a passport is required - they don't have to convince the person at passport control they have enough money for their stay, they don't plan to work or that they have plans to leave. Those wanting greater control of our borders who also say we can have a soft border between NI and ROI are talking rubbish. If we have a soft border then nothing changes in relation to taking control of our borders and someone from Spain can have a request for a working visa rejected and then get in to the country without us even knowing they are there.
 

Howardh

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This is conflating people with goods and trade again. What is the market for smuggling goods by road between Northern Ireland and the Republic and vice-versa? Negligible, not worth worrying about. It's an easier problem to solve than at the EU's other land borders because both Ireland and Britain are islands, it's impossible to transport goods between either the islands themselves or any other EU countries without going through a port with customs checks, be it a ferry port or airport.

Immigration is a separate matter, Ireland right now could be seen as a back door into the UK. It's no big problem though as Ireland isn't in Schengen so does immigration checks on everyone except, err, arrivals from the UK who also aren't in Schengen so do as well.

The smuggling issue - there's not much smuggling between the EU and the UK today on the grounds that for personal use, duty-paid goods are thoroughly legal. Cigsm booze, iphones etc.

However should the UK decide that we lose those duty-paid allowances and go back to our thimbleful of duty-free - which would delight Brexiters wishing to live in the 50's again no doubt, then you have the situation where someone alighting a ferry at Roslaire and breezing through Irish customs with a van load of cheap French wine would then be able to take the lot into the UK across the border (if the UK is out of the customs union he should expect to pay additional duty on his goods) unchecked.

The only way to stop this is to have physical checks at the border (back to square one).

As for immigration, if a (to pick any countries) Japanese or Bangladeshi is legally in the EU (tourist visa) he can enter Ireland, That visa may not be valid for the UK; yet he can still cross the Irish border into the UK. How do we get over that without a hard border?
 

pemma

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Assuming that is the case it is not necessarily true. Shipping costs using the latest huge containerships have now fallen to a level where transport costs around the world using them are routinely ignored by economists working in that area.

Contrast that with 1000km road trips in the EU and, counterintuitively, it can be cheaper importing/exporting to and from locations like China and the USA than crossing the Channel with HGVs and moving any reasonable distance further by road.

Yet the new cars arriving at Southampton by sea still have to be transported to other parts of the country by road.
 

Howardh

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Yes but presumably, following Brexit, EU citizens will have the ability to come to the U.K. for X number of days withojt a visa, so why can’t they simply be recorded when entering the U.K. via port/airport?

Customs checks can surely be done using some kind of technological monitoring solution.
In thoery yes, but in practice no as (a) they can come in via Ireland and leave via Heathrow* so that would be a net of -1 or (b) come in via Heathrow and leave via Ireland and that would be +1 as we ouldn't have a record of them crossing the border.
*Or any port of entry/exit of course
Currently I doubt the figures would be particularly large of EU tourists entering the Irish Republic and crossing to the UK mainland and leaving there, but of course we wouldn't know as, well, it's pretty well irellevant today, but students and those looking for work may well be on a grand tour (if I were EU and spending time in the British Isles I'd want to visit Dublin at least...) and the number may be higher then we think.
If the border is left open and the others *closed* then those neer-do-well's will simply head for that and avoid mainland ports.
 

Howardh

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Just noted that in the Telegraph (won't link or woute as it's behind a paywall) there's a headline that May's conceded her two customs options are unworkable. That will leave her two options; the EEA model with open borders and FoM or the hard border option which would probably re-ignight the troubles, end the CTA and tear up the GFA.
 

radamfi

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As for immigration, if a (to pick any countries) Japanese or Bangladeshi is legally in the EU (tourist visa) he can enter Ireland, That visa may not be valid for the UK; yet he can still cross the Irish border into the UK. How do we get over that without a hard border?

For non-EU visitors, the UK and Ireland have separate visa systems so strictly speaking they are supposed to have visas for both countries. There are occasional checks on the Enterprise and Belfast-Dublin coaches to enforce this.
 

pemma

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For non-EU visitors, the UK and Ireland have separate visa systems so strictly speaking they are supposed to have visas for both countries. There are occasional checks on the Enterprise and Belfast-Dublin coaches to enforce this.

Separate visas is also something which affects the Spain-Gibraltar border at present. A non-EU national with a visa for Spain is not automatically allowed to enter Gibraltar or vice versa.

Unlike many Schengen countries we don't have a requirement for everyone to have a passport or national ID card on or near* them at all times, so if checks aren't done at the border it's harder to catch those who shouldn't legally be in the country.

* This sometimes means you can leave your passport at your hotel if you're remaining in the city you're staying in but if you go on a day trip to another city in the same country you need to take your passport with you. Although, you might consider it less convenient to have to go back to the hotel to get your passport if the police request to see it.
 

Howardh

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For non-EU visitors, the UK and Ireland have separate visa systems so strictly speaking they are supposed to have visas for both countries. There are occasional checks on the Enterprise and Belfast-Dublin coaches to enforce this.
Doesn't stop them getting to the border and walking right through!
Separate visas is also something which affects the Spain-Gibraltar border at present. A non-EU national with a visa for Spain is not automatically allowed to enter Gibraltar or vice versa.

Unlike many Schengen countries we don't have a requirement for everyone to have a passport or national ID card on or near* them at all times, so if checks aren't done at the border it's harder to catch those who shouldn't legally be in the country.

* This sometimes means you can leave your passport at your hotel if you're remaining in the city you're staying in but if you go on a day trip to another city in the same country you need to take your passport with you. Although, you might consider it less convenient to have to go back to the hotel to get your passport if the police request to see it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, Gibraltar - like the Channel Islands and the Isle Of Man; isn't strictly in the EU (hence the Spanish authorities trying to stop peole smuggling cheap duty-free/duty paid tobacco into Spain from Gibraltar) although IIRC they do accept freedom of movement. Think the same applies to the Canaries?
Can anyone clarify this?
In any case, shoud we need to go down the ETIAD route, especially with work visas; that will affect those commuting to and from Gibraltar in both directions. One assumes that if the EU brings in the ETIAD system for Brits, we wouldn't be required to have one to travel from the UK to Gibraltar, but would to cross from Gibraltar into Spain.
Thanks for this unholy mess, Brexit!!

Also; will residents of North and the Republic's driving licences and insurance be accepted by both sides?
 

mmh

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No it isn't, you still need customs checks, unless NI remains in the single market.
But anyone from Europe can travel to Ireland it's called freedom of movement, these people are free to travel within the CTA, unless you have immigration checks at the Irish border.

And those customs checks can take place at the ports between Ireland and the British mainland which is where the actual trade transports through. There should be absolutely nothing to prevent Ireland and the UK agreeing that the open land border remains. Both countries want that, and the only barrier to it is EU interference.
 

cactustwirly

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And those customs checks can take place at the ports between Ireland and the British mainland which is where the actual trade transports through. There should be absolutely nothing to prevent Ireland and the UK agreeing that the open land border remains. Both countries want that, and the only barrier to it is EU interference.

So you're happy that NI has to stay in the EU, but the rest of the UK leaves?#
Which effectively breaks NI away from the UK.
 

Howardh

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And those customs checks can take place at the ports between Ireland and the British mainland which is where the actual trade transports through. There should be absolutely nothing to prevent Ireland and the UK agreeing that the open land border remains. Both countries want that, and the only barrier to it is EU interference.
The EU will, rightly, insist on a closed border in order to maintain the integrity of the single market which benefits the remaining EU members. It's not the doing of the EU that the UK is leaving, the fault of a hard border will be entirely that of the UK and it's decision. There's no way of getting round that and shifting the blame to the EU.

If the EU (assuming no customs deal) allows the border to remain open, then Poland could argue to have an open border with Ukraine; or Bulgaria with Turkey etc etc. Not saying they WOULD but a precident would have been set.
 

Howardh

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So you're happy that NI has to stay in the EU, but the rest of the UK leaves?#
Which effectively breaks NI away from the UK.
It's a fascinating thought that there will be many in the North who voted, like the UK, to leave the EU but because of where they live they will be forced to remain in the EU. Those will also probably strongly identify themselves with the UK/GB rather than the Republic; so not only will still be in the EU but also separated form Great Britain and maybe even requiring documents to travel here and back. Will of the people and all that?
 

whhistle

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... the EEA model with open borders and FoM or end the CTA and tear up the GFA.
That's a whole lot of acronyms there...

Forum Rules said:
Please remember many members do not understand “jargon” (including acronyms). Such terms should be correctly defined the first time they are used.
 

HSTEd

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I love how people imply that the IRA will take up arms again if a border goes between the Republic and Northern Ireland, but that the Unionists would not take up arms again if there is a border between NI and the rest of the UK?

And lack of freedom of movement (to work) does not require border checks, those people can be picked up if they attempt to actually get a job.
 

NSEFAN

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I love how people imply that the IRA will take up arms again if a border goes between the Republic and Northern Ireland, but that the Unionists would not take up arms again if there is a border between NI and the rest of the UK?

And lack of freedom of movement (to work) does not require border checks, those people can be picked up if they attempt to actually get a job.
... a job with an employer who follows the rules. If all illegal immigrants were so picked up when they tried to get a job, then there wouldn't be any and we wouldn't have had so many reasons to leave the EU in the first place. ;)
 

mmh

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In thoery yes, but in practice no as (a) they can come in via Ireland and leave via Heathrow* so that would be a net of -1 or (b) come in via Heathrow and leave via Ireland and that would be +1 as we ouldn't have a record of them crossing the border.
*Or any port of entry/exit of course
Currently I doubt the figures would be particularly large of EU tourists entering the Irish Republic and crossing to the UK mainland and leaving there, but of course we wouldn't know as, well, it's pretty well irellevant today, but students and those looking for work may well be on a grand tour (if I were EU and spending time in the British Isles I'd want to visit Dublin at least...) and the number may be higher then we think.
If the border is left open and the others *closed* then those neer-do-well's will simply head for that and avoid mainland ports.

As I've said multiple times there are no immigration checks on anyone crossing between Ireland and the UK, whether the crossing is over the land border or by air or sea. If you want to reach the British mainland as a neer-do-well there's really no need to to cross into Northern Ireland unless that's where you want to be.
 

cactustwirly

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As I've said multiple times there are no immigration checks on anyone crossing between Ireland and the UK, whether the crossing is over the land border or by air or sea. If you want to reach the British mainland as a neer-do-well there's really no need to to cross into Northern Ireland unless that's where you want to be.

Yes that's because of the CTA!
It's unlikely the CTA will exist post Brexit, unless the Custom's Union is kept.
Or else NI will have to stay in the EU, for there to be no hard border (this is currently in the draft legislation, and will be the plan if there isn't a customs deal)

I don't unterstand why you can't accept we can't have a soft border and completely leave the EU (a certain saying involving cake & eating springs to mind)! Compromises will need to happen!
 

mmh

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So you're happy that NI has to stay in the EU, but the rest of the UK leaves?#
Which effectively breaks NI away from the UK.

It does not have to stay in the EU, or break away from the UK. Only the EU and EU supporters seem to relish unnecessarily trying to re-ignite those fires. I have no particular opinion on a re-united Ireland or not, not being Irish I think it'd be quite strange if I did.
 

pemma

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Correct me if I'm wrong, Gibraltar - like the Channel Islands and the Isle Of Man; isn't strictly in the EU (hence the Spanish authorities trying to stop peole smuggling cheap duty-free/duty paid tobacco into Spain from Gibraltar) although IIRC they do accept freedom of movement. Think the same applies to the Canaries?
Can anyone clarify this?
In any case, shoud we need to go down the ETIAD route, especially with work visas; that will affect those commuting to and from Gibraltar in both directions. One assumes that if the EU brings in the ETIAD system for Brits, we wouldn't be required to have one to travel from the UK to Gibraltar, but would to cross from Gibraltar into Spain.
Thanks for this unholy mess, Brexit!!

Also; will residents of North and the Republic's driving licences and insurance be accepted by both sides?

Gibraltar is part of the United Kingdom but with a lot less Westminster control than Northern Ireland. In an EU election votes cast in Gibraltar are added to ones cast in the South West of England. Consequently Spanish nationals can get across the border with just their EU/Spain ID Card and attempts for Spain to charge to use the border in one form or another have been prevented by the EU up until now.
 

pemma

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... a job with an employer who follows the rules. If all illegal immigrants were so picked up when they tried to get a job, then there wouldn't be any and we wouldn't have had so many reasons to leave the EU in the first place. ;)

Or just an employer who uses a loophole in the system. There are Eastern Europeans working in the UK not getting the UK minimum wage but legally as they are employed through an employer in their home country instead of one in the UK.
 

Bromley boy

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The EU will, rightly, insist on a closed border in order to maintain the integrity of the single market which benefits the remaining EU members. It's not the doing of the EU that the UK is leaving, the fault of a hard border will be entirely that of the UK and it's decision. There's no way of getting round that and shifting the blame to the EU.

Is is not a bit of a contradiction to state that the EU will insist on a hard border, and that this will be entirely the fault of the U.K.?

For one thing it seems odd to talk about “fault”. The EU as an institution has always made treaty provision for the eventuality that member states may leave if they wish, so the act of a member state leaving is a legitimate one, within the scope of EU membership (if that makes sense). The U.K. has always compromised on the border between Eire and NI so it doesn’t seem unreasonable to consider that the EU should also show some flexibility, since this will benefit Eire (one of its member states).
 
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