EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ainsworth74, 23 Jun 2016.

  1. dosxuk

    dosxuk Member

    Messages:
    474
    Joined:
    2 Jan 2011
    Actually, the EU is the one who has proposed that Northern Ireland remains in regulatory alignment with the EU, and the customs border is moved to the Irish Sea. The problem with the idea is the DUP - that small party who will have no part in putting any sort of barrier between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK, and also happen to be in a position to collapse the government.

    This, in effect, is why nobody has gotten rid of May yet - they simply don't want the headache of taking over.
     
  2. fowler9

    fowler9 Established Member

    Messages:
    7,496
    Joined:
    29 Oct 2013
    Location:
    Liverpool
    I struggle to see how we can have a clean break with the EU and not have a hard border with ROI. Not because I want one (I am a Remainer) just that how can anyone in power agree to have hard borders at every other entry point to the UK but that one, it makes no sense. It makes the whole thing pointless. ​
     
  3. Bromley boy

    Bromley boy Established Member

    Messages:
    4,347
    Joined:
    18 Jun 2015
    From the discussion above it seems an “open” border from a movement of persons perspective could be made to work. The customs side of things needs some consideration, but there may be technological solutions available.

    None of it sounds completely insoluble, given a little sensible compromise from both sides.
     
  4. furnessvale

    furnessvale Established Member

    Messages:
    2,472
    Joined:
    14 Jul 2015
    Of course. I was countering the statement that importing/exporting goods to/from the EU is "much" cheaper than transporting goods from much further afield.

    Whether goods arrive from the far east at Southampton or the EU at Dover they still have to be transported to other parts of the country but, in the case of Southampton, they often have the rail option!
     
  5. fowler9

    fowler9 Established Member

    Messages:
    7,496
    Joined:
    29 Oct 2013
    Location:
    Liverpool
    I really hope so. Even as a Remainer I think that overturning the result of the referendum would produce a constitutional nightmare. The thing is that even if you just let people go to and fro across the border both ourselves and the EU are not going to be able to let cars and lorries just fly through without being checked at some point. I think I have mentioned before travelling from Dubrovnik to go further North in to Croatia passing through Bosnia on the coast. It is a relatively painless passage but is still a pain in the neck at busy times, and that would be a lot more painless than getting from the ROI to the UK or at least should be as Dubrovnik is a tiny enclave in Bosnia and once you get in to Bosnia then unless you hike over mountains you have to leave the country again.
     
  6. dosxuk

    dosxuk Member

    Messages:
    474
    Joined:
    2 Jan 2011
    Unfortunately though, on the UK side, we have several groups with different opinions on how this should be done, and none of them are willing to compromise.
     
  7. 87 027

    87 027 Member

    Messages:
    205
    Joined:
    1 Sep 2010
    Location:
    London
    It's not just customs though - there is also the movement of regulated goods to consider e.g. horticultural, plants, live animals, animal products and high risk food and feed products. Currently entry of such products into the EU/EEA is controlled and may be subject to examination at Border Inspection Posts. There is free movement within the EU/EEA although there is a tracking mechanism. However if after Brexit we are treated as a third country outside the regulated perimeter then the border question becomes more tricky for the ROI (we in principle could do as we pleased). One option might be to agree to maintain compliance with existing standards, but then this might compromise our freedom to diverge and benefit from trade deals with the rest of the world where regulations may not be so strict. It's all up in the air at the moment but suggestions that clever cameras alone can provide the answer don't really go very far to addressing these sorts of questions.
     
    Last edited: 15 May 2018
  8. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

    Messages:
    29,830
    Joined:
    23 Jan 2009
    If you buy a German car it may well have been on a train before it reaches the UK. Maybe in the future there could be freight trains carrying cars from Munich and Frankfurt all the way to the UK.
     
  9. furnessvale

    furnessvale Established Member

    Messages:
    2,472
    Joined:
    14 Jul 2015
    I sincerely hope so, but the basic fact still remains that trade with the far east or USA is NOT hampered by the cost of transport involved as some would have us believe.
     
  10. 87 027

    87 027 Member

    Messages:
    205
    Joined:
    1 Sep 2010
    Location:
    London
    I've heard that transportation costs from the far east are actually very cheap and is one reason why Dubai Ports World are increasing capacity at the London ports. It's also one of the arguments in support of HS2 - volumes of freight carried on the classic WCML will increase significantly so passengers services will be bumped off (to HS2) to free up more capacity for said freight. That came personally from one of the C-level officers of HS2 so it must be true :)
     
  11. Bromley boy

    Bromley boy Established Member

    Messages:
    4,347
    Joined:
    18 Jun 2015
    Indeed.

    I should probably have said “from each side” in my previous post.
     
  12. EM2

    EM2 Established Member

    Messages:
    6,398
    Joined:
    16 Nov 2008
    Location:
    The home of the concrete cow
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44054594
    Brexit: What can UK learn from other external EU borders?
     
  13. nlogax

    nlogax Member

    Messages:
    730
    Joined:
    29 May 2011
    Just seen that this has been published by the Mossavar-Rahmani Center for Business & Government at Harvard's Kennedy School. Emphasis is mine.

    "This paper, the third in a series exploring the impact of Brexit on British businesses, examines the prospects for, and potential impact of, a free trade agreement between the US and the UK. The research is based primarily on interviews with senior government officials, economists and trade experts, plus a range of companies and trade associations from the UK, US, and Europe. We discuss the key potential upsides, possible risks and principal negotiating issues from both US and UK perspectives. We conclude that it is highly unlikely that a free trade deal between the US and the UK will be secured in the near term and that the likely potential benefits for British businesses are less than often suggested."

    https://www.hks.harvard.edu/centers/mrcbg/publications/awp/awp89

    If you don't want to read all 57 pages of the report then read the HuffPo summary instead - https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-america_uk_5afbcf89e4b0779345d40a58

    "Our conversations with senior trade negotiators in the Office of the US Trade Representative reveal that, when talks finally begin, removing or sharply reducing tariffs on agricultural products will be a key US objective. But while consumers would certainly see lower prices from such a deal, opening the UK market to much cheaper US food, produced under what are perceived to be lower health and environmental standards, could destroy large parts of British farming and face intense consumer resistance."
     
  14. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

    Messages:
    29,830
    Joined:
    23 Jan 2009
    Not sure I agree with that. From what I understand at the time the Ottoman Empire existed the area around Dubrovnik was a little independent nation called Ragusa, which bordered with the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire lacked a sea connection so they came to an arrangement with Ragusa whereby Ragusa handed over a bit of their land to the Ottomans and part of the agreement was the Ottomans would help keep the Venetians away from Ragusa.

    Present day and the little area in Bosnia & Herzegovina between former Ragusa and the rest of mainland Croatia is an area mainly inhabited by Croats. Plus all the islands and peninsulas belong to Croatia so it is possible to get from Dubrovnik to northern Croatia without entering Bosnia but only if you use a boat. Due to the mountains to the north east of Dubrovnik, Dubrovnik Airport isn't easily accessible to Bosnians* but is relatively easy to access from Montengero. Mountains and water make good natural borders, even if it looks like a strange area when drawn on a map.

    * Which is why coaches going from Dubrovnik to Mostar cross international borders three times, when on a map it looks like the journey is possible with a single border crossing.
     
    Last edited: 16 May 2018
  15. Howardh

    Howardh Established Member

    Messages:
    3,252
    Joined:
    17 May 2011
    Perhaps the solution is for us all to do a "Baarle Hertog" and declare our houses and gardens either in :wub: or out o_O of the EU, and we can have little crosses on the pavement so those Brexiters can avoid stepping into the EU. The lines could go through pubs and shops (as they do there!) so one side of the shop is under UK control and the other under EU control and the EU side is cheaper as there would be no tariffs/taxes on imported goods (and see which side Brexiters use....) :idea: <D
     
  16. Bromley boy

    Bromley boy Established Member

    Messages:
    4,347
    Joined:
    18 Jun 2015
    Markings on houses.... wouldn’t be the first time that has happened in Europe would it?<D
     
  17. AM9

    AM9 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,568
    Joined:
    13 May 2014
    Location:
    St Albans
    But at least it would allow normal UK residents to make it clear to England First and their ilk that they weren't welcome. :)
     
  18. fowler9

    fowler9 Established Member

    Messages:
    7,496
    Joined:
    29 Oct 2013
    Location:
    Liverpool
    Apologies, I used the wrong word. My point was the border crossing in and out of the EU where a pain in the bum.
     
  19. Bromley boy

    Bromley boy Established Member

    Messages:
    4,347
    Joined:
    18 Jun 2015
    I do hope you aren’t suggesting that all leave voters are the same as England First and their ilk?!

    If you think they are you must be mixing with some strange people :p.
     
  20. fowler9

    fowler9 Established Member

    Messages:
    7,496
    Joined:
    29 Oct 2013
    Location:
    Liverpool
    Only 50% I'd say. Ha ha.
     
  21. Bromley boy

    Bromley boy Established Member

    Messages:
    4,347
    Joined:
    18 Jun 2015
    No way!

    25% of us at the very most. ;)
     
  22. fowler9

    fowler9 Established Member

    Messages:
    7,496
    Joined:
    29 Oct 2013
    Location:
    Liverpool
    Are we all to be racists now Ted? Ha ha. I blame the Greeks.
     
  23. Howardh

    Howardh Established Member

    Messages:
    3,252
    Joined:
    17 May 2011
    Looks like we might be staying in the Customs Union indefinitely? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44148027



    V
     
  24. Bromley boy

    Bromley boy Established Member

    Messages:
    4,347
    Joined:
    18 Jun 2015
    How about the EU comes up with a “workable” solution, since it’s an EU border as much as a U.K. border?!
     
  25. Howardh

    Howardh Established Member

    Messages:
    3,252
    Joined:
    17 May 2011
    Not really, it's not the EU that have decided to leave the EU, and it's not even the Republic either. They can simply revert to WTO rules regarding that border, whatever those rules are. If we want to maintain an open border, we have to compromise and/or find a solution, except we have found one....stay in the customs union....for goods...and stay in the single market for people.
     
  26. Senex

    Senex Established Member

    Messages:
    1,704
    Joined:
    1 Apr 2014
    Location:
    York
    Did anyone else hear Ian Duncan-Smith on the Today programme about 8:40 this morning? His attitude came over (to me) as one of considerable arrogance with his claims that it was up to Ireland and the EU to get on with making progress and his unwillingness to acknowledge that there are any problems on the British (i.e. Tory party) side. Why do the arch-Brexiteers amongst the Tories seem to feel that Britain will be doing the EU a great favour by negotiating any sort of deal at all with it?
     
  27. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

    Messages:
    29,830
    Joined:
    23 Jan 2009
    It should also be noted as an EU member concerned about our own borders, we wanted the enhanced EU border checks introduced last year which were partly in response to the heightened terrorist threats. It would be hypocritical for us to want the EU to weaken its' borders for our benefit post-Brexit.
     
  28. nlogax

    nlogax Member

    Messages:
    730
    Joined:
    29 May 2011
    Because they lack any understanding or concept of reality?
    Because they're on their own internal Tory leadership power trips?*
    Because they have egos measurable in hectares?




    *ok, no-one's going to put IDS back in that position, we all saw how that went
     
  29. AM9

    AM9 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,568
    Joined:
    13 May 2014
    Location:
    St Albans
    You will of course have seen the emoticon there? However, for some leave voters, England First's agenda is just a logical progression from that of UKIP so 'if the cap fits they can wear it' (so to speak).
     
  30. mmh

    mmh Member

    Messages:
    804
    Joined:
    13 Aug 2016
    Dear me, that cliche, it's rabid racists and far right-wingers who voted leave.

    In fact, many of the safest Labour areas in the country voted leave, for example Hull, Doncaster, the South Wales valleys, Lancashire.

    The ballot didn't ask what your political viewpoint was, so any supposition that Labour == Remain, Tory == Leave etc is just guesswork or based on dubious opinion polls (why anyone takes much notice of them any more is a mystery)

    There's one thing you can confidently guess - yes, UKIP voters probably did vote Leave, and one thing you can tell from the results by region - the vast majority of the country by areas voted Leave other than a handful of mostly city areas (and Scotland, who in 2016 were still completely SNP brainwashed), and the large electorates in some of those resulted in a result closer than it otherwise would have been.
     

Share This Page