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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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pemma

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The ballot didn't ask what your political viewpoint was, so any supposition that Labour == Remain, Tory == Leave etc is just guesswork or based on dubious opinion polls (why anyone takes much notice of them any more is a mystery)

In fact, many of the safest Labour areas in the country voted leave, for example Hull, Doncaster, the South Wales valleys, Lancashire.

Really? Lancashire County Council is under the control of the Conservatives while its' MPs include Conservatives Nigel Evans, Paul Maynard, Ben Wallace, Mark Menzies, David Morris, Andrew Stephenson, Jake Berry and Seema Kennedy. The former Lancashire cities of Liverpool and Manchester (both areas which voted remain) are some of the safest Labour areas in the country* - present day Lancashire is very mixed.

While a presumption that Labour voters voted remain and Conservative voters voted leave is wrong, there are certain groups which are more likely to have voted leave or remain. For example, the older richer Conservative voters are more likely to have voted leave and the same is true of the middle aged Labour voters from some of the less affluent parts of the UK, while younger voters are more likely to have voted remain regardless of which party they support (although Conservative support among under 35s is falling to record lows.)

* One reason why Corbynite Dan Carden ended up being given the Liverpool Walton seat to contest.
 
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mmh

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Really? Lancashire County Council is under the control of the Conservatives while its' MPs include Conservatives Nigel Evans, Paul Maynard, Ben Wallace, Mark Menzies, David Morris, Andrew Stephenson, Jake Berry and Seema Kennedy. The former Lancashire cities of Liverpool and Manchester (both areas which voted remain) are some of the safest Labour areas in the country* - present day Lancashire is very mixed.

Hmm, Lancashire was a bad example then, my apologies. I think perhaps I was picturing the outer bits of Merseyside and Greater Manchester as "Lancashire". I was lumping Liverpool and Manchester themselves in with the exceptional cities. I think the point stands though.

While a presumption that Labour voters voted remain and Conservative voters voted leave is wrong, there are certain groups which are more likely to have voted leave or remain. For example, the older richer Conservative voters are more likely to have voted leave and the same is true of the middle aged Labour voters from some of the less affluent parts of the UK, while younger voters are more likely to have voted remain regardless of which party they support (although Conservative support among under 35s is falling to record lows.)

I partly agree, but in my anecdotal experience it's demographic based rather than party allegiance, although I do agree it's certainly true that younger voters are more likely to have voted remain (brainwashing at school does happen - it did to me). I'm not sure that's true for older people - both the Conservative and Labour parties have always been split on the issue, the Tories are just more ferociously and vocally split historically.
 

pemma

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I partly agree, but in my anecdotal experience it's demographic based rather than party allegiance, although I do agree it's certainly true that younger voters are more likely to have voted remain (brainwashing at school does happen - it did to me).

Young voters are probably more independently minded now then they have ever been before. They choose what they think is the best option, not what someone else tells them is the best option. The number of young Labour voters who grew up in Conservative supporting households isn't low.

My Gran (who wasn't still alive at the time of the last EU referendum) used to buy the Daily Mail on Saturdays (because she claimed it was the most cost effective way of getting a TV guide for the week!) She never traveled abroad and certainly would never have been interested in working abroad but certainly needed NHS services, so had she still been alive she potentially could have been brainwashed by the extra money for the NHS claim and wouldn't have seen the disadvantages to travel, which the younger people would see as directly affecting them.

I'm not sure that's true for older people

Perhaps I should have said middle aged and older voters from the poorest parts of the UK.
 

mmh

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Young voters are probably more independently minded now then they have ever been before. They choose what they think is the best option, not what someone else tells them is the best option. The number of young Labour voters who grew up in Conservative supporting households isn't low.

That's always been the case though, re: Labour supporting young people. I can't agree with the idea that young prople are more independently minded than ever, they've grown up with the internet and social media and crowd mentality - older people didn't have quite as much when they did (it did exist of course, but in different ways and far less of it)

My Gran (who wasn't still alive at the time of the last EU referendum) used to buy the Daily Mail on Saturdays (because she claimed it was the most cost effective way of getting a TV guide for the week!) She never traveled abroad and certainly would never have been interested in working abroad but certainly needed NHS services, so had she still been alive she potentially could have been brainwashed by the extra money for the NHS claim and wouldn't have seen the disadvantages to travel, which the younger people would see as directly affecting them.

It's still true that the Daily Mail has a very good weekly TV guide! In fact, the Daily Mail is probably the best designed of all the newspapers - regardless of the standpoints, it's very well put together and isn't successful by accident. I'll probably disagree with 95% of their views and I'd never buy it myself though.
 

Howardh

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It's still true that the Daily Mail has a very good weekly TV guide! .
I suppose one could go to the newsagents, buy the copy, take the TV guide and leave the rest of the paper behind!!

I will always give praise where it's due - and the Mail has a good money supplement on Wednesdays, but of course it's available for free on the web which is updated daily.
 

pemma

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I suppose one could go to the newsagents, buy the copy, take the TV guide and leave the rest of the paper behind!!

I will always give praise where it's due - and the Mail has a good money supplement on Wednesdays, but of course it's available for free on the web which is updated daily.

I recall Dave Gorman's Life Is Goodish covering the former WH Smith station offer whereby it was cheaper to get a bottle of water free with a copy of The Telegraph than to buy a bottle of water. Dave said he asked if he could pay for The Telegraph, take the bottle of water but leave The Telegraph in the shop, which they could then sell to someone else, but the assistant said no.
 

EM2

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What was that about undemocratic institutions?
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...y-peers-in-attempt-to-overcome-brexit-defeats
Theresa May is expected to approve the creation of about 10 Conservative peers and at least one for the Democratic Unionist party, perhaps as early as Friday, in an attempt to improve her position in the House of Lords, which has voted 15 times against her government over Brexit.

The elevations were immediately criticised by the high-profile remain Labour peer Lord Adonis as a desperate attempt by the prime minister to enlist people to help her against in the unelected upper house.

Tories tipped for elevation include former ministers Sir Eric Pickles and Peter Lilley. Adonis said: “This is a classic example of packing the Lords to try and make Brexit easier to endorse.”

May’s spokeswoman gave no comment on the speculation, saying: “Any announcements of that nature will be made in the usual way.”

A report last year recommended the Lords should be reduced in size by a quarter, which is backed by May, though this does not preclude the creation of new peers. May’s spokeswoman said: “She has been clear that there should be restraint on new appointments, combined with an increased cross-party takeup of retirements.”
 

mmh

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EM2

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Well yes, the Lords is an undemocratic institution, and adding filling it with your backers and supporters is undemocratic too. The real solution is to reform it to make it democratic, but short of that happening...
So...if there's an institution that you think is undemocratic and should be reformed, is it best to do that while having influence within it, and or to walk away from it and have no influence on it at all, or on how it affects you in the future?
It's a toughie, and no mistake...
 

pemma

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Well yes, the Lords is an undemocratic institution, and adding filling it with your backers and supporters is undemocratic too. The real solution is to reform it to make it democratic, but short of that happening...

As an aside, I really hate the over-use of "clear" in modern politician speak. Let me be clear, it really grates on me.

House of Lords reform was in the Conservative-Lib Dem Coalition agreement but some Tory back benchers blocked it. David Cameron promised to look at it again in the 2015-2020 period if the Conservatives won the 2015 election, but Theresa May effectively scrapped that any most of Cameron's other promises by calling a 2017 election and unveiling a brand new manifesto, which promised very little except for delivering on Brexit.
 

Bromley boy

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So...if there's an institution that you think is undemocratic and should be reformed, is it best to do that while having influence within it, and or to walk away from it and have no influence on it at all, or on how it affects you in the future?
It's a toughie, and no mistake...

If said institution has previously proved to be self serving, intransigent and utterly resistant to change, bleeding you dry all the while, there comes a point when it’s best to walk away.

(As I typed that it dawned on me that I could equally be talking about the EU, or a couple of my ex girlfriends).

Either way, the principle is the same!
 

AM9

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Dear me, that cliche, it's rabid racists and far right-wingers who voted leave.

I'm not sure what you mean there but, maybe if I highlight what I said it might help prevent your misunderstanding of the sentence:

"You will of course have seen the emoticon there? However, for some leave voters, England First's agenda is just a logical progression from that of UKIP (as in logical agenda) so 'if the cap fits they can wear it' (so to speak)."

In fact, many of the safest Labour areas in the country voted leave, for example Hull, Doncaster, the South Wales valleys, Lancashire.

So what?

The ballot didn't ask what your political viewpoint was, so any supposition that Labour == Remain, Tory == Leave etc is just guesswork or based on dubious opinion polls (why anyone takes much notice of them any more is a mystery)

Where have I implied that Labour == Remain, Tory == Leave? There are many strong socialists who voted to leave (including some of the Labour MPs) and plenty of Conservatives who voted to remain (includiung a majority of the Conservative government).

There's one thing you can confidently guess - yes, UKIP voters probably did vote Leave, and one thing you can tell from the results by region - the vast majority of the country by areas voted Leave other than a handful of mostly city areas (and Scotland, who in 2016 were still completely SNP brainwashed), and the large electorates in some of those resulted in a result closer than it otherwise would have been.

I wouldn't say that either side of the referendum brainwashed voters, but many didn't know what they were voting for or whether (or how) it could be delivered from the information that was given out.
 

Bromley boy

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"You will of course have seen the emoticon there? However, for some leave voters, England First's agenda is just a logical progression from that of UKIP (as in logical agenda) so 'if the cap fits they can wear it' (so to speak)."

I don’t think that follows at all, and is a rather silly statement.

It’s like saying the “logical progression” of being right of centre is being in the National Front, or that being left of centre logically progresses to being a communist.

It might for a *very* few, but is patently untrue for the overwhelming majority in either camp. So it’s essentially a meaningless statement.
 

Senex

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Well yes, the Lords is an undemocratic institution, and adding filling it with your backers and supporters is undemocratic too. The real solution is to reform it to make it democratic, but short of that happening...
Totally undemocratic, totally at the whim of prime ministers abusing the appointments system, as predicted to happen yet again ... And yet at the moment it's this unelected house that offers the only real representation of the interests of the nearly half of us who were on the losing side in the referendum. Our so-called elected representative are doing hardly anything to represent us, and "Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition", far from opposing, is doing asmuch as it can to help the Brexiteer government along. One hates to have to say it, but just at the moment, thank God for the House of Lords!
 

WelshBluebird

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If said institution has previously proved to be self serving, intransigent and utterly resistant to change, bleeding you dry all the while, there comes a point when it’s best to walk away.

That sounds like the Tory party to me!
How on earth has the EU been "bleeding us dry" when it has actually been investing heavily in parts of the country that desperately needed it? Remembering these are areas that simply do not and would not get the investment needed from Westminster.
 

AM9

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I don’t think that follows at all, and is a rather silly statement.

It’s like saying the “logical progression” of being right of centre is being in the National Front, or that being left of centre logically progresses to being a communist.

It might for a *very* few, but is patently untrue for the overwhelming majority in either camp. So it’s essentially a meaningless statement.

So you don't really understand the word 'some'? I go by the english dictionaries which all seem to say "some: - an unspecified number or amount of". Your interpretation may be different in quantative terms but the meaning is the same so I'll leave it at that.
 

pemma

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That sounds like the Tory party to me!
How on earth has the EU been "bleeding us dry" when it has actually been investing heavily in parts of the country that desperately needed it? Remembering these are areas that simply do not and would not get the investment needed from Westminster.

Saying the EU is bleeding us dry is like saying your broadband operator bleeds you dry as some months you don't use that much data, even though other months you watch a movie online most nights.

It also seems because we're leaving the EU we are either too scared to ask them for anything now or don't have the time to make the requests. Manchester still needs more money following the arena bombing last year and that's certainly something the EU would pay out for.
 

Bromley boy

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That sounds like the Tory party to me!
How on earth has the EU been "bleeding us dry" when it has actually been investing heavily in parts of the country that desperately needed it? Remembering these are areas that simply do not and would not get the investment needed from Westminster.

Well, if you don’t agree with the Tories, at least you are at liberty to vote accordingly.

The U.K. is a net contributor to the EU’s coffers. I’d far rather investment decisions be taken locally (within the U.K.).

So you don't really understand the word 'some'? I go by the english dictionaries which all seem to say "some: - an unspecified number or amount of". Your interpretation may be different in quantative terms but the meaning is the same so I'll leave it at that.

If you really want to bandy words, “some” people are struck by lightning, “some” people win the lottery, etc. But in either case an infinitesimal proportion of the total.

You stated certain extreme views were a “logical progression” for those who subscribe to mainstream political thinking - a silly statement, which is patently untrue.
 
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HSTEd

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That sounds like the Tory party to me!
How on earth has the EU been "bleeding us dry" when it has actually been investing heavily in parts of the country that desperately needed it? Remembering these are areas that simply do not and would not get the investment needed from Westminster.

Why wouldn't they?
Westminster is not some inherently evil monstrosity that cackles as Cornwall crumbles.

If Cornwall elected MPs that cared, they would get something.
 

mmh

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So...if there's an institution that you think is undemocratic and should be reformed, is it best to do that while having influence within it, and or to walk away from it and have no influence on it at all, or on how it affects you in the future?
It's a toughie, and no mistake...

Not tough in the slightest. I do think it's undemocratic. I also think we have no genuine influence to make it more democratic, and that some of its fundamental positions and policies are not beneficial to Britain and are unchangeable. Freedom of movement of labour for example is not going to go away. Therefore the only alternative is to leave it.
 

EM2

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And so it came to pass...
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/997506580869472256
New peerages announced including peerage for Theresa May's friend Catherine Meyer.
Ddfa25wU0AgwlzU.jpg


(Image shows text conferring peerages on numerous persons, including Eric Pickles, Amanda Sater, William McCrea, Peter Lilley and others).
 

Senex

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So there it is, just when the BBC is devoting almost the whole of its news coverage to the Windsor wedding and the newspapers are going daft over the same. Getting this disgraceful news out when eyes are turned elsewhere, in typical politican fashion. (As for that BBC coverage, when we've seen serious journalists sent to Windsor and expected to fawn over all things "royal", how are we expected to take those people's coverage of serious matters seriously ever again?)
 

Bromley boy

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Then with respect you have indeed missed the point of the question I asked you.

I wasn’t comparing the outcomes (which are irrelevant), I was making the point that neither referenda was legally binding and that it is inconsistent to suggest (as you did upthread) that the outcome of the 2016 referendum should not be implemented when the 1970s vote was.



Please can you answer it now?

@jcollins, just a polite reminder that I’m still awaiting a sensible answer to my question. A question you previously misunderstood.

I suspect I’ll be waiting a long while.
 

pemma

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@jcollins, just a polite reminder that I’m still awaiting a sensible answer to my question. A question you previously misunderstood.

I suspect I’ll be waiting a long while.

Yes you will as I have repeatedly responsed asking you to tell me exactly how the campaigning for the 1970s referendum was conducted and you keep refusing. If I don't know what's similar and what's different how can I possibly compare the two? Argue all you want that misleading campaigning didn't affect how people voted but many people say claims made did affect the way they voted.
 

Bromley boy

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Yes you will as I have repeatedly responsed asking you to tell me exactly how the campaigning for the 1970s referendum was conducted and you keep refusing. If I don't know what's similar and what's different how can I possibly compare the two? Argue all you want that misleading campaigning didn't affect how people voted but many people say claims made did affect the way they voted.

In which case you still misunderstand the question I asked you.

Let’s just leave it there.
 

pemma

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In which case you still misunderstand the question I asked you.

Let’s just leave it there.

No. I understand the question you asked perfectly, you just can't understand that my opinion on whether we should implement a referendum result depends on how the referendum and the campaigning relating to the referendum was conducted, not just the result. I strongly believe politicians mustn't be allowed to mislead the public and then ask the public for their opinion in a referendum.
 

fowler9

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Sorry if this has been asked before but does anyone else think we should have held off leaving the EU until we had some kind of clue what we would do when we did? The country isn't just divided on leave or remain, the leavers themselves are divided. As part of the liberal elite who wanted to remain I am not comfortable with commoners like Jacob Rees-Mogg, Alexander Boris De Pfeffel Johnson and Micheal Pob Gove pulling the strings.
 

Domh245

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Sorry if this has been asked before but does anyone else think we should have held off leaving the EU until we had some kind of clue what we would do when we did? The country isn't just divided on leave or remain, the leavers themselves are divided. As part of the liberal elite who wanted to remain I am not comfortable with commoners like Jacob Rees-Mogg, Alexander Boris De Pfeffel Johnson and Micheal Pob Gove pulling the strings.

Definitely agree. If we were doing the referendum properly, we'd have negotiated the terms on which we would leave (or the outline of it at least, in terms of borders, future trade, etc) and then put that to the voters. Asking us to vote on the open ended question that we did (coupled with the incompetence of anyone in any position of power) has left us divided and somewhat clueless.
 

Bromley boy

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Definitely agree. If we were doing the referendum properly, we'd have negotiated the terms on which we would leave (or the outline of it at least, in terms of borders, future trade, etc) and then put that to the voters. Asking us to vote on the open ended question that we did (coupled with the incompetence of anyone in any position of power) has left us divided and somewhat clueless.

That would have been impossible.

How could the U.K. government possibly negotiate leaving terms with the EU without having the political mandate to leave in the first place?
 

Bromley boy

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Sorry if this has been asked before but does anyone else think we should have held off leaving the EU until we had some kind of clue what we would do when we did? The country isn't just divided on leave or remain, the leavers themselves are divided. As part of the liberal elite who wanted to remain I am not comfortable with commoners like Jacob Rees-Mogg, Alexander Boris De Pfeffel Johnson and Micheal Pob Gove pulling the strings.

No.

The broad-brush decision to leave has (quite rightly) been taken by popular vote, as is appropriate for an issue of major constitutional reform.

It’s now down to the government to implement that. The terms under which we leave are far too complex and nuanced an issue to put to another plebiscite vote.
 
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