EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[fowler9]

No.

The broad-brush decision to leave has (quite rightly) been taken by popular vote, as is appropriate for an issue of major constitutional reform.

It’s now down to the government to implement that. The terms under which we leave are far too complex and nuanced an issue to put to another plebiscite vote.

I never asked for another vote. I kind of said it was idiotic to do things the way we have. We are going to end up with worse trade deals than we already had and who knows what the hell will happen with the Irish border.

The referendum has been like asking Homer Simpson to design a car.

 

[EM2]

How could the U.K. government possibly negotiate leaving terms with the EU without having the political mandate to leave in the first place?

They didn't have to. But they could have least outlined the relationship that they would like to have afterwards.

 

[EM2]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...-theresa-may-hit-by-brexit-deadlock-3ppzg9l3r
Tory MPs prepare for snap autumn election as Theresa May hit by Brexit deadlock

Conservative MPs are preparing for another snap general election as they fear the Brexit deadlock will become insurmountable for the prime minister.

Some have spoken to their local party associations asking to be readopted as prospective parliamentary candidates in readiness for an autumn election.

The back-bench MPs acted after meeting Theresa May last week for a private Brexit briefing as she tried to stop a row over Britain’s future customs relationship with the European Union tearing the party apart.

But far from being reassured by meeting the prime minister, they left Downing Street convinced that another election could be around the corner.

I'm afraid the rest of the article is paywalled.

 

[Bromley boy]

No. I understand the question you asked perfectly, you just can't understand that my opinion on whether we should implement a referendum result depends on how the referendum and the campaigning relating to the referendum was conducted, not just the result. I strongly believe politicians mustn't be allowed to mislead the public and then ask the public for their opinion in a referendum.

The question I asked you was why you believe it would be acceptable for one non binding vote to be implemented (70s), but also apparently believe it acceptable for the 2016 vote to be disregarded. It seems to me the only difference is that you agree with the result of the first vote but not the second. That seems inconsistent to me.

Also remember that the 2016 political establishment was firmly in favour of remaining - the PM at the time and the current PM were both remainers. The remain camp told as many lies as the leave camp.

And so it goes on - I suspect you and I will never agree on this issue. Let’s declare a truce on that basis .

 

[Bromley boy]

They didn't have to. But they could have least outlined the relationship that they would like to have afterwards.

They did. A leave vote = a clean break from the EU.

That position was made abundantly clear by the remain camp. Leaving = leaving the EU and it’s major institutions, including the common market and the customs union.

So that’s precisely what the public voted for.

 

[cactustwirly]

The question I asked you was why you believe it would be acceptable for one non binding vote to be implemented (70s), but also apparently believe it acceptable for the 2016 vote to be disregarded. It seems to me the only difference is that you agree with the result of the first vote but not the second. That seems inconsistent to me.

Also remember that the 2016 political establishment was firmly in favour of remaining - the PM at the time and the current PM were both remainers. The remain camp told as many lies as the leave camp.

And so it goes on - I suspect you and I will never agree on this issue. Let’s declare a truce on that basis .

But the remain camp didn't break electoral laws by massively overspending or colluding with other campaign groups.

I'm not convinced that the remain camp told as many lies.
They were just incorrect projections, which came from reputable sources.

 

[EM2]

They did. A leave vote = a clean break from the EU.

That position was made abundantly clear by the remain camp. Leaving = leaving the EU and it’s major institutions, including the common market and the customs union.

So that’s precisely what the public voted for.

So why haven't we done that then?

 

[Bromley boy]

I'm not convinced that the remain camp told as many lies.
They were just incorrect projections, which came from reputable sources.

Potatoe-potada, tomato-tomata.

 

[cactustwirly]

They did. A leave vote = a clean break from the EU.

That position was made abundantly clear by the remain camp. Leaving = leaving the EU and it’s major institutions, including the common market and the customs union.

So that’s precisely what the public voted for.

That's what you want, but we don't know what the majority of the country wants.
I've spoken to some leave voters, and they want to remain in the single market.

 

[fowler9]

They did. A leave vote = a clean break from the EU.

That position was made abundantly clear by the remain camp. Leaving = leaving the EU and it’s major institutions, including the common market and the customs union.

So that’s precisely what the public voted for.

No it wasn't. Even Farage said all kinds of options were on the table such as the Norway one. I'll repeat it again, it was like getting Homer Simpson to design a car.

 

[Bromley boy]

That's what you want, but we don't know what the majority of the country wants.
I've spoken to some leave voters, and they want to remain in the single market.

They’re unusual then - why leave but keep a seat at the table?

A “hard” Brexit is the only logical conclusion of a leave vote in my view.

No it wasn't. Even Farage said all kinds of options were on the table such as the Norway one. I'll repeat it again, it was like getting Homer Simpson to design a car.

To be fair, Homer Simpson had a job in a nuclear power plant, so can’t have been completely stupid.

And even if he was, we are currently living a Simpsons-style version of reality that includes Donald Trump being president of the US.

So I reckon anything goes!

 

[pemma]

The question I asked you was why you believe it would be acceptable for one non binding vote to be implemented (70s), but also apparently believe it acceptable for the 2016 vote to be disregarded. It seems to me the only difference is that you agree with the result of the first vote but not the second. That seems inconsistent to me.

Also remember that the 2016 political establishment was firmly in favour of remaining - the PM at the time and the current PM were both remainers. The remain camp told as many lies as the leave camp.

And so it goes on - I suspect you and I will never agree on this issue. Let’s declare a truce on that basis .

I'm happy for the government to act on any public referendum where the public have been properly informed of the options and the campaigning has been conducted professionally. However, in the case of a close result caution needs to be taken if the situation changes between the result and the result being acted on. Consequently, in the circumstances I don't think the EU referendum result should have been acted on without a huge majority e.g. 75% and even if the campaigning wasn't misleading and 52% voted remain I think another referendum would have been needed at some point if there was a significant change to our EU membership. I'm not saying anything I haven't said previously there but that is a more than sufficient answer to your question, especially as you repeatedly ignored my questions regarding how the 1970s referendum was contacted but asked for my opinion on it!

 

[radamfi]

This prominent anti-EU blog has long supported remaining in the single market and keeping freedom of movement

http://eureferendum.com/

 

[fowler9]

I moved desks last Monday. My new neighbour was off. When she came in on Tuesday it turned out she had been to London for the first time. She was terrified because of all the foreigners, brown people and women in veils. She thought she would be blown up. Later in the day I had an article on my screen about Brexit and the Irish Border. She asked me how I voted, she told me she voted leave and was glad after going to London. She was annoyed that people who voted leave got accused of being racist though. This was despite earlier saying she didn't like all the blacks in London (She actually said that). I'm not sure what she thinks a racist is. Perhaps you have to have a shaved head and a uniform with a totenkopf on it. Not everyone who voted leave is a racist, everyone who is a racist voted leave though.

 

[Domh245]

That would have been impossible.

How could the U.K. government possibly negotiate leaving terms with the EU without having the political mandate to leave in the first place?

It didn't have to negotiate proper terms, it would have only needed to get rough ideas for what is/isn't possible, for example, would the EU be willing to accept technological solutions (as yet uninvented) to solve the NI border issue, how much of a 'divorce payment' would they be looking for, what sort of post-brexit trade deal would they be looking to implement -and then put that to a vote. As it was, you had one very clear choice with Remain (staying in with the caveats Cameron had managed to wrangle from the EU) vs the Leave campaigns which promised anything and everything under the sun.

As it was, the referendum was more of a "Remain" vs "Don't Remain" rather than "Remain" vs "Leave"

 

[pemma]

They’re unusual then - why leave but keep a seat at the table?

A “hard” Brexit is the only logical conclusion of a leave vote in my view.



To be fair, Homer Simpson had a job in a nuclear power plant, so can’t have been completely stupid.

And even if he was, we are currently living a Simpsons-style version of reality that includes Donald Trump being president of the US.

So I reckon anything goes!

Did you see the episode where Homer sold all the nuclear power secrets he knew to China and the Chinese built a power plant only for it to blow up when the ribbon was being cut?

I prefer comparing present day America to the TV series 24. David Palmer is similar to Barrack Obama while Charles Logan should never have been president - hello Donald Trump.

 

[EM2]

She was terrified because of all the foreigners, brown people and women in veils.

How long has she been in Liverpool?!

 

[pemma]

How long has she been in Liverpool?!

The same Liverpool that was one of the first cities many immigrants from China and India arrived in?

 

[Bromley boy]

Did you see the episode where Homer sold all the nuclear power secrets he knew to China and the Chinese built a power plant only for it to blow up when the ribbon was being cut?

Yes indeed.

Substitute “EU” for “China” and there are enormous similarities.

I prefer comparing present day America to the TV series 24. David Palmer is similar to Barrack Obama while Charles Logan should never have been president - hello Donald Trump.

I’ve never watched it I’m afraid so couldn’t possibly comment.

 

[Bromley boy]

I moved desks last Monday. My new neighbour was off. When she came in on Tuesday it turned out she had been to London for the first time. She was terrified because of all the foreigners, brown people and women in veils. She thought she would be blown up. Later in the day I had an article on my screen about Brexit and the Irish Border. She asked me how I voted, she told me she voted leave and was glad after going to London. She was annoyed that people who voted leave got accused of being racist though. This was despite earlier saying she didn't like all the blacks in London (She actually said that). I'm not sure what she thinks a racist is. Perhaps you have to have a shaved head and a uniform with a totenkopf on it. Not everyone who voted leave is a racist, everyone who is a racist voted leave though.

Lots to unpack in the above statement.

Don’t assume all leave voters are the same. I’m sorry to say I know quite a few remain voters who are racist in the truest, white supremacist, sense. They voted remain because they were frightened of house prices dropping.

And also, please don’t conflate racism with criticism of a very patriarchal and backward religion. I’m not sure women wearing veils is the way this country should be going.

 

[furnessvale]

They didn't have to. But they could have least outlined the relationship that they would like to have afterwards.

Isn't that what Cameron tried to do BEFORE the referendum. That went well didn't it.

 

[furnessvale]

So why haven't we done that then?

First, appoint a remainer as PM to lead the negotiations. The rest follows naturally.

 

[EM2]

Isn't that what Cameron tried to do BEFORE the referendum. That went well didn't it.

No it isn't. Because he didn't expect to lose. But he should have had some sort of plan ready, just in case he did.

 

[EM2]

First, appoint a remainer as PM to lead the negotiations. The rest follows naturally.

The PM wasn't 'appointed'. She won a leadership contest.

 

[Bromley boy]

First, appoint a remainer as PM to lead the negotiations. The rest follows naturally.

Indeed. Ironic, isn’t it!?

Let’s hope and pray she sticks to her guns and delivers the Brexit we leave voters were asking for.

 

[EM2]

Indeed. Ironic, isn’t it!?

Let’s hope and pray she sticks to her guns and delivers the Brexit we leave voters were asking for.

The Conservative party couldn't even find someone to lead it that believes in what they're supposed to deliver. How are the rest of the country expected to respect anything that they do?

 

[hexagon789]

The Conservative party couldn't even find someone to lead it that believes in what they're supposed to deliver. How are the rest of the country expected to respect anything that they do?

Well they did, but she dropped out of the race.

 

[Bromley boy]

The Conservative party couldn't even find someone to lead it that believes in what they're supposed to deliver. How are the rest of the country expected to respect anything that they do?

I must have misunderstood the Labour Party’s viewpoint on Brexit then.

The party is (kind of) pro-remain but their leader is so anti Europe that he voted leave back in the 1970s...

Maybe you can clarify it for me?

EDIT: add a generous dollop of antisemitism in the mix. Yet we are told the Labour party isn’t racist.

Riddle me that... and maybe then I’ll vote Labour.

 

[Bromley boy]

Well they did, but she dropped out of the race.

Maggie Thatcher died years ago, sadly.

 

[hexagon789]

Maggie Thatcher died years ago, sadly.

Not Maggie; I was referring to May's contender for PM and leader of the Tories.