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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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Howardh

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The military bases on Cyprus is an interesting point; if the EU did have what Brexiters threatened - it's own army; then would they ask us kindly to remove our bases on Cyprus, and should we?
Frankly - and this is the Brexit point - I want them to stay as I like the though of having bits of territory all over the place, but they are very expensive to maintain and we should defend ourselves as part of NATO so I'll say they should go; and the saving used to fund the NHS. Maybe the EU could buy them off us??
 
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WelshBluebird

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Common sense. Why would that happen? It would be in noone's interest and would be a glaring anomaly.

If we walk away from the negotiations with "no deal" as quite a few brexiteers have suggested we should, then by the very definition of those words, there would be no deal in place for frictionless travel between the UK and the EU, and so you would default to needing Visas etc.

Of course, that is not likely. But those threatening no deal, or saying no deal would be better than a bad deal, really should realise what they are saying.
 

AlterEgo

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I'm absolutely disgusted by your aggressive and insensitive stance throughout this thread. You see agony and want to make it worse by sticking in the knife even further.

I think you should be more mature, and stop seeking attention; I feel this would be beneficial for you.

I do not care about your personal agonies any more than I would expect you to care about mine, and I don't appreciate your implication that I should care.

I will continue to discuss Brexit in this thread and continue to post things you probably don't like.
 

AlterEgo

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Yes, it's either an open border or risking meltdown as we had in the 70's/ 80's.
Other than remaining in a virtual EU (Brexit In All But Name) what's your solution?

Please not again..

Brexit is going to be bad for Ireland, bad for Northern Ireland, the arrangements that come out of it will likely contravene the Good Friday Agreement, and border areas will suffer, but...

To claim however that the Troubles are at risk of coming back (like they were in the 1970s and 1980s) is just wrong, and fearmongering. It's also (unintentionally) patronising to people who live there. Almost nobody of any persuasion wants the conflict back. Almost none of the factors which precipitated and prolonged the Troubles are present today.
 

AlterEgo

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The military bases on Cyprus is an interesting point; if the EU did have what Brexiters threatened - it's own army; then would they ask us kindly to remove our bases on Cyprus, and should we?

I very much doubt they would ask and doubt even further that Britain would agree to such a request. Cyprus in particular is of tremendous importance to British defence because of its geographical location.
 

radamfi

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I think you should be more mature, and stop seeking attention; I feel this would be beneficial for you.

I do not care about your personal agonies any more than I would expect you to care about mine, and I don't appreciate your implication that I should care.

I will continue to discuss Brexit in this thread and continue to post things you probably don't like.

If you weren't intending to be personal and be deliberately hurtful, why rake that up?
 

Howardh

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I very much doubt they would ask and doubt even further that Britain would agree to such a request. Cyprus in particular is of tremendous importance to British defence because of its geographical location.
...as is Gibraltar!!
I rest my case m'lud!!
It's unfortunate that discussing the renewal of the troubles is "fearmongering" - however I don't think all the Irish will necessarily be pleased to have a hard border instaled across *their* land. I'd like to be wrong, but history dictates otherwise, and we have the Good Friday Agreement for a reason. But if we can all agree to do whetever is necessary to keep the border open?

Meanwhile a geographical and plotical issue if there is no deal and the border has to be hard including passport and goods checks - what happens to those living in the Irish exclave? For those unaware, it's a few acres of about 20 dwellings belonging to the Republic yet almost wholly within the UK. To go to school, the shops, work etc in their own country they HAVE to go through the UK - it's unavoidable unless they are good at paddling. One trip to the newsagent could result in four sets of customs/immigration checks (two out, two back).

Should the border be hardened, has anyone a solution to their specific difficulties? If we go down the ETIAD route will they require one to enter the Republic as they have to go through the UK even though they are Irish and belong to the EU?
 

AlterEgo

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If you weren't intending to be personal and be deliberately hurtful, why rake that up?

I wasn't being personal because I did not name you and you had not even posted recently, so it could not have been construed as a reply to you.

My post you quoted was in direct response to a poster who claimed that literally nobody was claiming to be imprisoned in Britain - well, a poster had said that, more than once, in this thread in the past. Other posters have implied that travel will become so difficult it may not be worthwhile.

I don't set out to deliberately cause offence but make no apology for giving my thoughts on a public forum, which for the avoidance of doubt are summarised thus:

- I didn't vote for Brexit

- I don't think it's that good an idea

- It makes us look like stroppy neighbours

- It will hurt my own family

- It may result in a net benefit or net loss for me personally (who knows?)

- The referendum was bonkers

- The idea of a second, even more so

- Brexit is a white working class rebellion against what they perceive to be smug prats in the metropolitan elite

- Remainers are not victims now

- Leavers were not victims before the referendum

- I was shocked Leave won but now understand why

- I have changed my position on Leave voters, from derision to acceptance of their opinion based on their actual experiences

- I have learned that what people experience and feel daily is more important than fact or expert opinion

- Nobody in the government, let alone this thread, is in a position to offer informed comment on what Brexit actually means

- I'm alternately amused and annoyed by constant fearmongering in public discourse (not necessarily speaking about this thread), especially from people who would have decried fearmongering from the Leave side prior to the vote

- Nobody gets to say my experiences or opinions are invalid, as I have thought deeply about them and been willing to adjust them over time
 

EM2

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To claim however that the Troubles are at risk of coming back (like they were in the 1970s and 1980s) is just wrong, and fearmongering. It's also (unintentionally) patronising to people who live there.
But it is what they fear will happen.
https://www.irishcentral.com/opinio...thern-ireland-if-brexit-creates-a-hard-border
It is not just a matter of geography. Aside from the Democratic Unionist Party, there are no votes in Ireland for a British border. Trying to police such a border in any way, taxing goods, inspecting lorries, sending electronic waivers, is an assertion of foreign British rule against the will of the vast majority of the Irish people. A perfect opening for those who would prefer to bomb rather than argue about border controls.

The legacy of 800 years of British rule in Ireland—genocide, famine, wars, outrages and troubles—is written in word, stone and memory but not indeed since the 1998 Good Friday Agreement. Those long dark centuries teach us all that British rule in Ireland cannot be maintained in peace without the acquiescence of the Irish Government and the Irish people.

It is a lesson that the current British Conservative Government seems determined to ignore and it will just as surely as the sun rises daily in the East re-engender war in Ireland.
 

mmh

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To defend an indefensible border, Northern Ireland's PSNI police force will again become a frontline paramilitary force, armed defenders of the realm against Irish rebels, in borderlands even the British Army deemed too dangerous to patrol. There will be landmine attacks, more bombings, outrages, troubles. The war will escalate.

That's hardly a balanced, unbiased take then. I think attributing an article which happens to share your apocalyptic opinion (hope?) to "they" is stretching it a bit.
 

AlterEgo

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...as is Gibraltar!!
I rest my case m'lud!!

No it isn't.

Gibraltar is significantly less strategically important than Cyprus. It does not have the military signals capacity to reach our enemies, who are not located in that part of the world anyway, it is not a significant naval base, it is not capable of reliably landing anything larger than an A320 (totally unsuited as a staging post, unlike say, Asencion or Akrotiri or Diego Garcia).

It is today largely a military backwater, and should Britain give it away (which I don't agree with anyway!) it would not much affect the ability for Britain to deploy military power worldwide. Cyprus is a whole other kettle of fish and is by some distance our most important overseas base.


It's unfortunate that discussing the renewal of the troubles is "fearmongering" - however I don't think all the Irish will necessarily be pleased to have a hard border instaled across *their* land.

Yes, it is fearmongering and patronising to suggest the Troubles are returning. Basically the implication is "Irish not pleased about something England does = bombs". I would really like for the Irish conflict to be taught in British schools so people can understand it properly. I can't blame most English people for their ignorance of a conflict which is not taught in school, but honestly - please educate yourself on the history of Irish republicanism, the current state of paramilitary groups in Ireland, Northern Irish public opinion on past and present conflict, and why the last iteration of the Troubles (68-98) actually happened.

I'd like to be wrong, but history dictates otherwise

History does not dictate anything, and respectfully, I don't think you are particularly informed about Irish history.

and we have the Good Friday Agreement for a reason.

*rubs temples*

The Good Friday Agreement is basically a treaty which ensures Northern Ireland is governed by its own people in a fair and equitable manner. It enshrines the civic rights that were denied to a significant minority of the population over history, in writing. It ensures that Britain retains sovereignty unless a dual Irish referendum indicates to the Secretary of State otherwise. it gives people equal parity between Irish or British identity, and reaffirms that it is perfectly okay to be either, both, or neither. It ensures that paramilitary groups decommissioned their weapons and enshrined the Mitchell Principles as the future of the province's government. It ensures that the Republic has some contribution towards the affairs of Northern Ireland, yet not sovereignty. It ensured the police force - which routinely abused the human rights of many people, especially children - was subject to a review (the police force ended up being formally abolished and reformed). At a macro-level, it basically washed away the last vestiges of Northern Ireland being a Protestant-dominated statelet where Catholics were either directly or indirectly discriminated against, and moved it towards being a proper democracy (that journey is of course far from complete), based on consensus and sharing power.

Almost none of the complex myriad of conditions that precipitated the Troubles are present today and I challenge you to show me otherwise.

Nobody who studies this kind of thing would suggest the Troubles are coming back, and certainly not in the way you describe (70s/80s style).

But if we can all agree to do whetever is necessary to keep the border open?

We should be hoping for, and working towards a frictionless border with limited infrastructure. This will be to the benefit of everyone.

Meanwhile a geographical and plotical issue if there is no deal and the border has to be hard including passport and goods checks - what happens to those living in the Irish exclave? For those unaware, it's a few acres of about 20 dwellings belonging to the Republic yet almost wholly within the UK. To go to school, the shops, work etc in their own country they HAVE to go through the UK - it's unavoidable unless they are good at paddling. One trip to the newsagent could result in four sets of customs/immigration checks (two out, two back).

Should the border be hardened, has anyone a solution to their specific difficulties? If we go down the ETIAD route will they require one to enter the Republic as they have to go through the UK even though they are Irish and belong to the EU?

I think this is the pene-exclave known as Coleman's Island.

I don't see why an ETIAD would pose a specific problem here, or why an exception couldn't be made.
 

EM2

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That's hardly a balanced, unbiased take then. I think attributing an article which happens to share your apocalyptic opinion (hope?) to "they" is stretching it a bit.
OK, what about my family who live eight miles from the border? They already know of a few local 'faces' that are getting ready to throw their weight around. Think of it like 1980s football thugs who like to have a tear-up now and again, but worse.
 

WelshBluebird

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We should be hoping for, and working towards a frictionless border with limited infrastructure. This will be to the benefit of everyone.

But is that what is being worked towards?
Based on what the government (or at least the Brexiteers) want, that just is not going to happen.
 

AlterEgo

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No it is not, and finding a single article by one person saying "dissidents may bomb border checkpoints etc" is not evidence of a fear that "Irish people" have that the Troubles are returning. Pretty much nobody thinks that. Irish Central is not a serious news site and is aimed at the American market with viral and clickbait articles stuffed with ads. It is based in New York. Tell you what - go on Slugger O'Toole, probably the leading non-partisan blog about Irish politics, and contribute an article suggesting the Troubles are coming back and see how far you get.

If Britain puts in border posts then I have said previously that I think dissidents will attack them. This is an inevitability. It will not and cannot lead to a total conflict like the Troubles, because as I keep saying, basically none of the suitable conditions for a conflict like that to start actually exist. In case nobody has been watching, dissidents have been targeting the state forces with bullets and bombs continuously since 1998 and nobody would consider their actions to be "the Troubles coming back".
 

EM2

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No it is not, and finding a single article by one person saying "dissidents may bomb border checkpoints etc" is not evidence of a fear that "Irish people" have that the Troubles are returning.
It just happened to be the first article that came up in a search. There are plenty of others.
Fintan O'Toole of the Irish Times, for example (although this extract is from the New York Review of Books):
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2017/09/28/brexits-irish-question/
At best, attempts to reimpose it will create a lawless zone for the smuggling of goods and people. At worst, border posts will be magnets for the violence of fringe militant groups who will delight in having such powerfully symbolic targets.

Or Kathryn Gaw of the Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...fear-brexit-conflict-good-friday-agreement-eu
To install physical checkpoints along the border would instantly undermine a hard-won peace, and the psychological impact alone would be catastrophic. A return of those barricaded towers and armed checkpoints will stir up emotional memories for many Northern Irish people who witnessed years of violence in border towns such as Newry, Omagh and Derry, and there is a very real fear that they may lead to a resurgence of dissident activity.

Let’s not be naive – terrorism still exists across the province, and the paramilitaries are just waiting for an excuse to relaunch their bitter campaigns. Just last month, Theresa May raised the threat level from Northern Ireland to Great Britain from moderate to severe, and in the past few weeks there have been police raids on a number of secret arms stores. Perhaps this is why the latest polls show that Northern Irish voters will vote remain on 23 June. The risks are simply too high, and the province has come too far to allow this progress to be undone by a few checked boxes on a ballot paper.

In the absence of a cohesive plan, Sinn Fein has already begun proposing a new referendum for the unification of Ireland – a move that has the potential to undo all the hard work of the peace process, regardless of the result.

For residents of Northern Ireland, the possibility of a return to conflict overshadows every other possible benefit or drawback of a Brexit. This vote could change everything, and the Northern Irish people will ultimately have very little say in the result.

With just over a million people eligible to vote, Northern Irish votes are unlikely to make much of a difference to the overall result. On Thursday, the future of Northern Ireland will essentially be decided by people who don’t live there. Great Britain may be able to weather a Brexit, but Northern Ireland simply cannot.

Or Deutsche Welle (video report):
http://www.dw.com/en/new-troubles-in-northern-ireland-due-to-brexit/av-43891943

Or Dr Katy Hayward, of Queen's University, Belfast:
http://www.dw.com/en/northern-irelands-fragile-peace-all-about-the-border/a-41645656
Could the introduction of customs help refuel the conflict?

It's not about drawing a direct line between having to make customs declarations and restarting the conflict. But by making it more difficult in any way — or more apparent — that you're crossing the border, the worry is that you're putting in barriers between North and South that are symbolically significant. Many people in the Bordering on Brexit study were saying it would be a step backwards in the peace process.

Did people express a lot of fears about what might happen?

The overriding feeling I guess was one of uncertainty and, I guess in a post-conflict, fragile society like Northern Ireland, uncertainty is not a good thing — especially when we've seen this quite strong language of mistrust, suspicion and criticism between the British and Irish government. That's not good for the peace process in Northern Ireland because it falls down into the divisions between unionists and nationalists within Northern Ireland and that sort of polarization is a really negative thing.

Or Jonathan Powell, former chief British negotiator on Northern Ireland:
http://www.dw.com/en/with-brexit-no...says-ex-negotiator-jonathan-powell/a-41753087
DW: You were at the heart of the peace process 20 years ago, when eventually you and others were able bring Catholics and Protestants together to sign the Good Friday Agreement. Do you see all your work in jeopardy now?

Jonathan Powell: Yes, I do. I think there is a real danger here. We are undermining the political agreement that we came to. That would be catastrophic. If you have to have border posts, you have to have guards, and they will be targets for the dissidents. There will be more killings, there will be more mayhem.

We don't have civil war anymore in Northern Ireland, but we do still have violence. There are actually more peace walls in Belfast now than when we signed the Good Friday Agreement.

Or Lawrence McKeown (ex-IRA and a 1981 hunger striker):
If one were to imagine a worst-case post-Brexit scenario for Northern Ireland, it would involve the border becoming once again a focus for paramilitary aggression. Dissident republican groups remain sporadically active in Northern Ireland, but have thus far lacked a defined focus for their cause. They are relatively few in number and have little support among the nationalist population of the north of Ireland, but it is worth remembering that the IRA occupied a similar position on the margins at the start of the Troubles. One of their number back then was Laurence McKeown, who took part in the IRA hunger strike of 1981, and is now an author and screenwriter who lives near the border in the south.

“The old border had to do with conflict rather than customs and free movement,” he tells me. “Now, it’s about the impact on cross-border businesses and the flow of people back and forth. And yet any form of a hard border would provide a viable context for dissident activity. If even one border checkpoint was to be attacked, all the rest would have to be fortified.”

Or Eamonn McCann (pro-Brexit NI politician):
Does he honestly think the reappearance of customs posts between north and south could reignite violent republicanism in Northern Ireland? He nods. “As we know from recent history, it does not take that many people to destabilise a country. I would say there are enough people around here who would see the border as an opportunity for just that. It would be a mistake to underestimate the potential of dissidents to become a violently disruptive force."
(These last two taken from: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/apr/23/northern-ireland-brexit-border-old-wounds-troubles )
 
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Howardh

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No it isn't.

Gibraltar is significantly less strategically important than Cyprus. It does not have the military signals capacity to reach our enemies, who are not located in that part of the world anyway, it is not a significant naval base, it is not capable of reliably landing anything larger than an A320 (totally unsuited as a staging post, unlike say, Asencion or Akrotiri or Diego Garcia).

It is today largely a military backwater, and should Britain give it away (which I don't agree with anyway!) it would not much affect the ability for Britain to deploy military power worldwide. Cyprus is a whole other kettle of fish and is by some distance our most important overseas base.




Yes, it is fearmongering and patronising to suggest the Troubles are returning. Basically the implication is "Irish not pleased about something England does = bombs". I would really like for the Irish conflict to be taught in British schools so people can understand it properly. I can't blame most English people for their ignorance of a conflict which is not taught in school, but honestly - please educate yourself on the history of Irish republicanism, the current state of paramilitary groups in Ireland, Northern Irish public opinion on past and present conflict, and why the last iteration of the Troubles (68-98) actually happened.



History does not dictate anything, and respectfully, I don't think you are particularly informed about Irish history.



*rubs temples*

The Good Friday Agreement is basically a treaty which ensures Northern Ireland is governed by its own people in a fair and equitable manner. It enshrines the civic rights that were denied to a significant minority of the population over history, in writing. It ensures that Britain retains sovereignty unless a dual Irish referendum indicates to the Secretary of State otherwise. it gives people equal parity between Irish or British identity, and reaffirms that it is perfectly okay to be either, both, or neither. It ensures that paramilitary groups decommissioned their weapons and enshrined the Mitchell Principles as the future of the province's government. It ensures that the Republic has some contribution towards the affairs of Northern Ireland, yet not sovereignty. It ensured the police force - which routinely abused the human rights of many people, especially children - was subject to a review (the police force ended up being formally abolished and reformed). At a macro-level, it basically washed away the last vestiges of Northern Ireland being a Protestant-dominated statelet where Catholics were either directly or indirectly discriminated against, and moved it towards being a proper democracy (that journey is of course far from complete), based on consensus and sharing power.

Almost none of the complex myriad of conditions that precipitated the Troubles are present today and I challenge you to show me otherwise.

Nobody who studies this kind of thing would suggest the Troubles are coming back, and certainly not in the way you describe (70s/80s style).

How odd, that't the opposite of what an Unionist independent MP thinks could happen. Wonder who's right *puzzled*
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/...will-lead-to-return-of-violence-36849338.html


An independent unionist MP has said that a hard border will lead to a return of violence in Northern Ireland.


North Down MP Lady Sylvia Hermon made the comments during a House of Commons debate urging the government to stay in the Single Customs Union after Brexit.
None of the DUP's 10 MP's attended the debate with deputy leader Nigel Dodds saying that the debate was of "no significance whatsoever".

Speaking in the Commons, Lady Hermon said that no Brexit deal would result in a hard border in Ireland this could see the return of violence.

"If we have no deal, we will inevitably have a hard border in Northern Ireland and we will see the return of violence in Northern Ireland," she said.

Nicky Morgan and Ken Clarke were among the senior pro-EU Tories who urged the Prime Minister to retain the option of a customs union between the UK and EU, amid concerns over the impact of major changes to peace in Northern Ireland.

Former education secretary Mrs Morgan advised her party that they “will not be forgiven for a generation” if they ignore the “evidence for peace” in Northern Ireland and undermine business and financial security.

MPs approved a non-binding motion, which called on the Government to include as an objective in Brexit negotiations the option of establishing “an effective customs union” between the UK and EU, without a formal vote.

But very few Brexit-backing MPs attended the debate, which emerged after 10 select committee chairs moved a motion on the issue.

Belfast Telegraph Digital
 

AlterEgo

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It just happened to be the first article that came up in a search. There are plenty of others.

Oh right, you must be right then (!)

One of the worst things about forums on the internet is contrarianism like this.

Someone posts something on a forum, someone else posts a link saying this is proof the poster was wrong. Poster hasn't even read the link, just copy-pasted it, doesn't realise it's written by a Scottish person for an American site which is geared up to generate clicks, posting revisionist and reactionary crap.

You could probably find hundreds of articles online about how the moon landings were faked if you Googled them.

There is no general fear in Ireland that the Troubles are returning.
 

AlterEgo

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How odd, that't the opposite of what an Unionist independent MP thinks could happen. Wonder who's right *puzzled*
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/...will-lead-to-return-of-violence-36849338.html

Oh dear, another Googler with no knowledge of the subject matter who's found an article he likes.

I recommend you look up who Lady Sylvia Hermon is, her voting record, who votes for her, and evaluate the Belfast Telegraph as a source. Do you read BelTel often? Can you tell me what sort of people read it, and what prejudices they may have? Do you know much about Unionist voting habits, or the constituency Hermon represents, or what matters to the people there?

Incidentally, at no point have I suggested no violence will occur. I have said, several times, border posts are a bad idea because dissidents will be able to easily attack them. Hermon does not at any point in the article suggest the Troubles will return. As I keep saying, dissidents are continuous in their activity, shooting people weekly, yet we are not living in the Troubles.

Look, it's not a debate if you are just going to Google stuff you agree with and then cherrypick the ones that suit your own point of view. I could find a load of content from nationalist MPs (and a load of unionist ones!) which say exactly the opposite to your source, but at no point would I ever be as intellectually dishonest to suggest it was canon.

Respectfully, I don't believe you are able to tell me why you believe the "Troubles will resume cause of Brexit", because you don't know very much about the subject.

I will be more than happy to debate this further if you can do something other than just cherrypick articles you agree with and say I'm wrong.
 

Howardh

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Oh dear, another Googler with no knowledge of the subject matter who's found an article he likes.

I recommend you look up who Lady Sylvia Hermon is, her voting record, who votes for her, and evaluate the Belfast Telegraph as a source. Do you read BelTel often? Can you tell me what sort of people read it, and what prejudices they may have? Do you know much about Unionist voting habits, or the constituency Hermon represents, or what matters to the people there?

Incidentally, at no point have I suggested no violence will occur. I have said, several times, border posts are a bad idea because dissidents will be able to easily attack them. Hermon does not at any point in the article suggest the Troubles will return. As I keep saying, dissidents are continuous in their activity, shooting people weekly, yet we are not living in the Troubles.

Look, it's not a debate if you are just going to Google stuff you agree with and then cherrypick the ones that suit your own point of view. I could find a load of content from nationalist MPs (and a load of unionist ones!) which say exactly the opposite to your source, but at no point would I ever be as intellectually dishonest to suggest it was canon.

Respectfully, I don't believe you are able to tell me why you believe the "Troubles will resume cause of Brexit", because you don't know very much about the subject.

I will be more than happy to debate this further if you can do something other than just cherrypick articles you agree with and say I'm wrong.
In that case I suggest we end it here and return should there be a hard border and disturbances caused by it. Or not.
 

fowler9

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Regarding military bases, I don't think there would be much of a problem with UK keeping military bases in the EU after leaving the same way the U.S. has military bases in the EU. The Irish border on the other hand I feel is an almost insurmountable problem. As I understand it a hard border wouldn't be just the EU being awkward, it is pretty much a legal requirement. We just have a few Brexit hard liners sticking their fingers in their ears going nya nya nya asking why we can't do what the hell we want. If we just bomb out and go to WTO rules they will find out that we can't.
 

Howardh

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All seems to have gone quiet lately. Got to bow down to Mr Fox's ability, how he managed to keep tariff-free steel exports to the US when they block Canada, Mexico and the EU I'll never know. What a genius.
So glad now that we're leaving the EU and we can rely on our top brass to get us all these wonderful free trade deals starting with our best buddy and that "special relationship".

Pardon? I've missed something??
 

NSEFAN

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All seems to have gone quiet lately. Got to bow down to Mr Fox's ability, how he managed to keep tariff-free steel exports to the US when they block Canada, Mexico and the EU I'll never know. What a genius.
So glad now that we're leaving the EU and we can rely on our top brass to get us all these wonderful free trade deals starting with our best buddy and that "special relationship".

Pardon? I've missed something??
Oh it's certainly special alright... It'd be much better if we could just get along and play happy families with our immediate neighbours.
 

Senex

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Oh it's certainly special alright... It'd be much better if we could just get along and play happy families with our immediate neighbours.
How can we do that when we’re so much more important than any of them? (And more democratic, more historic, more successful, more exceptional — our neighbours just don’t realise how wonderful we are!
 

mmh

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How can we do that when we’re so much more important than any of them? (And more democratic, more historic, more successful, more exceptional — our neighbours just don’t realise how wonderful we are!

This is a common misconception of remainers, that people voted to leave because we hate our neighbours. I certainly don't. I didn't vote to leave Europe, I voted to leave Brussels.
 

AlterEgo

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This is a common misconception of remainers, that people voted to leave because we hate our neighbours. I certainly don't. I didn't vote to leave Europe, I voted to leave Brussels.

British exceptionalism is alive and well though. We’re a thoroughly bonkers island nation.
 

Howardh

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British exceptionalism is alive and well though. We’re a thoroughly bonkers island nation.
Be fair, according to Sky's Faisal Islam; the government has finally produced it's Brexit Impact Scan.



That's the Dutch government.


Not ours.
 

yorksrob

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British exceptionalism is alive and well though. We’re a thoroughly bonkers island nation.

Yes, Australia hasn't decided to join a political union with New Zealand, and Uruguay hasn't joined a political union with Argentina, and the US hasn't joined a union with Caneda, but the UK is engaged in exceptionalism because it has declined to remain in the EU!
 

Bromley boy

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Yes, Australia hasn't decided to join a political union with New Zealand, and Uruguay hasn't joined a political union with Argentina, and the US hasn't joined a union with Caneda, but the UK is engaged in exceptionalism because it has declined to remain in the EU!

Indeed.

Pathetic, isn’t it?!

This country is apparently now so limp, so weak, so reduced, that we are incapable of existing as an independent nation state.

How about showing a little pride in one’s
country?

Churchill must be spinning in his grave.
 

yorksrob

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Indeed.

Pathetic, isn’t it?!

This country is apparently now so limp, so weak, so reduced, that we are incapable of existing as an independent nation state.

How about showing a little pride in one’s
country?

Churchill must be spinning in his grave.

I just find it ridiculous the double standards in this whole debate. Because we happen to be geographically close to a foreign country, its expected that we have to have a political union with them. It's a shame President Obama never got round to starting the United States' political union with Mexico and Canada.
 

muddythefish

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We don't have a political union with the EU. We are an independent state - we proved that by voting to leave the EU. The EU has never affected any major decision made by this country since we have been a member. The customs union is different; we need to belong to it. Leaving it will ruin the economy and leave it weaker and impoverished.
 
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