EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Bromley boy]

Accusing those with opposing views of being trolls doesn't help advance debate.

Agreed....

Folk are allowed to be clueless misguided jingoists. Doesn't mean they are deliberately trolling.

... but neither does name calling.

With my vote, I achieved my aim of removing a Tory Prime Minister who had forgotten that he was elected to lead our representative democracy.

So you voted leave, not because you wanted to leave, but because you wanted to remove Cameron, even though, prior to the vote, it was by no means certain that he would resign in the event of a leave victory? That seems like strange reasoning to me.

Leaving the EU should never have been a referendum decision. Far to complex a decision to be a simple in/out vote. It should have either been a manifesto pledge or a government bill.

Luckily for you it was a manifesto pledge of the government returned at the last GE. We also have clarity that leaving means leaving the EU and it’s major institutions.

If the public had wanted an anti Brexit government they could have elected the Lib Dems.

I think it is fair to say that there was some uncertainty, such that a no-deal Brexit was within parameters. I didn't think it would come to that but given how obtuse the EU's negotiation team has been - they make those who negotiated the Treaty of Versailles look like flexible negotiators - it would not surprise me if we ended up with no deal. All I can say about the so-called Lord Mandelson is that he is dependent on the EU for his pension - so beware of vested remain interests!

Agreed and the government should have been preparing for that (undesirable) possibility from the outset, and negotiating robustly on that basis, with payment of the “divorce bill” being contingent on an acceptable deal being reached.

 

[bnm]

but neither does name calling.

I haven't called anyone specific a name. It is self evident that there is a subset of brexiteers who are misguided jingoists. No worse than you referring to a subset of remainers as remoaners.

So you voted leave, not because you wanted to leave, but because you wanted to remove Cameron, even though, prior to the vote, it was by no means certain that he would resign in the event of a leave victory? That seems like strange reasoning to me.

It was an outcome I predicted would happen if he lost the vote. I went with my prediction and helped him on his way.

And I am strange. I once voted Conservative.

 

[Bromley boy]

And I am strange. I once voted Conservative.

I wouldn’t have expected that .

Which election?

 

[bnm]

I wouldn’t have expected that .

Which election?

District Council mid 1990s. To oust a terrible LibDem. The Tory was the only option to do that. Didn't work. I later moved wards.

 

[Bromley boy]

District Council mid 1990s.

Fair enough. I didn’t see that coming.

To oust a terrible LibDem.

Is there any other kind!? (I quite liked Paddy Ashdown).

Hats off for the new avatar, btw. You’ve succeeded in finding one even more disturbing than the last!

 

[Bromley boy]

Oh, blimey, I didn't realise we were leaving NATO too.

Donald Trump is going to disband it soon, so we may as well.

 

[bnm]

I didn't realise it was within the power of the US President to disband NATO. The North Atlantic Treaty certainly doesn't confer such a power on the founding member state.

The US could leave if they wish. But not by executive power of the President. Congress would have to make the decision. And Congress isn't as silly as to insist on a 50.1% majority for such a momentous decision (unlike the ill thought out EU Referendum Bill dreamt up by the fool Cameron), it would require a 2/3 majority. NATO has strong bipartisan support in both houses of Congress. Trump wouldn't get anywhere near a 2/3 majority.

 

[sk688]

NATO has strong bipartisan support in both houses of Congress. Trump wouldn't get anywhere near a 2/3 majority.

In the Senate maybe , but not in the House , not with the Freedom Caucus and RSC now comprising most Republican representatives , GOP support for NATO in the House is low and ebbing away , as more and more right wing Republicans get elected

 

[pemma]

With my vote, I achieved my aim of removing a Tory Prime Minister who had forgotten that he was elected to lead our representative democracy.

Oh dear. I hope you're happy with the outcome of a 'strong and stable' Theresa May as PM instead then!

 

[pemma]

If the public had wanted an anti Brexit government they could have elected the Lib Dems.

You mean Ed Miliband led Labour. Nick Clegg said in the run up to the 2015 election that the Lib Dems would vote in favour of a referendum on EU membership even though they would strongly support remaining in the EU, it was Ed Miliband who said there would no referendum on EU membership and a vote for Labour is a vote to remain in the EU. I seem to recall the Greens also took the same stance as the Lib Dems, while the SNP took the same stance as Labour.

 

[pemma]

And I am strange. I once voted Conservative.

District Council mid 1990s. To oust a terrible LibDem. The Tory was the only option to do that. Didn't work. I later moved wards.

In my local ward we once had a retired signalman who was also a rail enthusiast and passionate about improving public transport standing as the Conservative party candidate. I wouldn't be surprised if some of those who are anti-Tory who post on here would have considered voting for him.

 

[Howardh]

Donald Trump is going to disband it soon, so we may as well.

Like UK and the EU, we/he can leave, but they can't disband either. And Trump's got under three more years to "serve" and hopefully that's the back of him.

 

[bnm]

Oh dear. I hope you're happy with the outcome of a 'strong and stable' Theresa May as PM instead then!

I'm happy with a Tory party tearing itself apart. Sadly though they've not kept it on house and have instead dragged the country into their internecine war.

 

[Bromley boy]

You mean Ed Miliband led Labour. Nick Clegg said in the run up to the 2015 election that the Lib Dems would vote in favour of a referendum on EU membership even though they would strongly support remaining in the EU, it was Ed Miliband who said there would no referendum on EU membership and a vote for Labour is a vote to remain in the EU. I seem to recall the Greens also took the same stance as the Lib Dems, while the SNP took the same stance as Labour.

I meant the post referendum 2017 GE when the Lib Dem’s ran on an anti brexit ticket (nobody knew what Labour’s position was, and we still don’t).

 

[Bromley boy]

I didn't realise it was within the power of the US President to disband NATO. The North Atlantic Treaty certainly doesn't confer such a power on the founding member state.

The US could leave if they wish. But not by executive power of the President. Congress would have to make the decision. And Congress isn't as silly as to insist on a 50.1% majority for such a momentous decision (unlike the ill thought out EU Referendum Bill dreamt up by the fool Cameron), it would require a 2/3 majority. NATO has strong bipartisan support in both houses of Congress. Trump wouldn't get anywhere near a 2/3 majority.

Like UK and the EU, we/he can leave, but they can't disband either. And Trump's got under three more years to "serve" and hopefully that's the back of him.

I wasn’t being entirely serious with that comment.

Although if the US leaves NATO it might as well disband. The US military arsenal dwarfs the combined power of the other members.

 

[bnm]

In the Senate maybe , but not in the House , not with the Freedom Caucus and RSC now comprising most Republican representatives , GOP support for NATO in the House is low and ebbing away , as more and more right wing Republicans get elected

Well, it wasn't low and ebbing away three weeks ago. The House passed a resolution reaffirming US support for NATO. It did so unanimously.

 

[nlogax]

If the US abandons NATO we may as well rename it 'NEATO and Canada' and be done with it.

 

[Bromley boy]

I'm happy with a Tory party tearing itself apart. Sadly though they've not kept it on house and have instead dragged the country into their internecine war.

Are you happy with the Labour Party tearing itself apart?

I see Jezza has served up another helping of disappointment, with a generous dollop of dashed expectations, to the Jewish community.

 

[pemma]

I meant the post referendum 2017 GE when the Lib Dem’s ran on an anti brexit ticket (nobody knew what Labour’s position was, and we still don’t).

To be honest we don't know what the Conservative's position is either. I wouldn't book a holiday to Alaska* on the basis they'll get me there the 'best way' and not tell me what way that is until after I've confirmed my booking. Yet that's what has been done with Brexit.

* Place chosen at random which I don't think is straight forward to reach from the UK and there could be various viable options for reaching Alaska.

 

[Bromley boy]

To be honest we don't know what the Conservative's position is either. I wouldn't book a holiday to Alaska* on the basis they'll get me there the 'best way' and not tell me what way that is until after I've confirmed my booking. Yet that's what has done that with Brexit.

* Place chosen at random which I don't think is straight forward to reach from the UK and there could be various viable options for reaching Alaska.

I suppose the conservatives at least framed a commitment to a Brexit that included leaving the EU and its major institutions.

Thanks to a combination of weak leadership and poor negotiation, I’m not sure what they will end up delivering, though!

 

[bnm]

Are you happy with the Labour Party tearing itself apart?

I see Jezza has served up another helping of disappointment, with a generous dollop of dashed expectations, to the Jewish community.

Labour aren't dragging the country along for the ride. They are but a sideshow in the brexit debate. Besides which I don't have any particular loyalty to them. So I'm neither happy nor sad at their current 'predicament'. Indifferent. I am though always happy to see the Tories squabble. It's entertaining.

Well done on bringing up the Jewish issue again. Not relevant to this thread, just as it isn't to others where you've brought it up. When are you going to start the separate topic? You've threatened to do so on a couple of occasions. Please do. You are obviously itching to engage folk in a debate on Labour v Judaism. Start the topic, don't keep bringing up the issue in topics where it has no relevance. Once started we can then stay on topic here and elsewhere, and I can then ignore it.

 

[Howardh]

I suppose the conservatives at least framed a commitment to a Brexit that included leaving the EU and its major institutions.
Thanks to a combination of weak leadership and poor negotiation, I’m not sure what they will end up delivering, though!

Unless it's a complete WTO break, it's simply now a degree of leaving - therefore by default there's no such thing as "left" - except the WTO. If we end up partly-in this, a bit alligned to that, under some rules and regulations, apply rules and regs of non-EU countries to trade with them....(a) it will be a bureaucratic nightmare for importers and exporters and (b) if we don't actually leave as in "leave" - why all the bother?? Dow the line - say the next 5 years, people (on both sides) will be looking for some tangible evidence their lives are better.

 

[PHILIPE]

I suppose the conservatives at least framed a commitment to a Brexit that included leaving the EU and its major institutions.

Thanks to a combination of weak leadership and poor negotiation, I’m not sure what they will end up delivering, though!

Theresa May meeting Macron. She has become a laughing stock round Europe meeting various leaders.

 

[Jonny]

Unless it's a complete WTO break, it's simply now a degree of leaving - therefore by default there's no such thing as "left" - except the WTO. If we end up partly-in this, a bit alligned to that, under some rules and regulations, apply rules and regs of non-EU countries to trade with them....(a) it will be a bureaucratic nightmare for importers and exporters and (b) if we don't actually leave as in "leave" - why all the bother?? Dow the line - say the next 5 years, people (on both sides) will be looking for some tangible evidence their lives are better.

Maybe, a lack of congestion - both on public and private transport - and lower accommodation costs through lower demand would be a benefit. Not that I would want anyone who is already here to be kicked out, maybe apart from serious criminals.

Maybe also if my sister has the option to bring back anyone she chooses (as long as it's a genuine relationship) from New Zealand where she lives without regard to income criteria as at present, then that would be a benefit. There is a de facto quota - maybe not an exact numerical limit but there effectively is a pseudo-quota on non-EU migrants.

The trouble with an enhanced welfare state (free healthcare, education, etc.) is that it necessitates a form of borders. People wonder why Identitarianism is on the rise. It's because things like the welfare state, though not ideal, are very useful and full Libertarianism cannot be achieved while there is a welfare-related draw across borders, including in-work benefits for which statistics are patchy but mean that many EU nationals in low-paid, potentially disposable (readily replaced by machines or not done) jobs are having a net negative effect (PS please prove me wrong on the last point).

Perhaps if it wasn't for debacles like the VAT Mini One Stop Shop I might have gone self-employed. Perhaps I still might. The lack of an administrative burden from being expected to collect tax for a foreign government would be a benefit. Upsides like that would be a benefit.

Also, a less bureaucratic regime for vehicle approval would enable self-driving cars sooner; the EU is beholden to bureaucrats in that regard (as well as a focus point for lobbyists).

 

[Jonny]

Theresa May meeting Macron. She has become a laughing stock round Europe meeting various leaders.

I can only hope that it is a ploy to make them look like (proverbial) donkeys' poopers.

 

[nlogax]

Poor negotiation from the government but weak and often clueless leadership from most parties involved in this debacle. The referendum is changing our domestic political landscape and has polarized opinions and stances right across the traditional party spectrum. Once the post-March 2019 dust settles (if it does at all) I can well imagine traditional party politics becoming almost unrecognizable. Whether such a shake-up is needed is down to personal opinion, but it really feels as though this whole process is reshaping what goes on in Westminster.

 

[Senex]

Unless it's a complete WTO break, it's simply now a degree of leaving - therefore by default there's no such thing as "left" - except the WTO. If we end up partly-in this, a bit alligned to that, under some rules and regulations, apply rules and regs of non-EU countries to trade with them....(a) it will be a bureaucratic nightmare for importers and exporters and (b) if we don't actually leave as in "leave" - why all the bother?? Dow the line - say the next 5 years, people (on both sides) will be looking for some tangible evidence their lives are better.

And five years down the road, when people see that, far from experiencing some tangible evidence that their lives are better, in all sorts of ways and not just the economic their lives are actually worse, what will they think of the politicians who led them down this road?

 

[Bromley boy]

There is a de facto quota - maybe not an exact numerical limit but there effectively is a pseudo-quota on non-EU migrants.

There is indeed.

Visa rules for non EU workers have been tightened up extensively in an effort to reduce overall migration figures as, inevitably, free movement means EU migration cannot be limited.

This has very undesirable results - I personally know an Australian tax professional who decided to return down under after the U.K. government crack down on highly skilled migrant visas made it effectively impossible for him to change jobs while in the U.K.

That’s one less six figure income being earned (and taxed!) in the U.K.

These are not the kind of people we should be chasing away.

 

[Senex]

Theresa May meeting Macron. She has become a laughing stock round Europe meeting various leaders.

She's trying the ancient British tactic of divide and rule, but now not as in the days of departed glory from a position of strength but from a position of weakness. The EU's job is to look after its own interests, not to help Britain in any way except where that help would also be clearly beneficial for the remaining EU.

 

[Bromley boy]

She's trying the ancient British tactic of divide and rule, but now not as in the days of departed glory from a position of strength but from a position of weakness. The EU's job is to look after its own interests, not to help Britain in any way except where that help would also be clearly beneficial for the remaining EU.

Which is why the U.K. government should have made clear that the tens of billions the EU is expecting on a plate when we leave isn’t guaranteed unless they play ball.

Hit them where it hurts to concentrate their minds...