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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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mmh

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Um, why did he go to countries not in the EU? Actually, just "why did he".
 
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Groningen

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Except for Norway, Belarus and some on the Balkan all countries visited are in the EU.
 

bramling

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If he hadn't put it in the manifesto then I think he would still be PM. Once it was in the manifesto he had to follow through.

Agreed he would have continued. However remember that he had ruled out a third term. So somewhere around now there would have been some kind of transition - whether that would have been smooth or messy we shall never know!
 

najaB

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So somewhere around now there would have been some kind of transition - whether that would have been smooth or messy we shall never know!
Agreed. But the advantage is that the only people would would be affected/have a reason to care about it would be the 100,000 or so registered members of the Conservative Party rather than all 50+ million British citizens (and 300M or so EU citizens).
 

rdeez

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When he finished his passport should have been revoked. Then he’d have been doomed to drive his white van around his beloved Europe forevermore.

Why, because he spent his own free time doing something you don't like? Or is there another, more substantial reason you think his passport should be revoked?
 

Geezertronic

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Why, because he spent his own free time doing something you don't like? Or is there another, more substantial reason you think his passport should be revoked?

Because he probably used his van to bring a load of cheap fags and booze back in when he came back :)
 

Bromley boy

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It was only supposed to be a joke! Hence the reference to hand writing.

I should have included a smilie.

Still a stupid and pointless thing to do though! <D<D<D
 
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Bromley boy

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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...dache-for-eu-than-uk-officials-fear-9m0g7nr98

The immediate consequences of a “no deal” Brexit in March could be worse for the European Union than for Britain, senior Brussels figures have said.

Officials working for the European Commission have been given the task of drawing up contingency plans to be unveiled early next year in the event that Brexit negotiations collapse or fail to be ratified. Under the plans being co-ordinated by Martin Selmayr, the commission’s secretary-general, the EU would take unilateral measures to keep trade links open and aircraft flying immediately after a “chaotic” Brexit.

Concern is growing in Brussels, however, over whether EU institutions could act swiftly enough. In particular officials are worried that many decisions would require the unilateral endorsement of all member states as well as the European parliament. Moves would also have to be compatible with European treaties and could be challenged in the Court of Justice.

A reminder that this process isn’t as one-sided as some on here like to make out.
 
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Howardh

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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...dache-for-eu-than-uk-officials-fear-9m0g7nr98
A reminder that this process isn’t as one-sided as some on here like to make out.
Even remainers like me know that it's not totally one-sided in the EU's favour. All those EU politicians sat on the beaches in Greece and Spain will be looking at the pot-bellied Brits and noticing just how much income we are bringing them. Also looking at the cars we drive and where they come from - which is usually a mixture of different countries for even one car.

For both sides it's important trade is kept free and seamless, however who will win the balancing act? Wish I was an outsider looking in. My money's still on the Andrex Brexit seeing as it's now law to keep the Irish Border open and (mostly) unguarded, so we can't walk away and take WTO rules that insist on all imported (or is it exported? Both??) goods being checked and the value registered - or something.
 

Bromley boy

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All those EU politicians sat on the beaches in Greece and Spain will be looking at the pot-bellied Brits and noticing just how much income we are bringing them. Also looking at the cars we drive and where they come from - which is usually a mixture of different countries for even one car.

Indeed, they certainly should be.

The worry is that the EU is now so divorced from its member states that common sense like that falls on deaf ears.
 

bnm

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Meanwhile, HM Treasury has been converting cash reserves into euros over the last year. It now holds more euros than dollars. It would seem that No. 11 believe the euro is a better bet.

A vote of confidence in the pound from Phillip Hammond. Not.
 

mmh

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Indeed, they certainly should be.

The worry is that the EU is now so divorced from its member states that common sense like that falls on deaf ears.

Exactly. It's very telling that we, including leavers and remainers, all talk about "the EU" as if it's an entity in its own, divine, right which is absolute, rather than an agreement between nations with elected delegates to it.

There are a lot of people on here who seem to think Brexit is a party political matter, left vs right, or Tory vs Labour. It isn't, and the creation of the current EU almost by stealth over the past two decades is what has bred the scepticism, left and right, in Britain and across Europe, which led to the referendum happening.

A few have suggested this should have purely been an internal Tory fight. Nonsense. Yes, the Conservatives spent much of the 80s and 90s famously arguing over Europe, but that's because they were in power. The Labour party was also split, and always has been. The Blair era airbrushed it out of history but it's always been there.

Twenty years on we have Labour constituencies trying to oust long serving and respected MPs because they dare to have an opinion on Brexit that differs from the non-existent party line. I could well be wrong, often am, but I seem to remember neither party whipped on article 50.

I haven't heard of any Conservatives being threatened with deselection.

Before the inevitable: I'm a Labour member, a union member since 1998 and my voting record is predictably unremarkable.
 

fowler9

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Exactly. It's very telling that we, including leavers and remainers, all talk about "the EU" as if it's an entity in its own, divine, right which is absolute, rather than an agreement between nations with elected delegates to it.

There are a lot of people on here who seem to think Brexit is a party political matter, left vs right, or Tory vs Labour. It isn't, and the creation of the current EU almost by stealth over the past two decades is what has bred the scepticism, left and right, in Britain and across Europe, which led to the referendum happening.

A few have suggested this should have purely been an internal Tory fight. Nonsense. Yes, the Conservatives spent much of the 80s and 90s famously arguing over Europe, but that's because they were in power. The Labour party was also split, and always has been. The Blair era airbrushed it out of history but it's always been there.

Twenty years on we have Labour constituencies trying to oust long serving and respected MPs because they dare to have an opinion on Brexit that differs from the non-existent party line. I could well be wrong, often am, but I seem to remember neither party whipped on article 50.

I haven't heard of any Conservatives being threatened with deselection.

Before the inevitable: I'm a Labour member, a union member since 1998 and my voting record is predictably unremarkable.
The EU did nothing by stealth. Our politicians were involved all the way (Including UKIP politicians taking cash and literally doing nothing). The referendum came about because of Tory in fighting and trying to negate the threat of losing votes to UKIP.
 

rdeez

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It was only supposed to be a joke! Hence the reference to hand writing.

I should have included a smilie.

Still a stupid and pointless thing to do though! <D<D<D

I may have been a bit grumpier than usual earlier! I recognise you weren't being serious. Sorry for overreacting a bit.

For what it's worth it seems silly to me as well, but if he's enjoying himself while he's doing it, then good for him.
 

bramling

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The EU did nothing by stealth. Our politicians were involved all the way (Including UKIP politicians taking cash and literally doing nothing). The referendum came about because of Tory in fighting and trying to negate the threat of losing votes to UKIP.

I really tire at this idea that there’s somehow something sinister about the Conservatives being worried at the prospect of losing votes to UKIP. Responding to the electorate should be seen as a positive.

Perhaps if Labour had given even a tiny hint in their 13 years that they were prepared to even think about addressing excessive immigration then UKIP may not have become so popular.
 

Intercity 225

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The worry is that the EU is now so divorced from its member states that common sense like that falls on deaf ears.

We already know that whilst we agree on a number of things our positions on the EU are poles apart, but even so how can you justify that statement? What evidence is there that the EU is divorced from it’s members?

In the vast majority of cases any actions carried out by the EU are undertaken to the benefit of each and every member state. That’s the main reason why it’s such a successful alliance.

There will be a small number of cases for every member state where EU decisions go against their best interests but they’ll be far outweighed by the number of EU actions that work in their favour. And if you’re to weigh up any negative EU decisions for any particular member state versus the positives of EU membership the latter will always outweigh the former, meaning that for every member state their overall national interest is to continue membership.

The reason why that’s the case is because the main purpose of the EU is to deliver economic prosperity to all its members and because each member is a developed first world economy (some obviously stronger than others but on an international scale far closer than apart), the best way to achieve that goal for every member is very similar.

In the small number of areas where there are differences between member states in achieving that goal, the overall benefits achieved from the EU’s ability to function as a single trading bloc heavily outweighs any disadvantages a member state may face. This is because the combined economic strength of the EU28 ensures that all it’s member states can deal on far more beneficial trading terms with the existing and rising economic powerhouses elsewhere on the planet than they’d ever be able to achieve on their own.

I know that you have severe concerns about the constitutional components of EU membership on the UK and they’re the major reasons why you wish to leave so let’s not cover the same ground on that front but I’m intrigued to hear your reasons why you believe that the EU as a whole is “divorced” from what it’s member states want to achieve and actively/unwillingly acting against their best interests considering all the above.
 

trash80

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The EU did nothing by stealth. Our politicians were involved all the way (Including UKIP politicians taking cash and literally doing nothing). The referendum came about because of Tory in fighting and trying to negate the threat of losing votes to UKIP.

Yes the EU has done nothing by stealth, we are part of the EU and part of it's political process. The problem is the vast majority (leavers and remainers for that matter) have little or no idea what the EU is or how it works. The information is out there though.
 

Senex

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Yes the EU has done nothing by stealth, we are part of the EU and part of it's political process. The problem is the vast majority (leavers and remainers for that matter) have little or no idea what the EU is or how it works. The information is out there though.
And the point cannot be emphasised too strongly. Ever since our entry into the EEC our elected politicians (leaving aside arguments about just how representative they are) have been fully involved in every decision about the way the EEC/EU has developed, taking a leading role in the development of such things as the open market and (regrettably from my perspective) arguing for and obtaining British special-case treatment and opt-outs in others. The European Parliament may not be perfect, but it is at least as democratically elected and representative as Westminster and it is our fault if we have not made full use of the possibilities it offers, not least by sending members who have taken the money and played no part. We have played a full part in making the EU what it is — no-one can argue that the things they dislike are what "they" do to "us" if we were a full part of the "they".
 

Howardh

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I really tire at this idea that there’s somehow something sinister about the Conservatives being worried at the prospect of losing votes to UKIP. Responding to the electorate should be seen as a positive.

Perhaps if Labour had given even a tiny hint in their 13 years that they were prepared to even think about addressing excessive immigration then UKIP may not have become so popular.
BiB 1 - if the electorate now turn against Brexit, should it be scrapped?;
BiB 2 - Can you quantify that?
 

bramling

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BiB 1 - if the electorate now turn against Brexit, should it be scrapped?;
BiB 2 - Can you quantify that?

*If* that is clearly the case then yes. However I think there should be more justification than the country having a batch of below-par politicians who don’t seem to be able to deliver any policies let alone Brexit - which seems to be where we are at the moment.

Regarding immigration, as far as I am concerned anything where the number arriving is more than the number leaving is excessive.
 
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Howardh

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*If* that is clearly the case then yes. However I think there should be more justification than the country having a batch of below-par politicians who don’t seem to be able to deliver any policies let alone Brexit - which seems to be where we are at the moment.
.
I'm glad to read that - as for the polititians who can't deliver Brexit they are almost to a man/woman the ones who wanted the country to vote Leave in the first place. Perhaps, in mitigation, they were too concerned about finding tax-havens for their money to realise Brexit was (a) difficult if not (b) impossible. What did Fox say - "Brexit will be the easiest thing ever?" Or was it Davis?
If Brexit ever gets reversed (and by heck I hope it is for everyone's sakes - except the filthy rich) then the blame lies not with the electorate who can only vote on what's in front of them, but those who offered the electorate golden paving.
 

Howardh

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So pretty much since forever, then?
If we all looked back far enough, we're pretty well all immigrants. Judging by the length of ny nose (or ability to drink wine), I must be Roman o_O therefore I assume to make Brexiters happy I've to go back? Well, that should be no problem under freedom of movement.

Oh, wait....:'(

Meanwhile, if immigration is "excessive" maybe we could look at non-EU immigration first http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...58-000-non-EU-migrants-come-Britain-year.html

Spiralling numbers of non-EU migrants are entering Britain by exploiting a 'gaping loophole' in the system, a report reveals today.

A total of 58,000 visas were issued to migrants and their families last year using 'intra-company transfers'. That is a rise of nearly 25 per cent in a decade.

The scheme allows multinational firms to bring in workers from overseas and was designed to allow senior executives to move to and from the UK easily.

But a report by the MigrationWatch think-tank says IT firms are abusing the scheme to bring in workers, typically from India, to fulfil contracts with UK firms.

Workers who arrive under intra-company transfers are not included in the Home Office cap on skilled work permits, currently set at just over 20,000.

The report warns that transfers 'distort the visa system' and 'undermine the integrity of the immigration system'.

The loophole is also damaging the prospects of British IT workers, it says.

Lord Green of Deddington, chairman of MigrationWatch, said: 'Many people are asking why non-EU migration has not been reduced.

Here is part of the answer. Either the Government have taken their eye off the ball or they have been too heavily influenced by a small group of companies and have ignored their own advisory committee.'

The report reveals that in 1992 some 7,185 intra-company transfer visas were issued. That figure has increased eightfold and the scheme now accounts for 60 per cent of all work permits.

Last year a total of 94,000 Tier 2 – or skilled worker visas – were issued, of which 58,000 were transfers. MigrationWatch found a majority of these are for 'third party contracting'. But it warned there appeared to be 'little political will' to deal with deficiencies in the system.

Seems we DO have freedom of movement with anyone - if your company says so (and not the government), so much for "control".

Brexit must be the biggest con trick in history.
 
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bramling

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I'm glad to read that - as for the polititians who can't deliver Brexit they are almost to a man/woman the ones who wanted the country to vote Leave in the first place. Perhaps, in mitigation, they were too concerned about finding tax-havens for their money to realise Brexit was (a) difficult if not (b) impossible. What did Fox say - "Brexit will be the easiest thing ever?" Or was it Davis?
If Brexit ever gets reversed (and by heck I hope it is for everyone's sakes - except the filthy rich) then the blame lies not with the electorate who can only vote on what's in front of them, but those who offered the electorate golden paving.

Not sure I agree with the above. Personally I think Theresa May is a lot of the problem - and dare we not forget which side she supported in the referendum (*). Fundamentally she's just not very good at the job, as evidenced by the disastrous election.

(* although I think it's hard for us to really know what her real views are, as my impression is she didn't want to draw attention to herself by going against Cameron, as well as perhaps backing what she thought would be the winning side -- both good strategies for someone with evident leadership ambitions).
 

mmh

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BiB 1 - if the electorate now turn against Brexit, should it be scrapped

There seems to be a pattern where remainers assume that the only possible way to change your mind is in one direction.

But to answer your question, definitely not. How are judging this mood change? You haven't changed your mind, neither have I.

Neither party is about to suggest a second referendum. Neither are that suicidal.
 
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