EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[HSTEd]

Well I have a theory.

It appears that David Davis was a prisoner in his own office long before he resigned, Number 10 was in charge of 'negotiations' such as they were.

We then have reports that the Treasury was trying to stop any money being spent on preparing for a no deal scenario.

This begins to look almost like the remainers in the cabinet, chief amongst them Theresa May and Spreadsheet Hammond, have been ensuring that nothing concrete happens to prepare for a no deal.

Theresa May triggers Article 50 for no reason other than because she can, calls a General Election to give her a huge majority (and Conservative MPs are loyal to the party above all).
Her plan was then to ensure that negotations achieve nothing and that the country is entirely unprepared for no deal.

She will then, at the last minute, say that the 'national interest' requires brexit to be cancelled because the country obviously isn't ready.
Her glorious praetorian guard of MPs would vote to stop Brexit and she will have three years for the public to forget how angry they are over the whole mess, if she can't repair her image she then retires with a half dozen directorships and a huge pile of money provided by establishment interests.


Then she mucks it up by losing the election, but she is still proceeding with the plan.
No deal prep should have begun a day after the referendum.

 

[bnm]

I have signed the People’s Vote Petition to demand a vote on the Brexit deal.

We, the people, have the democratic right to determine our own future.

https://www.peoples-vote.uk/petition
#PeoplesVote

 

[Bromley boy]

If once I've paid off my mortgage, I was to get not a penny back for whatever reason, I've still saved money over the course of the mortgage because the rent is more expensive. If property prices were to drop by, for example 25%, I wouldn't expect to see rent go down by a similar amount. If the barrier to entry to the housing market wasn't so high, then for more people the only reason to rent instead of buying would be because they have to move a lot for work and could do without the cost overhead and hassle of buying/selling.

I’d suggest the relevant comparator isn’t someone whose paid their mortgage off already. It’s someone whose struggling to save the chunky deposit required in order to buy their first property.

If you’ve paid your mortgage off your property is worth what it is. A 25% drop in prices would still be pretty bad news for you if you wanted to relocate.

Rent levels don’t follow mortgage rates - the flat I currently occupy for example - and will shortly be renting out again - the mortgage is around £650 yet I could charge £1200 per month rent...

 

[Bromley boy]

I have signed the People’s Vote Petition to demand a vote on the Brexit deal.

We, the people, have the democratic right to determine our own future.

https://www.peoples-vote.uk/petition
#PeoplesVote

Luckily, we’ve already voted to leave the EU, so there’s no need for another vote, is there?!

 

[MikeWh]

Luckily, we’ve already voted to leave the EU, so there’s no need for another vote, is there?!

You may be laughing on the other side of your face if the predicted hit to the economy means that the railway can't sustain the current workforce.

 

[Bromley boy]

You may be laughing on the other side of your face if the predicted hit to the economy means that the railway can't sustain the current workforce.

Very true.

As much as I love working on the railway, jobs wise, you should always float like a butterfly, sting like a bee...

Keep your skills sharp, stay focussed and fully flexible...

 

[mmh]

I have signed the People’s Vote Petition to demand a vote on the Brexit deal.

We, the people, have the democratic right to determine our own future.

https://www.peoples-vote.uk/petition
#PeoplesVote

We do. I already voted. It amazes me how many people think a second referendum will sort everything out Neither party will give you one.

 

[Mintona]

I don’t understand how anyone can find it funny that they’re going to be rationed on food and not be able to go on holiday again, whilst watching their relatives die because they can’t get important medication. Strange country this.

 

[Bromley boy]

We do. I already voted. It amazes me how many people think a second referendum will sort everything out Neither party will give you one.

Ain’t that the truth! Least of all Labour when Jezza wants us to leave the EU but won’t admit to it...

I don’t understand how anyone can find it funny that they’re going to be rationed on food and not be able to go on holiday again, whilst watching their relatives die because they can’t get important medication. Strange country this.

I find the whole thing positivity hilarious.

Surely you’re joking!? If not, that’s some of the most ridiculous hyperbole I’ve ever read... surely you aren’t being serious?!

 

[Mintona]

Fairly sure some of it will happen, if not to the extent as posted above. If the risks of Brexit are the above, plus the return of violence in Northern Ireland, what are the positives? And how can they be worth the negatives?

 

[Bromley boy]

Fairly sure some of it will happen, if not to the extent as posted above. If the risks of Brexit are the above, plus the return of violence in Northern Ireland,

Maybe we should move towards a United ireland... radical suggestion there...

what are the positives? And how can they be worth the negatives?

What do you see the negatives as being?!

 

[AlterEgo]

I don’t understand how anyone can find it funny that they’re going to be rationed on food and not be able to go on holiday again, whilst watching their relatives die because they can’t get important medication. Strange country this.

None of that is going to happen.

This thread is a basket case.

 

[NSEFAN]

None of that is going to happen.

Were the border checks in response to the troubles, rather than a contributory factor? It was certainly an eye opener to see the number of unionist flags flying in Northern Ireland recently; it certainly gave the impression of trouble bubbling under the surface, but then perhaps I'm just not used to seeing such over patriotism. I'm not sure if a hard border in Ireland would be enough to push it over the edge into actual violence.

 

[AlterEgo]

Were the border checks in response to the troubles, rather than a contributory factor? It was certainly an eye opener to see the number of unionist flags flying in Northern Ireland recently; it certainly gave the impression of trouble bubbling under the surface, but then perhaps I'm just not used to seeing such over patriotism. I'm not sure if a hard border in Ireland would be enough to push it over the edge into actual violence.

Border posts and checks had existed since partition in 1921. The difference during he Troubles is that they were staffed by the Army as opposed to the police/gardaí.

Border posts are not a contributory factor to conflict in Ireland and it is wrong for people to continue to imply it was ever so. Conflict over the constitutional status of Ireland has existed for over 800 years, and for over 700 them there were no border posts as Northern Ireland didn’t exist.

Border posts are however an easy target for any people who do take up armed struggle. They’re a symbol of contemporary partition and staffed by agents of the state. It’s also easy to strike the agents of one state there while being based in another.

Almost none of the factors that precipitated the Troubles are present today and people need to stop suggesting we are about to wind the clock back. The Troubles are very poorly understood in England.

 

[Mintona]

What do you see the negatives as being?!

That I’ll never be able to afford to go on holiday again. That I’ll be paying far more on my mortgage than my house is worth. That my wife will die because she can’t get the medication she needs, and that the NHS will collapse because nobody will work there anymore. That I or my daughter won’t ever have the opportunity to live in a European country. That for starters.

 

[Howardh]

We do. I already voted. It amazes me how many people think a second referendum will sort everything out Neither party will give you one.

General election then?
The Tories have backed themselves into a corner now. We can't have no-deal (a) it's unlikely to get through Parliament and (b) we physically aren't ready/can't cope - where's the infrastructure, the staff??
So May HAS to get a deal - there's no such thing as "bad" or "good"; she just needs ANY deal (and she will call it good). However, if we don't get a deal that parliament can sign up to, then what?
The easiest option is for the Tories to bottle out and let us make the decision on what's put in front of us (May's deal that she can't get throught Parliament). That's a referendum on the deal. If we don't like it (because we are remainers or hard-line Brexiters voting against it as it's not hard enough) then what?? What would the rejection of the deal mean? WTO terms (that the country isn't ready for) or abandon the shambles and return begging to the EU?
The second option would be to delay Brexit (if the EU allows) and have a General Election which the Tories would probably want to lose and pass the poisoned chalice over to Labour.
Who don't want the job.....
Happy days.
If it wasn't for Brexit we would be concentrating on health, education, policing....
HS2.....

 

[pemma]

Luckily, we’ve already voted to leave the EU, so there’s no need for another vote, is there?!

So what terms did we vote to leave on - Norway style deal, Switzerland style deal, Canada style deal, no deal? Surely you can't think those who want to cut off all ties will be happy with a Norway style deal or those who still want to retain links with the EU but not be a member will be happy with no deal.

The problem (for Brexiteers is) 51.8% voted leave. If the Conservatives can't get a deal and 25% vote in favour of no deal then the Conservative have no mandate to take us out of the EU unless they can go back and get a deal.

 

[pemma]

We do. I already voted. It amazes me how many people think a second referendum will sort everything out Neither party will give you one.

There's more than 2 parties. Some in UKIP want a referendum on the leaving terms for two reasons:
1. They think the vote will go in their favour so it will permanently shut up the remainers.
2. They think the Conservatives are doing a rubbish job at negotiating our exit so having to face a public vote will get them to work harder on negotiating our exit.

 

[Bromley boy]

The problem (for Brexiteers is) 51.8% voted leave. If the Conservatives can't get a deal and 25% vote in favour of no deal then the Conservative have no mandate to take us out of the EU unless they can go back and get a deal.

On the contrary. The mandate (from both the referendum result and the general election manifesto) is to take us out of the EU. Ideally with a deal but, if not, we will have to crash out.

There’s absolutely no mandate to remain in the EU if a deal can’t be struck!

 

[Bromley boy]

That I’ll never be able to afford to go on holiday again. That I’ll be paying far more on my mortgage than my house is worth. That my wife will die because she can’t get the medication she needs, and that the NHS will collapse because nobody will work there anymore. That I or my daughter won’t ever have the opportunity to live in a European country. That for starters.

You’ve swallowed project fear hook, line and sinker.

 

[Bromley boy]

The easiest option is for the Tories to bottle out and let us make the decision on what's put in front of us (May's deal that she can't get throught Parliament). That's a referendum on the deal.

And if the result of the next referendum isn’t to your liking, will you be asking for yet another one?

 

[mmh]

And if the result of the next referendum isn’t to your liking, will you be asking for yet another one?

It's the standard EU approach - the neverendum. Vote and vote again until you vote the correct way.

 

[Howardh]

And if the result of the next referendum isn’t to your liking, will you be asking for yet another one?

I'm talking about the Tories way out of this mess, not mine. Personally I wouldn't mind if we crash out and within 5 years everyone (bar the hard-liners who will NEVER change their mind) is begging and pleading for us to go back into the EU. As long as in the meantime my pensions remain reasonably intact.

 

[Howardh]

It's the standard EU approach - the neverendum. Vote and vote again until you vote the correct way.

What happens, then, if there's (a) no deal and Parliament doesn't accept it OR (b) there's a deal but Parliament doesn't accept it?
Your call...what should happen next??
As far as I can see there are only two; one is another referendum (like it or not) or Parliament dissolves and we have a General Election, which will be another referendum in all but name. But what do you suggest we do in those two senarios?
And what happens if Parliament can't sort out the mess, it does neither of the above and decides to abandon Brexit?
Remember - you don't want another referendum or General Election....can't keep having them, you see...

 

[Bromley boy]

What happens, then, if there's (a) no deal and Parliament doesn't accept it OR (b) there's a deal but Parliament doesn't accept it?
Your call...what should happen next??
As far as I can see there are only two; one is another referendum (like it or not) or Parliament dissolves and we have a General Election, which will be another referendum in all but name. But what do you suggest we do in those two senarios?
And what happens if Parliament can't sort out the mess, it does neither of the above and decides to abandon Brexit?
Remember - you don't want another referendum or General Election....can't keep having them, you see...

Unless I’ve misunderstood something I don’t think parliament has to accept no deal. Now that article 50 has been invoked it is the default position if no agreement can be reached.

So in that scenario we should crash out of the EU - hopefully saving ourselves the divorce bill in the process!

EDIT: you seem to think an election or referendum is offering you some kind of solution. I would ask why when:

- a referendum may result in a stronger leave vote;

- both major parties are committed to withdrawing the U.K. from the EU.

 

[NSEFAN]

And if the result of the next referendum isn’t to your liking, will you be asking for yet another one?

So the people should just grin and bear it, even if they'll be worse off? For how long should they put up with it?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It's the standard EU approach - the neverendum. Vote and vote again until you vote the correct way.

It's the standard Brexiter's approach - the ever-myth-um. Make up a story that paints the EU in a bad light, and keep repeating it, even though it isn't really true.

 

[Bromley boy]

So the people should just grin and bear it, even if they'll be worse off? For how long should they put up with it?

Yep!

That’s what happens in any democracy. Sometimes votes don’t go your way - that doesn’t make them any less valid.

If you want to reverse Brexit you can always vote for the Lib Dems.

 

[Howardh]

Unless I’ve misunderstood something I don’t think parliament has to accept no deal. Now that article 50 has been invoked it is the default position if no agreement can be reached.

So in that scenario we should crash out of the EU - hopefully saving ourselves the divorce bill in the process!

EDIT: you seem to think an election or referendum is offering you some kind of solution. I would ask why when:

- a referendum may result in a stronger leave vote;

- both major parties are committed to withdrawing the U.K. from the EU.

Yes, that's a distinct possibility, but at least it would be a vote on the outcome of Brexit so we all know where we stand.

As I have said before, we can't simply walk away with no-deal "A50 being default" as, in the last 2 years, we've done less than nothing to prepare for it. Fair enough if everything was now in place, but the goverment have not prepared for something that isn't gonna happen.

So that leaves us, by default, accepting a "deal" whatever it is.

Now, if that "deal" includes, after all, retaining freedom of movement (or FoM to a large degree) is that acceptable to everyone voting leave? If not, what can you do about it?? You don't what another refe....

But if there was that gives us the opportunity to say "that's not the brexit we voted for". But you don't seem to want that?

 

[Bromley boy]

It's the standard EU approach - the neverendum. Vote and vote again until you vote the correct way.

Indeed - how many votes do they want?! Best of three, best of five?

How will we know which vote is the “right” one and can be used to ignore the others?!