EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[nidave]

Rightwing thinktanks unveil radical plan for US-UK Brexit trade deal

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-radical-plan-for-us-uk-brexit-trade-deal-nhs

"A radical blueprint for a free trade deal between the UK and the US that would see the NHS opened to foreign competition, a bonfire of consumer and environmental regulations and freedom of movement between the two countries for workers, is to be launched by prominent Brexiters"

People were warned, but it was just "project fear". Brexit is not about the UK population but how much more money a small group can make.

So instead of being part of the EU. We become part of the usa. That's going to end well and what was this all about... Let me see if I can remember... Of yes. Reducing immigration and taking back control. If this goes ahead we will hale less rights and protection and no gain.

 

[Senex]

Rightwing thinktanks unveil radical plan for US-UK Brexit trade deal

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-radical-plan-for-us-uk-brexit-trade-deal-nhs

"A radical blueprint for a free trade deal between the UK and the US that would see the NHS opened to foreign competition, a bonfire of consumer and environmental regulations and freedom of movement between the two countries for workers, is to be launched by prominent Brexiters"

People were warned, but it was just "project fear". Brexit is not about the UK population but how much more money a small group can make.

Are the prominent Brexiteers trying for some curious reason to hand the next general election to Corbyn and his Marxist friends? Would a British electorate vote for any party putting forward that "radical blueprint"? Or is it that the Brexiteers would really like us to be the next State of the Union, as the US-worship over the years from some right-wing elements (strongly supported by the BBC and its apparent love for all things US) might suggest?

 

[Howardh]

Rightwing thinktanks unveil radical plan for US-UK Brexit trade deal

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-radical-plan-for-us-uk-brexit-trade-deal-nhs

"A radical blueprint for a free trade deal between the UK and the US that would see the NHS opened to foreign competition, a bonfire of consumer and environmental regulations and freedom of movement between the two countries for workers, is to be launched by prominent Brexiters"

People were warned, but it was just "project fear". Brexit is not about the UK population but how much more money a small group can make.

Will be interesting to read the thoughts of leave voters who based their vote on the ending of freedom of movement (our roads are overcrowded, services choaked etc etc).

 

[nidave]

Are the prominent Brexiteers trying for some curious reason to hand the next general election to Corbyn and his Marxist friends? Would a British electorate vote for any party putting forward that "radical blueprint"? Or is it that the Brexiteers would really like us to be the next State of the Union, as the US-worship over the years from some right-wing elements (strongly supported by the BBC and its apparent love for all things US) might suggest?

Who thinks there will be an election before this sort of trade deal is rushed through parlement. I dont think your going to get any say in this.

Love the BBC reference there. How can the BBC be both left wing and right wing at the same time. What a delightful conundrum.
Can you back up your claim with facts that the BBC loves the US considering it would threaten its very existence.

Corbyn should be really ahead in the polls but he is not. Let that sink in. It might be that people think his is too left wing for them. Considering the conservatives are getting more and more right wing its nature balancing it all out. I don't think he can win an election therefore won't be a position to do much. But I could be wrong especially as you say if this idea becomes government policy.

 

[Groningen]

As far as i know your NHS is free?! But things still need to be paid. If Americans join your hospitalbed, maybe get even more expensive.

 

[Howardh]

As far as i know your NHS is free?! But things still need to be paid. If Americans join your hospitalbed, maybe get even more expensive.

Almost. The exceptions are payment for prescriptions, dentistry etc which are age and/or means-tested, so for example a dentist's check-up will be a set fee (around £20) and any remedial work costs more (filling around £60 inc check-up) unless you are elderly, poor, unemployed etc.
However, if you visit the doctor, that's free, as is any kind of hospital treatment (emergency or planned), and also many qualify for free social care (elderly getting nursing visits) etc.
The problem is, with a growing elderly population it's getting expensive, and there is concern here as to how long the bulk of it will be "free".

 

[nidave]

Will be interesting to read the thoughts of leave voters who based their vote on the ending of freedom of movement (our roads are overcrowded, services choaked etc etc).

The USA can join the likes of turkey, India, Australia and New Zealand all demanding freedom of movement in exchange for a trade deal.

 

[Howardh]

The USA can join the likes of turkey, India, Australia and New Zealand all demanding freedom of movement in exchange for a trade deal.

Wonder if Farage will be standing in front of a poster full of Yanks, Aussies and Kiwi's marching towards this country? But you are right, as we beg for trade deals there will be a payback and having to take immigrants from them will probably be a compulsory. So much for "control" then.

 

[Groningen]

The nurses from mainland Europe can than be replaced by nurses (and other personel) from the USA.

 

[nidave]

The nurses from mainland Europe can than be replaced by nurses (and other personel) from the USA.

You really need to think that post through a little. If this goes ahead we will have to pay far more than we do in tax than we will do for a privatized nhs under this deal. That's a super idea.

So what makes nurses from the USA better than European nurses??? Plus how will that solve the problem mooted in this very thread about people coming over and causing a housing, school, whatever crisis etc (will these nurses come over on their own or bring their families) if we just replace one group with another.

 

[AM9]

No need to brag blimey - makes my eyes water! Think all my leftovers will be used up next month, I'll have to find something to spend them on. Wine sounds a pretty good excuse

It's not a brag, I just believed the predictions that if there was anything but a firm remain vote that the pound would fall. That was good advice. I suspect that there will be another drop after A50 gets enacted so investing in a few then might be worthwhile. If it's a 'no-deal' walk out then the pound will plummet, and I'm sure that is what the hard-liners like Rees-Mogg are hoping for so that they will be amongst the few who benefit big-time, (and guess who will pay).

 

[Groningen]

You are sure that nurses from mainland Europe are able to stay?

 

[radamfi]

You are sure that nurses from mainland Europe are able to stay?

Probably. But many are leaving anyway because they don't feel welcome in the UK any more. If they don't go home they have 26 other countries to choose from.

 

[Clip]

Almost. The exceptions are payment for prescriptions, dentistry etc which are age and/or means-tested, so for example a dentist's check-up will be a set fee (around £20) and any remedial work costs more (filling around £60 inc check-up) unless you are elderly, poor, unemployed etc.
However, if you visit the doctor, that's free, as is any kind of hospital treatment (emergency or planned), and also many qualify for free social care (elderly getting nursing visits) etc.
The problem is, with a growing elderly population it's getting expensive, and there is concern here as to how long the bulk of it will be "free".

Not quite - non of it is free - people pay a levy from their wage packet each and every month to pay fore the NHS which is why the correct statement is free at the point of use - with the obvious exemptions you outline in the dentist and that

 

[nidave]

Probably. But many are leaving anyway because they don't feel welcome in the UK any more. If they don't go home they have 26 other countries to choose from.

So not only do we displace skilled workers who know the nhs to be replaced by American nurses we have to give up employment rights, environmental rights, food safety, the nhs sold to the highest bidder in order to do that.

Am I the only one who thinks that's insane. What are we getting by leaving the eu. Someone tell me something which will benefit the general population. Something we can't already do but choose not to. That will make our lives better.

 

[Howardh]

So not only do we displace skilled workers who know the nhs to be replaced by American nurses we have to give up employment rights, environmental rights, food safety, the nhs sold to the highest bidder in order to do that.

Am I the only one who thinks that's insane. What are we getting by leaving the eu. Someone tell me something which will benefit the general population. Something we can't already do but choose not to. That will make our lives better.

What we're actually doing is giving the government carte blanche to take in thousands upon thousands if immigrants, some we need but some will be the price we have to pay to get trade deals - many of those deals we already have via the EU but without the price of mass immigration.
So we will end up with, yes, nurses and doctors, teachers etc, but also we will be flooded with low-paid immigration in a deregulated economy, the only way we will be able to compete with the likes of China/India etc who offer low wages.
Good stuff, Brexit, lowering wages, increasing net immigration and deregulating our working rights and so on.

 

[bnm]

What are we getting by leaving the eu. Someone tell me something which will benefit the general population. Something we can't already do but choose not to. That will make our lives better

Dunno about their benefit, or making life better, but...

...blue passports.

More seriously. I'm getting fed up with the parroted response to every negative prediction being "project fear".

Where are the positive predictions? Where's "project utopia"?

 

[mmh]

Will be interesting to read the thoughts of leave voters who based their vote on the ending of freedom of movement (our roads are overcrowded, services choaked etc etc).

My thought is that loony right wing "think tanks" have always come out with stuff like this. The Adam Smith Institute has been doing it for decades. The only difference these days is they like the "libertarian" word and they have Brexit to spout nonsense over.

 

[Howardh]

Dunno about their benefit, or making life better, but...

...blue passports.

More seriously. I'm getting fed up with the parroted response to every negative prediction being "project fear".

Where are the positive predictions? Where's "project utopia"?

Just outside Stoke?

 

[Mag_seven]

More seriously. I'm getting fed up with the parroted response to every negative prediction being "project fear".

Or the term "scaremongering". Apparently Bernard Jenkin the Tory MP knows more about the effect of a no deal Brexit on Jaguar Land Rover than the guy who runs it.

A leading Conservative Brexiter has accused the head of Jaguar Land Rover of inventing dire consequences for his company of a no-deal Brexit, saying people no longer believed the “scaremongers” in the debate.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ng-on-no-deal-brexit-says-bernard-jenkin-tory

 

[Senex]

Dunno about their benefit, or making life better, but...
...blue passports.
More seriously. I'm getting fed up with the parroted response to every negative prediction being "project fear".
Where are the positive predictions? Where's "project utopia"?

The Brexiteers seem remarkably reluctant to provide us with any firm predictions of what in their informed view is going to happen over the next few years—and some of us won't be around in the fifty years' time referred to by Mogg to see if we have entered into the sunlit uplands. So where indeed is "project utopia"? Could it be that it's all no more than wishful thinking?
It's interesting that we are in the process of taking probably the biggest political step since WW2 on the basis of a very narrow referendum majority and entirely along the lines decided by one party for its own internal reasons, ignoring any sense of a need for national unity both amongst the people and in the political system. What is happening is very much winner takes all and ignores the other side completely. Still, Labour will emerge with clean hands as over the first few years following Brexit living standards stagnate or fall and those who voted Brexit to stem immigration see just how they have been misled and the Tories become the object of popular hatred. What a pity that reward will come to Labour despite its total failure to offer any sort of real opposition over the last couple of years.

 

[Howardh]

The Brexiteers seem remarkably reluctant to provide us with any firm predictions of what in their informed view is going to happen over the next few years—and some of us won't be around in the fifty years' time referred to by Mogg to see if we have entered into the sunlit uplands. So where indeed is "project utopia"? Could it be that it's all no more than wishful thinking?
It's interesting that we are in the process of taking probably the biggest political step since WW2 on the basis of a very narrow referendum majority and entirely along the lines decided by one party for its own internal reasons, ignoring any sense of a need for national unity both amongst the people and in the political system. What is happening is very much winner takes all and ignores the other side completely. Still, Labour will emerge with clean hands as over the first few years following Brexit living standards stagnate or fall and those who voted Brexit to stem immigration see just how they have been misled and the Tories become the object of popular hatred. What a pity that reward will come to Labour despite its total failure to offer any sort of real opposition over the last couple of years.

It's probably a good tactic on their behalf to say nothing, that way they can't say they were disappointed the way Brexit turned out! But that aside all we seem to hear is a lot of negativity - mainly due to the lack of positivity, which is only the fault of the Brexit leaders. But the fact there is absolutely nothing at all coming out of their mouths about what benefits we will all receive speaks volumes. Perhaps arch-Brexiteer John Redwood was right, "take your money out of the country". Thanks, John, so not much confidence in the future here, then?

 

[VauxhallandI]

You are forgetting that any failures of Brexit will be the fault of the people that didn't vote for it.

The pig headedness will not end. The worse it gets the bigger the denial; they seem not to be the hands up I was wrong type

 

[EM2]

You are forgetting that any failures of Brexit will be the fault of the people that didn't vote for it.

As you say, they didn't vote for it. But also, nor are they negotiating it. So why will it be their fault?

 

[VauxhallandI]

As you say, they didn't vote for it. But also, nor are they negotiating it. So why will it be their fault?

It won't I was playing out what the brexiteers will say.

 

[EM2]

It won't I was playing out what the brexiteers will say.

Ah. Got ya

 

[Basher]

Just a few blow off points, on this thread.

NHS is not free to all. I have to pay for dental treatment, I have to pay to travel and for accommodation in London for treatment twice a year from the north, prescriptions have to be paid for by the vast majority of people. I paid national insurance from the age of 16 and am still paying income tax even as I’m 70.

If we want to give free treatment to immigrants and so called asylum seekers, well we the tax payer will have to pay more tax.

As a child my parents were paying for the second world war bill and I contributed to pay off the national debt. The UK did not get free money like Germany France etc off America. Europe did not give us any recon-pence for freeing them.

Why has Chris Patons lack housing report never been discussed by the liberals of this country?

I voted not to join the common market, but democratically accepted the referendum result. I did not ask for a rerun of the vote.

Mark Carney says house price will fall 30%, good, people will be able to buy a new house at a realistic price.

Teresa May missed an opportunity to employ Mervin King as an independent advisor, he has a much better grip of things than Carney.

BBC are a receiver of grants from the EU, so they do not bit the hand off that feeds them. BBC should be sold off.

If the opposition parties were to rally around the government, the EU would be more amenable to getting a deal. When Vince Cable says the people should not have had a say. He should be deselected as an MP by his constituents.

We still have unemployment in this country, let’s direct some of them to go to crop pick in the fields to earn the hand outs they get.

The EU commission are unelected; we have no say on who is made a commissioner. They are a lot of pigs in the trough, big salaries, pensions and big ego's

So Junker wants an European army under his control. God help us without the US, Russia will be in Paris by lunchtime. The Europeans want to stick to the 2% GDP to NATO as was agreed many years ago .

Can someone explain to me why it is always the UK that have to produce a plan and not the EU.

If the EU put 20% on our exports then we will put 20% on theirs. We will see the 80% tariff on Brazilian beef reduced and sugar tariffs will drop from around 300%.

AND there is the EU court, telling us what we have to do or not do. We have no say on who these people are.

I could go on but, roll on next March and let this country have its greatness back.

PS I think Nigel Fararge should be give a state honour for what he has done to give this country a wake-up call.

 

[fowler9]

Just a few blow off points, on this thread.

NHS is not free to all. I have to pay for dental treatment, I have to pay to travel and for accommodation in London for treatment twice a year from the north, prescriptions have to be paid for by the vast majority of people. I paid national insurance from the age of 16 and am still paying income tax even as I’m 70.

If we want to give free treatment to immigrants and so called asylum seekers, well we the tax payer will have to pay more tax.

As a child my parents were paying for the second world war bill and I contributed to pay off the national debt. The UK did not get free money like Germany France etc off America. Europe did not give us any recon-pence for freeing them.

Why has Chris Patons lack housing report never been discussed by the liberals of this country?

I voted not to join the common market, but democratically accepted the referendum result. I did not ask for a rerun of the vote.

Mark Carney says house price will fall 30%, good, people will be able to buy a new house at a realistic price.

Teresa May missed an opportunity to employ Mervin King as an independent advisor, he has a much better grip of things than Carney.

BBC are a receiver of grants from the EU, so they do not bit the hand off that feeds them. BBC should be sold off.

If the opposition parties were to rally around the government, the EU would be more amenable to getting a deal. When Vince Cable says the people should not have had a say. He should be deselected as an MP by his constituents.

We still have unemployment in this country, let’s direct some of them to go to crop pick in the fields to earn the hand outs they get.

The EU commission are unelected; we have no say on who is made a commissioner. They are a lot of pigs in the trough, big salaries, pensions and big ego's

So Junker wants an European army under his control. God help us without the US, Russia will be in Paris by lunchtime. The Europeans want to stick to the 2% GDP to NATO as was agreed many years ago .

Can someone explain to me why it is always the UK that have to produce a plan and not the EU.

If the EU put 20% on our exports then we will put 20% on theirs. We will see the 80% tariff on Brazilian beef reduced and sugar tariffs will drop from around 300%.

AND there is the EU court, telling us what we have to do or not do. We have no say on who these people are.

I could go on but, roll on next March and let this country have its greatness back.

PS I think Nigel Fararge should be give a state honour for what he has done to give this country a wake-up call.

Oh my I don't know where to start. Let's start with we saved Europe in WW2, we didn't do it alone. The UK armed forces are chock full of personnel not from the UK. Then I'll move on to why the UK should have to come up with a plan and not the EU, we chose to leave, the EU didn't kick us out. Regarding making benefits claimants pick crops, if the job needs doing then pay them a living wage. A house price drop of 30% is still not a realistic price. Tit for tat trade tariff wars are not the answer, neither is importing beef and sugar from Brasil, totally unsustainable. As for wanting greatness back you are clearly deluded.

 

[bnm]

NHS is not free to all. I have to pay for dental treatment, I have to pay to travel and for accommodation in London for treatment twice a year from the north, prescriptions have to be paid for by the vast majority of people. I paid national insurance from the age of 16 and am still paying income tax even as I’m 70.

How come you are paying for your dental treatment at 70?

If we want to give free treatment to immigrants and so called asylum seekers, well we the tax payer will have to pay more tax.

Nearly every study shows that immigrants are net contributors. These immigrants are generally younger, healthier people who require less of the state while at the same time contributing to your free prescriptions and dental care. With an ageing population we need more of the same.

So called asylum seekers? What does that mean? The threshold for asylum is pretty high. A compassionate caring state should provide safety and security to anyone fleeing conflict and persecution.

Carney says house price will fall 30%, good, people will be able to buy a new house at a realistic price

A housing market crash is not a good thing. Negative equity.

BBC are a receiver of grants from the EU, so they do not bit the hand off that feeds them. BBC should be

BBC public service news across all media is not allowed to take or accept external funding.

BBC World Service is now entirely funded by the licence fee.

No other BBC produced programming receives grants from the EU. Independent content producers who sell product to the BBC may receive grants that may be part-funded by the EU, which provide incentives to make programmes in particular regions of the UK. In 2014-15, less than 2% of independently-produced programmes on the BBC used such incentives, which accounted for an average of 6% of their programme budgets.

BBC Research & Development does receive grants from the EU. Grants for research into broadcasting technology that have contributed to developments such as digital TV and DAB digital radio. Other bodies, unrelated to the BBC, have received similar grants - ITV, SKY... state an commercial broadcasters across the EU. BBC R&D receives less than £1m a year in such grants. Less than 1% of its budget. Otherwise R&D is funded by the licence fee.

Whether we should have a licence fee funded broadcaster or not has nothing to do with the EU so statements about selling it off are irrelevant to this thread.

I could rebut nearly every other statement of yours but can't be bothered. Nothing you've said is offering positives for leaving the EU.

 

[londiscape]

A housing market crash is not a good thing. Negative equity.

I would imagine that those who do not yet own a home will see a housing market crash as a very good thing indeed, if it brings home ownership closer in reach.

Primarily those who will be hurt by negative equity are speculators or landlords for whom their property is a financial asset rather than a home to live in. For whom many non-homeowners will feel no sympathy at all.

There will be some outlying cases of people forced by circumstances (job move, family etc) to relocate their primary residence, but I'd wager these would be a minority and most owner-occupiers could stay put until the market revives - thus negative equity won't matter.