EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Howardh]

Indeed. I can't imagine anyone, remainer or Brexiteer, would be asking for the "hard remain" option of a United States of Europe.

Certainly not, and add that I don't want us to be part of a United States of America either.

 

[Howardh]

It's a pity our leaders didn't show such a commitment to democracy in relation to all of the material changes to our terms of membership between 1974 and 2016 !

So we should have been given a vote on taking the Euro or joinoing Schengen?

 

[yorksrob]

So we should have been given a vote on taking the Euro or joinoing Schengen?

Yes, I believe we should have had a public vote on those things before contemplating joining them. I'd even go so far as to say, we might as well have had a vote on joining them anyway.

 

[Howardh]

Yes, I believe we should have had a public vote on those things before contemplating joining them. I'd even go so far as to say, we might as well have had a vote on joining them anyway.

Had we contemplated joining the Euro I am sure we would have had a referendum; however I don't think joining was in any party's manifestos, and there wasn't the will within the country to join.

 

[yorksrob]

Had we contemplated joining the Euro I am sure we would have had a referendum; however I don't think joining was in any party's manifestos, and there wasn't the will within the country to join.

I'm pretty sure that the Blair Government was very keen on joining the Euro around 2000/2001. They should have had a referendum on it then. Either Blair would have got the support he'd wanted, or he'd have had more bargaining power with the rest of the continent in staying out. He couldn't lose in that respect.

 

[Clip]

You mis-understand. That wasn't a statement, just a question that concerns (at government level) about C02 emmissions seem to have gone off the radar - as has a lot of stuff - or at least hiden by all this Brexit stuff.

It pretty much was a statement. No one is hiding anything about the emissions in fact i even linked to a story about them too. Maybe you just dont look in the right places.

 

[Senex]

Er, no, plenty have, including (but not exclusive to):
1/ Project Fear is actually Project Reality
2/ The Leave campaign has been proven to have broken the rules
3/ Our Government are even more incompetent than we realised and are incapable of negotisting an exit
4/ The EU have managed to stick together and negotiate as one block, so the concerns of German car workers and French wine sellers are less important than the Single Market, contrary to everything we were told
5/ Getting a deal is not going to be the easiest thing in tge world
6/ We will never get the fabled £350 million
7/ The Northern Ireland border (and Gibraltar, but that's being ignored for now) is a major hurdle, not a minor bump
8/ Those in power are more concerned about staying in power than doing what's right for country and it's population

I'd agree with all those but would beef up 2 to say that the Leave campaign has been proved to have acted illegally in terms of election law, which alone should invalidate the referendum and take away any validity from May's claims that she is carrying out the will of the people. And 8 really hits the nail on the head: what is being planned is a purely Tory Brexit, either with some sort of cobbled-together deal or with no deal, designed just to look after Tory interests. The Tory negotiations are not supported by any other party save for the DUP whose support was purchased. This is an appalling way of handling the most important political question faced by this state since WW2—but it does mean that when it all goes pear-shaped it will be just the Tories who will have to face the blame.

 

[trash80]

I think the people who are at fault will have left for sunnier climes by then

 

[trash80]

I see they are still going on about "saving" the Chequers deal, the level of delusion is fascinating

 

[bramling]

I'm pretty sure that the Blair Government was very keen on joining the Euro around 2000/2001. They should have had a referendum on it then. Either Blair would have got the support he'd wanted, or he'd have had more bargaining power with the rest of the continent in staying out. He couldn't lose in that respect.

As I recall Blair was keen on joining the Euro, but Brown wasn’t - hence a typical New Labour fudge of the “five tests”.

It was certainly rumoured that Blair wanted Britain joining the Euro to be his legacy. Instead his legacy was being held responsible for a dubious war!

It seems to be generally accepted that joining the Euro would have been a massive economic mistake.

 

[bramling]

"Asked"
Heard the phrase "don't celebrate too early"?
If your boss gave you instructions that turned out to be impossible, you would expect a half-decent boss to change those instructions. They will eventually bottle out and come back to the country to get themselves out of this mess; so if it's a second referendum or general election I assume you will boycott it in protest?

I really don’t get what a general election would solve. It’s partly that election which May bungled which has contributed to things being a mess on the Irish front due to the DUP’s influence.

The whole reason why the issue was dealt with via a referendum was because it really doesn’t align to party lines. Whatever hard feelings I might have towards one side or other over Brexit I’d feel very uncomfortable being asked to choose between parties, and potentially having to vote for a party so wouldn’t otherwise be choosing. Many people would feel likewise, which would likely lead to another messy result.

 

[yorksrob]

It seems to be generally accepted that joining the Euro would have been a massive economic mistake.

Indeed. And I strongly suspect that the British public would have rejected it.

However, I think it would have been a wonderful thing for the British electorate to have pro-actively decided on whether to go ahead with such a major constitutional change, rather than the "we've done exactly what we want for the past thirty years, now we want the electorate to ratify it as the consequences of not doing so are potentially such an upheaval to the economy, they'll do what we say anyway" approach of the last one.

 

[Howardh]

I really don’t get what a general election would solve. It’s partly that election which May bungled which has contributed to things being a mess on the Irish front due to the DUP’s influence.

The whole reason why the issue was dealt with via a referendum was because it really doesn’t align to party lines. Whatever hard feelings I might have towards one side or other over Brexit I’d feel very uncomfortable being asked to choose between parties, and potentially having to vote for a party so wouldn’t otherwise be choosing. Many people would feel likewise, which would likely lead to another messy result.

There's a point there about party lines - how many voted against the EU simply because Cameron was a Tory MP and for remaining? At the time we read that many did just that - described as "giving the government a kicking"?? Although I wonder if there would have been the same opposite effect if Cameron had been a leaver?

 

[pemma]

There's a point there about party lines - how many voted against the EU simply because Cameron was a Tory MP and for remaining? At the time we read that many did just that - described as "giving the government a kicking"?? Although I wonder if there would have been the same opposite effect if Cameron had been a leaver?

Not just that but Lib Dems who had been ministers in the coalition government and Labour MPs who had been ministers under Blair seemed to all back remain. I wonder if the SNP being pro-EU but anti-Westminster was behind Scotland being a lot more pro-remain than they were in the previous EC referendum.

 

[Senex]

I really don’t get what a general election would solve. It’s partly that election which May bungled which has contributed to things being a mess on the Irish front due to the DUP’s influence.

The whole reason why the issue was dealt with via a referendum was because it really doesn’t align to party lines. Whatever hard feelings I might have towards one side or other over Brexit I’d feel very uncomfortable being asked to choose between parties, and potentially having to vote for a party so wouldn’t otherwise be choosing. Many people would feel likewise, which would likely lead to another messy result.

I too don't see what a general election would solve. Although there are many very serious issues where the two parties disagree and propose alternative solutions, any immediate general election would inevitably focus on the huge constitutional issue of EU membership/relationship into the future. Whilst we have some vague idea of where the Tories are trying to go, we don't have any clear ideas of what Labour would be offering as an alternative, so on the great matter of the day we would have no clear idea of where one of the two potential parties of government stood. And if Labour ended up at least tacitly backing the Tory approach, we should have no way of expressing a choice. That really does leave only another referendum as a way forward—unless we really are to assume that all who voted Leave voted thus to be out at all costs, no matter how destructive in all sorts of ways getting out might be.

 

[pemma]

Surely the only logical step to take is to ask the EU to delay the leaving date and for a cross party Brexit committee to be set up. The DUP confidence and supply arrangement will not get a good Brexit deal agreed and accepted by parliament. If on the other hand Labour MPs are involved in the Brexit plans there's a high chance of getting some form of deal agreed and accepted by parliament even if the hard line Tory Brexiteers don't like it.

 

[pemma]

Just seen on Twitter that Susie Dent's word of the day on Countdown was mumpsimus - someone who insists that they are right despite clear evidence to the contrary. Given Countdown is filmed in advance it's seem some strange coincidence that particular episode was broadcast on the same day as Theresa May told us the EU will accept the Chequer's proposal despite the EU saying they will not.

 

[Howardh]

If all of us can put our differences aside for one moment and being practical - if May decides she only now has two options (never mind what the rest of us feel) which are an election or a referendum - both have difficulties.
Word has it that it takes 6 months to prepare a referendum. Why? No idea, I would have thought 6 weeks like an election! So that's leaving a decision very late unless A50 is extended.
A general election probably wouldn't solve the issue as the Tories are split and Labour are, er, split. And we could again end up with a coaliton muddying the waters even further.
Also a general election based on Brexit means a ton of other important stuff such as the NHS, social care, policing, transport etc etc gets brushed aside.
So neither are partucularly a good choice, yet if we are heading towards a deal-less future which possible youldn't get through Parliament...then what??
Think May's gonna have to accept whatever's thrown at her, can't see any other options, unless Kent and the south east WANT to be choked by lorries queuing up to leave the country?

 

[trash80]

May is giving a statement at 1:45, hopefully to resign but she'll probably try and perpetuate the fantasy her plan is still viable

 

[pemma]

Also a general election based on Brexit means a ton of other important stuff such as the NHS, social care, policing, transport etc etc gets brushed aside.

As proved by the Lib Dems at the last election basing your election campaign around being anti-Brexit doesn't win you many votes, despite enough people wanting to remain to have a landslide majority in the House of Parliament (remember it's 50% of seats required not 50% of votes required.) Labour won additional support by being the anti-austerity party not due to their Brexit stance. It also be argued that's why UKIP did very well in the last EU elections but have done badly in every General Election.

 

[Howardh]

As proved by the Lib Dems at the last election basing your election campaign around being anti-Brexit doesn't win you many votes, despite enough people wanting to remain to have a landslide majority in the House of Parliament (remember it's 50% of seats required not 50% of votes required.) Labour won additional support by being the anti-austerity party not due to their Brexit stance. It also be argued that's why UKIP did very well in the last EU elections but have done badly in every General Election.

How much is that down to the voting system? Proportionally the LD's should have 48 seats, and probably many more if people felt their vote counted. PR would also help UKIP of course so this isn't a blinkered thing! The Tories would have 275 and Labour 260 and the SNP 20, so the Tories wouldn't be in power if the left and centre joined a coalition. UKIP would have 12 seats, 12 more than they have now!!

 

[dosxuk]

May is giving a statement at 1:45, hopefully to resign but she'll probably try and perpetuate the fantasy her plan is still viable

How did you guess?

 

[Bromley boy]

If all of us can put our differences aside for one moment and being practical - if May decides she only now has two options (never mind what the rest of us feel) which are an election or a referendum - both have difficulties.
Word has it that it takes 6 months to prepare a referendum. Why? No idea, I would have thought 6 weeks like an election! So that's leaving a decision very late unless A50 is extended.
A general election probably wouldn't solve the issue as the Tories are split and Labour are, er, split. And we could again end up with a coaliton muddying the waters even further.
Also a general election based on Brexit means a ton of other important stuff such as the NHS, social care, policing, transport etc etc gets brushed aside.
So neither are partucularly a good choice, yet if we are heading towards a deal-less future which possible youldn't get through Parliament...then what??
Think May's gonna have to accept whatever's thrown at her, can't see any other options, unless Kent and the south east WANT to be choked by lorries queuing up to leave the country?

I think the options are:
- leave with no deal;
- extend negotiations by mutual agreement with the EU;
- something being thrashed out at the last minute.

My money is on the last one but, if that can’t be achieved, we may well end up with the first, and just have to make it work.

As you say there’s no appetite for an election or another referendum other than from hard line remainders who want to prevent the U.K. from leaving the EU.

 

[Howardh]

I think the options are:
- leave with no deal;
- extend negotiations by mutual agreement with the EU;
- something being thrashed out at the last minute.

My money is on the last one but, if that can’t be achieved, we may well end up with the first, and just have to make it work.

As you say there’s no appetite for an election or another referendum other than from hard line remainders who want to prevent the U.K. from leaving the EU.

Yes, but what's the appetite for a no-deal?


What a horrible mess we've got ourselves into. At least the folks in Kent can make a few bob selling sandwiches to the lorry drivers in the queue. Oh, and the £'s down again, every time May opens her mouth it tanks. You think someone would mention it to her!

Meanwhile **searches for property in the Republic**

 

[Bromley boy]

1/ Project Fear is actually Project Reality
2/ The Leave campaign has been proven to have broken the rules
3/ Our Government are even more incompetent than we realised and are incapable of negotisting an exit
4/ The EU have managed to stick together and negotiate as one block, so the concerns of German car workers and French wine sellers are less important than the Single Market, contrary to everything we were told
5/ Getting a deal is not going to be the easiest thing in tge world
6/ We will never get the fabled £350 million
7/ The Northern Ireland border (and Gibraltar, but that's being ignored for now) is a major hurdle, not a minor bump
8/ Those in power are more concerned about staying in power than doing what's right for country and it's population

1. That sounds more like opinion than fact;
2. Nobody cares other than remainers (and it was only one of the leave campaigns, and remain did similar and had the backing of the establishment, yet still managed to lose).
3. Agreed!
4. We still don’t know where things will actually end up with negotiations. Much of what we hear from the EU is negotiating bluster.
5. I don’t think anyone ever thought it would be the “easiest thing in the world” to get a deal. I’d rather leave with no deal than be bullied into remaining.
6. If we leave with no deal we won’t (or shouldn’t) have to pay the “divorce bill” so there’s a substantial saving.
7. Not from where I’m sitting. The NI border issue is only a problem because of the DUP. As for Gibraltar, I couldn’t care less.
8. Agreed!

Avoiding a second vote simply because we've already had one is the equivalent of hearing a fire alarm, deciding to leave one way, and ignoring the increased smoke, heat and flames. Surely if the evidence starts stacking up that this might not be the best idea after all, it's only proper to re-evaluate that decision?

I don’t think that’s happened at all. You want a second vote because you didn’t agree with the result of the first one.

It was always known that leaving with no deal was a possibility. The remain campaign painted a very bleak picture of what would happen immediately in the event of a leave vote, much of which hasn’t come to pass.

It seems that a lot of remainders actively want Brexit to be a disaster so that they can say “we told you so” (I’m not necessarily saying you’re in that camp, but it’s becoming increasingly noticeable).

With Chequers dead, there's now three options on the table: carry on and crash out, make the tories unelectable forever; put the option to crash out to parliament, lose and call a general election; put the option to crash out to parliament, lose and call a new referendum. None of those options look good for May's continued governence.

From what was discussed before I seem to remember crashing out isn’t an option that needs to be approved by Parliament , it’s the default position of no deal is reached.

 

[pemma]

At least the folks in Kent can make a few bob selling sandwiches to the lorry drivers in the queue.

That explains the PM's Africa visit, to do some research on how sole traders sell food in queuing traffic!

 

[Bromley boy]

Yes, but what's the appetite for a no-deal?

I don’t think either side actively want no deal but between the EU’s intransigence and the U.K. government’s incompetence that might be where we end up.

What a horrible mess we've got ourselves into. At least the folks in Kent can make a few bob selling sandwiches to the lorry drivers in the queue. Oh, and the £'s down again, every time May opens her mouth it tanks. You think someone would mention it to her!

Yes she really isn’t very good at her job, is she!? I feel sorry for her on one level but it’s amazing how bad she has proved to be as PM. Her saving grace, and the only reason she’s still in power, is the abysmal state the Labour Party is in these days.

Meanwhile **searches for property in the Republic**

Which republic? Ireland, Argentina, Congo, China? Will they take you?

That explains the PM's Africa visit, to do some research on how sole traders sell food in queuing traffic!

Biltong is quite popular over there maybe there’s a new import opportunity post brexit.

 

[Howardh]

Which republic? Ireland, Argentina, Congo, China? Will they take you?

Ireland, on the grounds that I can't get a Visa for the People's Republic of Yorkshire, who thought they were voting to leave the UK

Serious question alert - as Bermuda is an UK outpost, do we as Brits have freedom of movement to live there, retire there and maybe search for work?

 

[bnm]

Theresa May comes out fighting. Unfortunately she's a bantamweight facing a heavyweight. She ain't gonna win.

Instead she's determined to continue steering the ship toward the iceberg, despite having time to avoid it.

 

[Howardh]

Theresa May comes out fighting. Unfortunately she's a bantamweight facing a heavyweight. She ain't gonna win.
Instead she's determined to continue steering the ship toward the iceberg, despite having time to avoid it.

Boris did say Brexit was gonna be a "Titanic success".