EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Bromley boy]

Ireland, on the grounds that I can't get a Visa for the People's Republic of Yorkshire, who thought they were voting to leave the UK

Serious question alert - as Bermuda is an UK outpost, do we as Brits have freedom of movement to live there, retire there and maybe search for work?

Oh no! Yorkshire is one of bits of the UK I want to retain! Maybe we should give them another vote until they get it right.

Re. Bermuda, I don’t think so, at least not in the same way as EU freedom of movement. Funnily enough I know a Brit who has lived and worked out there for several years.

At least you’d get decent weather.

 

[Howardh]

Oh no! Yorkshire is one of bits of the UK I want to retain! Maybe we should give them another vote until they get it right.

Re. Bermuda, I don’t think so, at least not in the same way as EU freedom of movement. Funnily enough I know a Brit who has lived and worked out there for several years.

At least you’d get decent weather.

The biggest issue with Bermuda is there isn't a NHS, it's like the US where it's all virtually private and has to be paid for via insurance, which would be a huge worry (and cost) especially if struck down with dementia. Otherwise it's expensive..but pretty perfect!! All flights to the UK land at Gatwick at silly-o'clock which is off-putting for a holiday there when you live oop North. Where's easyjet when you need them?

 

[bramling]

Yes she really isn’t very good at her job, is she!? I feel sorry for her on one level but it’s amazing how bad she has proved to be as PM. Her saving grace, and the only reason she’s still in power, is the abysmal state the Labour Party is in these days.

Unfortunately this really is the main problem.

Her fate was outwardly sealed after that shambolic general election - the only reason she survived is because there's no obvious replacement candidate and an apprehension over change.

Arguably the naivety of some of the electorate didn't help -- how many people who voted Labour gave a thought to the possibility of their vote resulting in a DUP-supported government?

 

[bramling]

There's a point there about party lines - how many voted against the EU simply because Cameron was a Tory MP and for remaining? At the time we read that many did just that - described as "giving the government a kicking"?? Although I wonder if there would have been the same opposite effect if Cameron had been a leaver?

I really don't get the point about wanting to give the government a kicking.

I'm genuinely interested to hear evidence that people did vote in this way. I can't claim to know any leave voters who thought that way - perhaps a few for whom kicking Cameron was an added side-effect bonus, but no more than that. Cameron and the Conservative government weren't even particularly unpopular at the time - he'd only just won a general election, so it's not like the painful malaise which affected the last years of the Blair/Brown era.

 

[bramling]

If all of us can put our differences aside for one moment and being practical - if May decides she only now has two options (never mind what the rest of us feel) which are an election or a referendum - both have difficulties.
Word has it that it takes 6 months to prepare a referendum. Why? No idea, I would have thought 6 weeks like an election! So that's leaving a decision very late unless A50 is extended.
A general election probably wouldn't solve the issue as the Tories are split and Labour are, er, split. And we could again end up with a coaliton muddying the waters even further.
Also a general election based on Brexit means a ton of other important stuff such as the NHS, social care, policing, transport etc etc gets brushed aside.
So neither are partucularly a good choice, yet if we are heading towards a deal-less future which possible youldn't get through Parliament...then what??
Think May's gonna have to accept whatever's thrown at her, can't see any other options, unless Kent and the south east WANT to be choked by lorries queuing up to leave the country?

Personally I'm happy to run with no deal and sort out the consequences. We still have six months to make preparations - although unfortunately again one does worry about the competence of this government in doing that.

 

[Bromley boy]

Personally I'm happy to run with no deal and sort out the consequences. We still have six months to make preparations - although unfortunately again one does worry about the competence of this government in doing that.

Agreed.

Interesting to note that the U.K. government has unilaterally offered to protect the rights of EU citizens living in the U.K.

I don’t believe we have heard similar assurances from the EU about Brits living in Europe.

 

[pemma]

The biggest issue with Bermuda is there isn't a NHS, it's like the US where it's all virtually private and has to be paid for via insurance, which would be a huge worry (and cost) especially if struck down with dementia. Otherwise it's expensive..but pretty perfect!! All flights to the UK land at Gatwick at silly-o'clock which is off-putting for a holiday there when you live oop North. Where's easyjet when you need them?

Well Ryanair have been promising budget transatlantic flights for years but don't seem to have made any progress. Wasn't the Dreamliner aircraft supposed to significantly reduce the costs of transatlantic travel?

Easyjet are probably busy restructuring so their non-UK flights are all moved to their new Austrian subsidiary. Based on one recent TV documentary on Easyjet it seems a lot of British pilots get jobs flying non-UK flights like France to Germany, presumably that'll change when it's an office in Austria in charge of non-UK flights instead of one in England.

 

[Ianno87]

Personally I'm happy to run with no deal and sort out the consequences. We still have six months to make preparations - although unfortunately again one does worry about the competence of this government in doing that.

The prospect of what "No Deal" means in its most literal sense scares the bejeezsus out of me.

 

[yorksrob]

Unfortunately this really is the main problem.

Her fate was outwardly sealed after that shambolic general election - the only reason she survived is because there's no obvious replacement candidate and an apprehension over change.

Arguably the naivety of some of the electorate didn't help -- how many people who voted Labour gave a thought to the possibility of their vote resulting in a DUP-supported government?

I don't think you can blame the Tory agreement with the DUP on "naivete". Such an outcome would have been highly unlikely in most circumstances, and what would you have expected left leaning voters to do anyway . Vote Tory to stop the DUP getting in ?

For the record, I don't object to NI voters having more of a say in the running of what is their country as much as the English, Scottish and Welsh, afterall. It's just an uncomfortable fact that voters on both sides of that divide have migrated towards more hard line parties over the past twenty years.

 

[bramling]

I don't think you can blame the Tory agreement with the DUP on "naivete". Such an outcome would have been highly unlikely in most circumstances, and what would you have expected left leaning voters to do anyway . Vote Tory to stop the DUP getting in ?

For the record, I don't object to NI voters having more of a say in the running of what is their country as much as the English, Scottish and Welsh, afterall. It's just an uncomfortable fact that voters on both sides of that divide have migrated towards more hard line parties over the past twenty years.

I think that’s a lot of the problem - thinking back to the 90s the DUP were generally regarded as fairly hardline - perhaps even bordering on extreme. I find them barely more palatable now.

Nonetheless, I agree that if that’s what NI elects then it’s quite reasonable for them to have a proportionate level of U.K. influence. The problem we have now is they have rather more than that - the stability of our government depends on them, and that is not a good position at the best of times, let alone at a time when we need good solid government.

At the end of the day, yes perhaps the electorate could have been smarter. I voted Conservative, and this was despite being very unhappy with elements of May’s campaign, both what it lacked and due to bad stuff like the social care proposals. I’d vote Conservative again tomorrow, again despite being very dissatisfied with the competence of the current government, simply because at present I feel they’re the best of the bunch, and I’d rather see a majority government than another DUP arrangement. One wonders what led to the better-than-expected Labour vote last time. The result perceived as a done deal? May’s disastrous campaign? Protest votes? More ethnic minorities voting? Brexit blurring party lines? Remainers fearing Labour less due to Corbyn’s relative silence on Brexit?

 

[bramling]

The prospect of what "No Deal" means in its most literal sense scares the bejeezsus out of me.

The vibes I’m picking up on the street is that people are surprised and shocked at how difficult it appears to be proving to extricate ourselves from the EU, leading people to wish we’d simply never joined in the first place. Of course it doesn’t help that the EU has changed over the years into something rather different to what Britain joined.

Perhaps the talk of “deal” is the wrong language to be using.

 

[yorksrob]

I think that’s a lot of the problem - thinking back to the 90s the DUP were generally regarded as fairly hardline - perhaps even bordering on extreme. I find them barely more palatable now.

Nonetheless, I agree that if that’s what NI elects then it’s quite reasonable for them to have a proportionate level of U.K. influence. The problem we have now is they have rather more than that - the stability of our government depends on them, and that is not a good position at the best of times, let alone at a time when we need good solid government.

At the end of the day, yes perhaps the electorate could have been smarter. I voted Conservative, and this was despite being very unhappy with elements of May’s campaign, both what it lacked and due to bad stuff like the social care proposals. I’d vote Conservative again tomorrow, again despite being very dissatisfied with the competence of the current government, simply because at present I feel they’re the best of the bunch, and I’d rather see a majority government than another DUP arrangement. One wonders what led to the better-than-expected Labour vote last time. The result perceived as a done deal? May’s disastrous campaign? Protest votes? More ethnic minorities voting? Brexit blurring party lines? Remainers fearing Labour less due to Corbyn’s relative silence on Brexit?

I suspect that what led to the strength of labour support was primarily dissatisfaction with the Tory mantra of austerity. I like to think that part of it was dissatisfaction with the obsession with privatisation and the free market.

I think in traditionally labour areas this lead to some of the Brexit vote. I certainly don't blame the DUP for taking the chance to get a bigger slice of the pie for NI. I do think things would have been easier for commuity relations if we'd been dealing with the 'official' unionist/SDLP rather than the DUP/Sinn Fein.

Fundamentally, I don't think it is realistic to expect all voters to vote Tory to be "smart", certainly not in the context of the last decade.

 

[EM2]

The vibes I’m picking up on the street is that people are surprised and shocked at how difficult it appears to be proving to extricate ourselves from the EU

It is not difficult to do this. Activate Article 50, wait two years, and it's done. What *is* difficult is to extricate ourselves from the EU, while maintaining a number of 'red lines' that the EU would never agree to and to do that without driving the country into an abyss.

 

[Howardh]

Well Ryanair have been promising budget transatlantic flights for years but don't seem to have made any progress. Wasn't the Dreamliner aircraft supposed to significantly reduce the costs of transatlantic travel?

Easyjet are probably busy restructuring so their non-UK flights are all moved to their new Austrian subsidiary. Based on one recent TV documentary on Easyjet it seems a lot of British pilots get jobs flying non-UK flights like France to Germany, presumably that'll change when it's an office in Austria in charge of non-UK flights instead of one in England.

It's not even trans-Atlantic, more like three-quarters Atlantic!! I admit I know little about the western side of the Atlantic, but aren't there many a scheduled flight to the Carribean Islands much further south - using what I would call *ordinary* aircraft? Please educate me!
I have read (maybe incorrectly) that smaller jets - with only 2 engines I think (??) can now cross the Atlantic, so if so then there's opportunity for Easyjet, Ryanair etc if their planes can hold sufficient fuel.
Do we have an air correspondent here who can put me right??

 

[bramling]

I suspect that what led to the strength of labour support was primarily dissatisfaction with the Tory mantra of austerity. I like to think that part of it was dissatisfaction with the obsession with privatisation and the free market.

I think in traditionally labour areas this lead to some of the Brexit vote. I certainly don't blame the DUP for taking the chance to get a bigger slice of the pie for NI. I do think things would have been easier for commuity relations if we'd been dealing with the 'official' unionist/SDLP rather than the DUP/Sinn Fein.

Fundamentally, I don't think it is realistic to expect all voters to vote Tory to be "smart", certainly not in the context of the last decade.

I don’t buy it was austerity. We had this right through the 2010-15 government, yet Cameron won a majority - albeit with a decent manifesto which has many nuggets to appeal to many people. I think many people have come to accept that austerity is a necessary reaction to the over-indulgence of the Blair years.

Something I forgot off my earlier list of suggestions was of course the decline of UKIP. It was of course generally felt that UKIP has taken votes off the Conservatives, which with hindsight may have been a misjudgement - many Labour voters seemed to have supported UKIP in its glory years.

 

[Howardh]

It is not difficult to do this. Activate Article 50, wait two years, and it's done. What *is* difficult is to extricate ourselves from the EU, while maintaining a number of 'red lines' that the EU would never agree to and to do that without driving the country into an abyss.

It makes it rather awkward when you say - and put it into law I think - that there's no way there will be a hard border on Ireland and then when you leave the EU without a deal that's probably the very first thing that would need doing....

 

[bramling]

It is not difficult to do this. Activate Article 50, wait two years, and it's done. What *is* difficult is to extricate ourselves from the EU, while maintaining a number of 'red lines' that the EU would never agree to and to do that without driving the country into an abyss.

... so leading people to conclude that it’s the EU which is the cause of the mess, and thus to be as resolved as ever to leaving.

That’s the vibe I’m picking up anyway.

 

[bramling]

It makes it rather awkward when you say - and put it into law I think - that there's no way there will be a hard border on Ireland and then when you leave the EU without a deal that's probably the very first thing that would need doing....

It’s that red line of not having a border which seems to have caused all the problems. Just have the border, and look at what can be done to ease the impact on people / goods as far as possible. I totally reject the idea that there shouldn’t be a border simply for symbolic reasons.

If NI wishes to reconsider its position as part of the U.K. as a result of a border then so be it.

 

[nidave]

Why not ask the people of n. Ireland if they want to gave a special relationship with the eu and UK. Not the dup but the people. I suspect it would supprise most.

 

[yorksrob]

I don’t buy it was austerity. We had this right through the 2010-15 government, yet Cameron won a majority - albeit with a decent manifesto which has many nuggets to appeal to many people. I think many people have come to accept that austerity is a necessary reaction to the over-indulgence of the Blair years.

Something I forgot off my earlier list of suggestions was of course the decline of UKIP. It was of course generally felt that UKIP has taken votes off the Conservatives, which with hindsight may have been a misjudgement - many Labour voters seemed to have supported UKIP in its glory years.

No, I think that given the financial crisis in 2008, people were generally expecting to tighten their belts for a few years. It's when it went on, and on, and on that it started to seem like Tory ideology. People, quite rightly IMO smelt a rat.

 

[Ianno87]

... so leading people to conclude that it’s the EU which is the cause of the mess, and thus to be as resolved as ever to leaving.

That’s the vibe I’m picking up anyway.

No, in my view its the UK trying to cherry pick the bits of the EU that suits itself, when we already had a special arrangement that was a reasonable (if not perfect) compromise on a number of things, but invariably intertwined ourselves with the EU to a large degree.

 

[nidave]

... so leading people to conclude that it’s the EU which is the cause of the mess, and thus to be as resolved as ever to leaving.

That’s the vibe I’m picking up anyway.

The uk inserted the clause of 2 years. The UK wants to leave. The UK won't accept the 4 pillars of the EU and is calling them difficult for not chanchingbthat stance. It's the UK who is leaving. The UK should have had a plan other than "the eu will roll over"

I find it staggering that people think that it's wrong the eu is going to do what it must to protect the eu but fine for the UK to do what it must to not end up as a tin pot title country.

Thatcher (am really not a fan of hers) fought really hard to get the best for the UK and she understood that the EU was important and worthwhile. May doesn't.

 

[nidave]

It’s that red line of not having a border which seems to have caused all the problems. Just have the border, and look at what can be done to ease the impact on people / goods as far as possible. I totally reject the idea that there shouldn’t be a border simply for symbolic reasons.

If NI wishes to reconsider its position as part of the U.K. as a result of a border then so be it.

The good Friday agreement states there can't be a border in the way your saying. So your willing to destroy the peace process that I and others voted for just so you can leave the EU.

 

[yorksrob]

Why not ask the people of n. Ireland if they want to gave a special relationship with the eu and UK. Not the dup but the people. I suspect it would supprise most.

People in NI voted for the DUP. As a resident, do you think they'll vote for someone different next time ?

 

[yorksrob]

The uk inserted the clause of 2 years. The UK wants to leave. The UK won't accept the 4 pillars of the EU and is calling them difficult for not chanchingbthat stance. It's the UK who is leaving. The UK should have had a plan other than "the eu will roll over"

I find it staggering that people think that it's wrong the eu is going to do what it must to protect the eu but fine for the UK to do what it must to not end up as a tin pot title country.

Thatcher (am really not a fan of hers) fought really hard to get the best for the UK and she understood that the EU was important and worthwhile. May doesn't.

I voted remain in the end (because I believe in an easy life for Blighty primarily) but even now I'm not convinced that the free movement of capital is a good thing.

 

[nidave]

Personally I'm happy to run with no deal and sort out the consequences. We still have six months to make preparations - although unfortunately again one does worry about the competence of this government in doing that.

Do you have the slightest idea what that really means. Its terrifying for those that deal with even the tineist bits of eu departments.

 

[bramling]

No, I think that given the financial crisis in 2008, people were generally expecting to tighten their belts for a few years. It's when it went on, and on, and on that it started to seem like Tory ideology. People, quite rightly IMO smelt a rat.

The Conservatives have always been a party of austerity, to a greater or lesser extent - and I just don’t buy that this in itself caused a change in public mood in the space of two years. What may have changed I suppose is the presence of Corbyn shamelessly dropping any New Labour pretence of attempting to be prudent with public spending.

 

[Mintona]

I’m going to miss food, and fuel, and medicine, and power, and flights, and anything else we currently have.

How is anything going to be better.

 

[yorksrob]

The Conservatives have always been a party of austerity, to a greater or lesser extent - and I just don’t buy that this in itself caused a change in public mood in the space of two years. What may have changed I suppose is the presence of Corbyn shamelessly dropping any New Labour pretence of attempting to be prudent with public spending.

Well, there is the fact that a lot of people never believed in New Labour in the first place (or indeed the Tory ideology of privatising everything that isn't screwed down). But I do think that austerity has definitely had an effect above and beyond the underlying animosity.

 

[pemma]

People in NI voted for the DUP.

300,000 voted for the DUP, half a million NI voters voted for other parties. I also don't think they expected the DUP to walk out on the power sharing arrangement for Stormont putting Northern Ireland under direct rule from Westminster.

Imagine if a pro-EU party had won the 2017 General Election with 37% of the votes and then said it was ignoring the EU referendum result. That's a similar situation to the one Northern Ireland is in.