EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[bramling]

The 'why?' is in my previous post. I have explained my reasons for voting the way I did numerous times in this thread. I can live with the result. Although it would be a far easier thing to live with with hindsight. Leave lied. Remain were incompetent. Those charged with carrying out the supposed will of the people are an absolute shower of 5h!t. The referendum was unnecessary. David Cameron didn't solve the problem in his party once and for all. He just extended it to the country. And those that came to the fore after he slunk off are even more incompetent than him.

A representative democracy elects politicians to make the big decisions on behalf of the electorate. Major policies should be in a manifesto. Then put before Parliament by the governing party. "Vote for us and we'll introduce legislation to keep you in/take you out of Europe." Referenda are for plebiscite democracies. The UK is not such.

I really get sick of hearing this point that the referendum was only to resolve a Conservative party internal divide, as though all those UKIP votes around that time were just a figment of imagination.

Cameron may have made a mess of the referendum in failing to anticipate a leave vote, but he was absolutely right in calling it.

I take it no one thinks the Scottish referendum was some kind of attempt to resolve an internal party issue?!

 

[NSEFAN]

I really get sick of hearing this point that the referendum was only to resolve a Conservative party internal divide, as though all those UKIP votes around that time were just a figment of imagination.

Cameron may have made a mess of the referendum in failing to anticipate a leave vote, but he was absolutely right in calling it.

I take it no one thinks the Scottish referendum was some kind of attempt to resolve an internal party issue?!

Cameron's reasons for calling a referendum don't necessarily align with whether it was right or wrong. Indeed, given the result he will be seen as "right" in the eyes of leavers and "wrong" in the eyes of remainers. This doesn't change the fact that politics is all about strategy, and its unlikely that Cameron would have called the referendum unless he thought he'd get the result he wanted. The fact he quickly scampered off after the result and has remained extremely quiet since tells us just how badly he'd misjudged it.

The same goes for Sturgeon. She will aim to call another referendum if she thinks she has a good chance of getting an independence vote, which may well be the case if relations with the EU go sour and/or the economy tanks.

 

[EM2]

I really get sick of hearing this point that the referendum was only to resolve a Conservative party internal divide, as though all those UKIP votes around that time were just a figment of imagination.

How many MPs did UKIP have at that time? What influence did they really have on UK politics?

I take it no one thinks the Scottish referendum was some kind of attempt to resolve an internal party issue?!

No, because I don't think that there was any internal issue within the SNP.

 

[bramling]

Cameron's reasons for calling a referendum don't necessarily align with whether it was right or wrong. Indeed, given the result he will be seen as "right" in the eyes of leavers and "wrong" in the eyes of remainers. This doesn't change the fact that politics is all about strategy, and its unlikely that Cameron would have called the referendum unless he thought he'd get the result he wanted. The fact he quickly scampered off after the result and has remained extremely quiet since tells us just how badly he'd misjudged it.

The same goes for Sturgeon. She will aim to call another referendum if she thinks she has a good chance of getting an independence vote, which may well be the case if relations with the EU go sour and/or the economy tanks.

I suspect Sturgeon is at the point where she’d likely take *any* opportunity to push for an independence referendum as a shot to nothing. I get the feeling as a brand Sturgeon, if not the SNP, is at the point where it is turning stale, so any chance to do a referendum would probably be worthwhile.

One of the most hypocritically divisive politicians ever.

 

[bramling]

How many MPs did UKIP have at that time? What influence did they really have on UK politics?

No, because I don't think that there was any internal issue within the SNP.

I wasn’t actually referring to Sturgeon, as that referendum wasn’t her doing even if she called for it.

UKIP may not have had a meaningful number of MPs, but that was a function of the first-past-the-post electoral system. However they certainly had a meaningful vote share, which could certainly have been enough to affect the two main parties in marginal constituencies - especially as the thinking at the time was that UKIP were more likely to be taking Conservative votes (something subsequently seen to be an exaggerated threat as UKIP were clearly taking Labour votes too - as well as perhaps attracting people who might not have voted at all?)

 

[Howardh]

The latest set of "warnings" suggest you might not be able to access Netflix in the EU - good grief that's just silly, even if true (??) there are ways round geoblocking to access a service you have paid for - although if on holiday why would one want to spend hours on Netflix??

But more sensible is ensuring you have a minimum of three months on the passport. Most countries outside the EU it's six, although frequent travellers to the EU might not renew until the last moment, as you can currently enter virtually up to the date of expiry.

Interested to learn, on the other hand, that we may "ban" EU tourists who wish to use their normal ID card - travelling around the EU means they don't require passports, but I would have thought - austerity and all that - we wouldn't be wanting to turn away tourists coming to spend here just because they only have their legit ID card. That would be our decision and I hope the home office says "yup, ID cards will do" > let's face it, anyone with an ID card will get into the Republic and cross into the UK unchecked anyway, so the "ban" would technically be futile.

 

[radamfi]

It only applies in the EU I suppose as we are leaving it

It also applies in Switzerland, Serbia, Macedonia and Turkey.

 

[Ianno87]

The latest set of "warnings" suggest you might not be able to access Netflix in the EU - good grief that's just silly, even if true (??) there are ways round geoblocking to access a service you have paid for - although if on holiday why would one want to spend hours on Netflix??

.

You can also travel to the EU not on holiday... on business for example. When a bit of Netflix in the hotel in the evening isn't exactly daft.

 

[Howardh]

Theresa May's Brexit deal is hanging by a thread as Conservative MPs plot to install David Davis as PM

https://www.businessinsider.com/the...threaten-mutiny-david-davis-2018-10?r=UK&IR=T

If that happened and we had "his" Brexit I seriously think that would see me off. The Republic of Ireland is looking a very attractive proposition right now, so is the Isle of Man which isn't too far away and the UK government can barely touch you. I can have my pensions and bank interest sent there, my dividends.....

 

[Senex]

https://www.businessinsider.com/the...threaten-mutiny-david-davis-2018-10?r=UK&IR=T

If that happened and we had "his" Brexit I seriously think that would see me off. The Republic of Ireland is looking a very attractive proposition right now, so is the Isle of Man which isn't too far away and the UK government can barely touch you. I can have my pensions and bank interest sent there, my dividends.....

I only wish the Irish citizenship offer didn't stop at those with an Irish grandfather but went back one further generation to those with an Irish great-grandfather ....

 

[mmh]

I only wish the Irish citizenship offer didn't stop at those with an Irish grandfather but went back one further generation to those with an Irish great-grandfather ....

Any British citizen who wants to become Irish can do so. You have the right to move there and work there, live there for five years and you can apply for citizenship.

 

[Howardh]

Any British citizen who wants to become Irish can do so. You have the right to move there and work there, live there for five years and you can apply for citizenship.

The application procedure is exactly the same of anyone whether they are British, European or from the rest of the world. 5 years residence, and then you have to go through a rigourous procedure + pay a large sum, in which the unwanted can be weeded out. Being British and being in the CTA does not give us any advantage over anyone else if we wanted that Irish passport. Of course we DO keep the right to go and live/work there permanently without question (as the Irish do here and as we can in the EU until we leave) and even vote (anyone??) however we would do that under our own UK passport.

There's one Tory MP (on the nolan show - BBC Radio 5) who thinks anyone "English" can just stroll into the Republic and be given an Irish passport at once if they want. These guys are in charge.....

 

[Senex]

There's one Tory MP (on the nolan show - BBC Radio 5) who thinks anyone "English" can just stroll into the Republic and be given an Irish passport at once if they want. These guys are in charge.....

But then if you listen to a whole string of Tories being interviewed it's astonishing how many of them seem to speak as if Ireland were still a colony, or an ex-colony that owed the UK, rather than an independent nation and a member of the EU surely owing a far greater loyalty and commitment to the EU than towards England as a centuries-long pretty dreadful colonial overlord and Scotland which provided that large community of ultra-Presbyterians in the norther-eastern corner.

 

[trash80]

Brexit is floundering on the Northern Ireland question, how strange it never seemed to pop up in the referendum campaign.

 

[greyman42]

But then if you listen to a whole string of Tories being interviewed it's astonishing how many of them seem to speak as if Ireland were still a colony, or an ex-colony that owed the UK, rather than an independent nation and a member of the EU surely owing a far greater loyalty and commitment to the EU than towards England as a centuries-long pretty dreadful colonial overlord and Scotland which provided that large community of ultra-Presbyterians in the norther-eastern corner.

I seem to remember that the UK paid its fair share to the Irish government to keep it afloat when the economy went down the pan in 2010.

 

[thejuggler]

Just caught the end of the news and saw our leader has spent time 'updating' Parliament by speaking a lot and saying not a lot.

What it seems she has done is placed the tin can in the middle of the road. The next stage is to discuss amongst themselves how far it is going to be kicked.

 

[Howardh]

Brexit is floundering on the Northern Ireland question, how strange it never seemed to pop up in the referendum campaign.

It did.
1. I was at a hustings with my Brexiteer Tory MP and thoroughly explained to him and his band of followers how, and why, the Irish Border would either halt or severely restrict Brexit should we vote to leave...
2. Ditto on the BBC news the day before the referendum.
Both were brushed aside as unimportant and technology would provide a solution should one be necessary.
Of course I'm not an expert so what do I know?
How do you spell "vindication"???

 

[thejuggler]

Sounds very much like the debate I heard yesterday evening on 5live, legitimate significant concerns raised about a number of subjects brushed off by 'experts'.

Northern Ireland not a problem because it isn't for Norway and Sweden, Switzerland and Austria. Forgetting if course there is a hard border between those Countries and of course they don't have a separate internationally recognised agreement which can't just be forgotten.

Similar on climate change. If the world's population is increasing we need to reduce consumption. Experts view 'Japan is experiencing a reduction in population' so its not an issue. The UK is a small country whatever we do makes no difference, ignoring the concept of leading by example to encourage others to follow suit.

These are the fools that are leading us.

 

[AlterEgo]

Brexit is floundering on the Northern Ireland question, how strange it never seemed to pop up in the referendum campaign.

Small, difficult and far away. It was ever thus.

Reunify now.

 

[Howardh]

Small, difficult and far away. It was ever thus.
Reunify now.

What a strange turnaround if Irelend becomes united yet the UK splits apart at the seams.

Now if the EU had been forcing us to do that......

 

[bramling]

What a strange turnaround if Irelend becomes united yet the UK splits apart at the seams.

Now if the EU had been forcing us to do that......

Personally I'm increasingly coming to the opinion that NI needs to make up its mind rather than sitting on the proverbial fence trying to have a cake and eat it at the same time.

UK / Hard border with ROI / No EU

or

Part of ROI / Hard border with UK / EU

(or, perhaps)

Sovereign NI / Choose border with UK / Choose border with ROI (but not soft border with both) / Choose EU

Patience elsewhere in the UK may start to run thin over time.

 

[Ianno87]

Personally I'm increasingly coming to the opinion that NI needs to make up its mind rather than sitting on the proverbial fence trying to have a cake and eat it at the same time.

UK / Hard border with ROI / No EU

or

Part of ROI / Hard border with UK / EU

(or, perhaps)

Sovereign NI / Choose border with UK / Choose border with ROI (but not soft border with both) / Choose EU

Patience elsewhere in the UK may start to run thin over time.

Why should NI *have* to resign itself to one of those? It didn't vote to leave, so why should it be f*cked over by the rest of the UK? The PM should represent the best interests of all of the UK, not sacrifice NI for the good* of everyone else.

*Not actually the good of everyone else.

 

[Howardh]

Personally I'm increasingly coming to the opinion that NI needs to make up its mind rather than sitting on the proverbial fence trying to have a cake and eat it at the same time.

UK / Hard border with ROI / No EU

or

Part of ROI / Hard border with UK / EU

Patience elsewhere in the UK may start to run thin over time.

This wasn't Northern Ireland's problem in the first place. Things were going very well, especially after the GFA, and they had every right to be optimistic about the future until Nigel came along.
Anyhow....let me put this to you.
c.349,000 Northern Irish voted to leave the EU and they were on the winning side.
How can you square it with them that their vote ultimately means they
(a) remain in the EU against their wishes
(b) become part of another country (probably) against their wishes
....and they WON!!
Me thinks that if (b) were to happen - even by a public vote - they may well feel a bit miffed and, had they known, would have voted remain instead to keep the status quo - part pof the UK which may be more important to them than the leaving the EU??
The "bit miffed" may well be an undertatement for what's about to follow.
Otherwise it appears a simple answer to a complex question, break up the UK into bits. The end justifies the means?
So if Norn stays in the EU and unification results, will my UK passport which says "Northern Ireland" on it be valid to change into an Irish one?

 

[bramling]

Why should NI *have* to resign itself to one of those? It didn't vote to leave, so why should it be f*cked over by the rest of the UK? The PM should represent the best interests of all of the UK, not sacrifice NI for the good* of everyone else.

*Not actually the good of everyone else.

The U.K. as a whole did vote to leave. Having to abide by what the majority want is part of being a union, of which NI is currently a part. I grow tired of hearing about how somewhere wants this and somewhere else wants that - there are towns and counties which no doubt buck the national trend over a wide range of issues, somewhere along the line people need to accept that they are part of the U.K. and be done with it. What Wales, NI, London, Hertfordshire, County Durham or whatever voted is irrelevant - there’s only one vote which counts and that’s what the U.K. voted.

For many elsewhere in the U.K. I suspect it’s becoming increasingly ridiculous and frustrating that NI effectively can’t make its mind up between two options. Having said that, one hears a lot about what the NI political parties want (or, more often, don’t want!) but one does wonder what the average view is on the street is about all this - this is an open question as I don’t know, although most Irish people I know living on this side of the Irish Sea don’t seem to see a hard border as being a major problem.

In my view there should be a hard border, and an attempt to do everything practicable to make the arrangements as least inconvenient as possible for people on both sides.

 

[Senex]

Why should NI *have* to resign itself to one of those? It didn't vote to leave, so why should it be f*cked over by the rest of the UK? The PM should represent the best interests of all of the UK, not sacrifice NI for the good* of everyone else.

*Not actually the good of everyone else.

The PM is hell bent on sacrificing the good of Scotland and NI to the interests of English Tory dinosaurs.

 

[bramling]

The PM is hell bent on sacrificing the good of Scotland and NI to the interests of English Tory dinosaurs.

In the case of Scotland it’s more a case of a small handful of politicians hell bent on pursuing an ideologically driven agenda. If it wasn’t discontent over Brexit then Sturgeon would find some other reason why England is nasty.

The only reason the devolution system works is because of subsidy from England. Why should Scotland have devolution and Hertfordshire not?

 

[Senex]

The only reason the devolution system works is because of subsidy from England. Why should Scotland have devolution and Hertfordshire not?

There you and I find a measure of agreement. It is indeed only English money that makes the devolution to Scotland, Wales, and the ghastly Northern Ireland work, whilst the English have no proper parliament of their own at all. I'm not sure about a unit as small as Hertfordshire, but I certainly think Yorkshire needs devolution, and other regions of England. It's not such a difficult business — Germany has had the Länder ever since the present federal system was set up (and their origins are of course much older), and even formerly strongly centralist France has devolved a great deal of power to the regions in recent years. In England power has moved the other way with the enfeeblement of local authorities.

 

[bramling]

There you and I find a measure of agreement. It is indeed only English money that makes the devolution to Scotland, Wales, and the ghastly Northern Ireland work, whilst the English have no proper parliament of their own at all. I'm not sure about a unit as small as Hertfordshire, but I certainly think Yorkshire needs devolution, and other regions of England. It's not such a difficult business — Germany has had the Länder ever since the present federal system was set up (and their origins are of course much older), and even formerly strongly centralist France has devolved a great deal of power to the regions in recent years. In England power has moved the other way with the enfeeblement of local authorities.

I don’t really get what people think devolution achieves apart from people thinking that they have greater input into the political system. It still doesn’t really mean people get what they want. Just a Blair sop to Wales, Scotland and London - no doubt at the time it was expected Labour would be a shoe-in (look how that went wrong in Scotland!). NI perhaps is a more special case due to NI having their own political parties, although again I’m still sceptical, they’re either part of the U.K. or not.

 

[Muttley]

...but I certainly think Yorkshire needs devolution...

No thanks.
Currently i have to pay for....
a Parish Council
a Borough Council
a County Council
MP
MEP

i really don't want another layer of self serving middle men trying to tell me what's right and wrong, while (for instance) drugs are being openly dealt on the streets.

 

[Groningen]

Maybe Theresa May is closer to the EU than to Boris Johnson and his followers.