EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[thejuggler]

" if the UK and republic want an open border ".

Slightly more serious than wanting it. The UK and Ireland already have an internationally agreed and recognised agreement that there will always be an open border.

But according to R4 this morning the European Reform Group have experts know one else knows about or have contact with who know how to sort it all. I wonder where they have been for 2 years?

 

[bramling]

" if the UK and republic want an open border ".

Slightly more serious than wanting it. The UK and Ireland already have an internationally agreed and recognised agreement that there will always be an open border.

But according to R4 this morning the European Reform Group have experts know one else knows about or have contact with who know how to sort it all. I wonder where they have been for 2 years?

Hmm. No government can bind its successor and all that. I wouldn’t say anyone can reasonably assume there would *never* be a closed border.

 

[AlterEgo]

" if the UK and republic want an open border ".

Slightly more serious than wanting it. The UK and Ireland already have an internationally agreed and recognised agreement that there will always be an open border.

But according to R4 this morning the European Reform Group have experts know one else knows about or have contact with who know how to sort it all. I wonder where they have been for 2 years?

Which agreement between Ireland and the UK commits both to an open border?

 

[muddythefish]

Not interested. You yourself alluded to 100 turbulent years, and the prospect of the troubles re-igniting over the Irish border issue. As I said, we’re talking about an area comprising roughly the same population of some English counties - and that’s quite correct. So, to put it another way, a disproportionate amount of difficulty caused by a relatively small - in fact very small - subset of the population.

I do sympathise with the situation in NI, however I’m increasingly coming to the view that it’s NI that is the problem, not the rest of the U.K.

Well, you should be interested, it's your country, the United Kingdom. Your posts smack of English exceptionalism, and ignorance.

 

[Billy A]

Well it should be.
It should be up to those who want to leave to come up with a viable solution for doing so.
The NI issue was a bloody obvious one going into the referendum, so how on earth there wasn't a plan put forward by those suggesting we leave on how to deal with it?

It wasn't obvious to them. With very few exceptions, it simply never occurred to them. As far as they were concerned, the EU existed only to their east. If told that there would now be a land border with the EU to their west in the event of a leave vote prevailing , many if not most of those supporting leaving the EU would have been unable to figure out how this could happen. Even if they thought about Ireland at all, a significant number would have been unsure of the constitutional position of the island of Ireland. Some would have thought that the whole of Ireland was still in the UK. Others would have thought that the UK leaving the EU would require Ireland to do the same or at the very least be forced to accommodate the UK in some form.

 

[bramling]

Well, you should be interested, it's your country, the United Kingdom. Your posts smack of English exceptionalism, and ignorance.

It’s not England causing the problem by having an allegedly irreconcilable border setup, as well as a percentage of its population wanting to be part of another country.

 

[muddythefish]

It’s not England causing the problem by having an allegedly irreconcilable border setup, as well as a percentage of its population wanting to be part of another country.

"England", or rather the London government of the day, "caused the problem" in the first place by partitioning Ireland.

 

[bramling]

"England", or rather the London government of the day, "caused the problem" in the first place by partitioning Ireland.

And why was Ireland partitioned? The legacy left over was a NI which was only mostly-Protestant, not fully so.

 

[muddythefish]

And why was Ireland partitioned? The legacy left over was a NI which was only mostly-Protestant, not fully so.

Yes, so ?

 

[Howardh]

Which agreement between Ireland and the UK commits both to an open border?

The actual EU Withdrawl Bill I think, anyone....??
If so then legally we can't leave the EU if the border becomes hard, and we wrote that Bill!
Might be wrong though, but it's written down somewhere in legal terms.

 

[bramling]

Yes, so ?

My point was that Ireland was partitioned for a reason, not simple because England fancied doing it. That reason was sectarian division.

 

[AlterEgo]

The actual EU Withdrawl Bill I think, anyone....??
If so then legally we can't leave the EU if the border becomes hard, and we wrote that Bill!
Might be wrong though, but it's written down somewhere in legal terms.

The EU Withdrawal Bill is not an agreement between Britain and Ireland. It’s an Act of Parliament.

 

[SteveP29]

IF we decide the latter we need volunteers to man those posts, preferably people who don't mind if a couple of balaclavaed gentlemen approaching them on a dark night who might be asking them the way. Or not.
Bramling there's a job for you there, mate - good pay and a change of scenery, can I pass on the application form to you??

Post of the year, hats off.
Ther's an idea forming now though, all those jobs the leavers said would be a piece of p**s, let them do them, see how easy it is for them.

Well, you should be interested, it's your country, the United Kingdom. Your posts smack of English exceptionalism, and ignorance.

One thing I've taken from being an Englishman living in Scotland for 7 years, I can see the small minded, narrow minded, selfish attitude of a fair number of English people, intolerant of anything that isn't what they deem to be English or British enough for them, don't want others in a less fortunate position to them to have anything that might improve their quality of life if that means coming to the UK to do so.

 

[AlterEgo]

The unelected European Commission has told Italy’s democratically elected government to revise and resubmit its budget.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-45954022

Yes, Italy’s stupid budget is stupid, but let’s not miss the point. Don’t assume the European project is run is a democracy. It isn’t.

 

[Howardh]

The unelected European Commission has told Italy’s democratically elected government to revise and resubmit its budget.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-45954022

Yes, Italy’s stupid budget is stupid, but let’s not miss the point. Don’t assume the European project is run is a democracy. It isn’t.

Would that be the Commissioners who are accountable to the European Parliament which is direcctly elected by EU citizens via the ballot box (the same Parliament that some Nigel or other was elected to)? That commission, or some other we haven't heard of?
As for unelected bodies, I offer you the House of Lords.
And the civil service.
And we didn't choose the cabinet either!! Those were chosen for us.
Hmmm.

 

[bramling]

Would that be the Commissioners who are accountable to the European Parliament which is direcctly elected by EU citizens via the ballot box (the same Parliament that some Nigel or other was elected to)? That commission, or some other we haven't heard of?
As for unelected bodies, I offer you the House of Lords.
And the civil service.
And we didn't choose the cabinet either!! Those were chosen for us.
Hmmm.

Ah yes, the commission led by an individual our own prime minster at the time of his appointment was dead against.

 

[pemma]

And the civil service.
And we didn't choose the cabinet either!! Those were chosen for us.

You mean like that civil servant in London who disagreed with elected politicians on the replacement of Pacer trains in the North and had to be overruled by a Transport Minister elected by people in the East Midlands?

 

[pemma]

The unelected European Commission has told Italy’s democratically elected government to revise and resubmit its budget.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-45954022

Yes, Italy’s stupid budget is stupid, but let’s not miss the point. Don’t assume the European project is run is a democracy. It isn’t.

I'm pretty sure Italy, like Greece, has run up huge debts with the EU. If you owe a significant amount of money to a bank do you expect the bank to not take any action if you start maxing out credit cards and not repaying what you owe?

 

[pemma]

Yesterday I heard the story of two British language teachers working in the EU - one in Italy and one in Spain. The one working in Italy was able to vote in the EU referendum and will likely be allowed to stay (subject to a whole load of additional paperwork.) However, the one living in Spain was unable to vote in the EU referendum due to not having lived in the UK recently enough but is set to lose her right to live and work in Spain as the Spanish aren't willing to give concessions to Brits.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm pretty sure Italy, like Greece, has run up huge debts with the EU. If you owe a significant amount of money to a bank do you expect the bank to not take any action if you start maxing out credit cards and not repaying what you owe?

Thank you for illustrating my point more perfectly than I did.

The bank isn’t a democracy either.

 

[AlterEgo]

Would that be the Commissioners who are accountable to the European Parliament which is direcctly elected by EU citizens via the ballot box (the same Parliament that some Nigel or other was elected to)? That commission, or some other we haven't heard of?
As for unelected bodies, I offer you the House of Lords.
And the civil service.
And we didn't choose the cabinet either!! Those were chosen for us.
Hmmm.

The HoL and the civil service don’t get to dictate the economic policies of other countries. You’ve missed the point entirely.

 

[pemma]

The HoL and the civil service don’t get to dictate the economic policies of other countries. You’ve missed the point entirely.

Italy elects MEPs to the European parliament. Are they like the British UKIP ones who don't bother turning up and then complain about the consequences?

Are British civil servants allowed to tell the Scottish parliament to keep their budgets under control or is that undemocratic?

 

[pemma]

In related news Dyson have announced they will build their new cars in Singapore not Britain because they need to build the cars where there are skills and talent.

 

[AlterEgo]

Italy elects MEPs to the European parliament. Are they like the British UKIP ones who don't bother turning up and then complain about the consequences?

Are British civil servants allowed to tell the Scottish parliament to keep their budgets under control or is that undemocratic?

Scotland is not, and does not claim to be, a sovereign country.

 

[pemma]

Scotland is not, and does not claim to be, a sovereign country.

Scotland has been granted devolved powers though.

 

[EM2]

In related news Dyson have announced they will build their new cars in Singapore not Britain because they need to build the cars where there are skills and talent.

No surprise. Sir James is a Leaver, and doesn't manufacture anything in the UK anymore.

 

[EM2]

From Robert Peston on Facebook:

A shocked Cabinet was today told of Department of Transport contingency plans to own or lease roll-on roll-off lorry ferries to make sure vital supplies of goods, food and medicines continue to reach these shores if the UK leaves the EU without a deal.

According to work commissioned by Chris Grayling, the transport secretary, a possible French decision to reintroduce customs checks could reduce freight coming into the UK via Dover and the Channel Tunnel by around 85%.

So the UK would in those circumstances have to bring in vital imports to other ports such as the Port of London, Tilbury and Liverpool.

The proposed scheme is called GOOL, or Government Owned or Operated Logistics.

“It’s the kind of stuff governments do in a time of war” said one member of the cabinet. “It is as serious as that”.

That said the best precedent for the plan was the creation by Clement Atlee’s Labour government in 1948 of the National Freight Corporation, which was originally known as British Road Services.

In the case of GOOL, three options are being examined: buying ships, leasing them or converting military vessels.

I am told the military option is thought to be the least viable.

“This was the bombshell in a meeting that contained lots of dull stuff” said another minister.

He added that perhaps it would be the “sobering moment” that showed colleagues why a no-deal Brexit would be “so damaging”.

 

[AlterEgo]

Scotland has been granted devolved powers though.

So what? It’s not a sovereign country.

London has devolved powers too. So what?

The UK isn’t a devolved part of the EU.

 

[Howardh]

From Robert Peston on Facebook:

Brexit just gets better and better - so good even arch-supporter Dyson won't build his new electric cars in the UK (as discussed above). No sir...he want to build them in a country which conveniently has a no-tariff deal with the EU. Who'd have thought??

Perhaps he can build the government some ferries instead?

 

[Mag_seven]

In related news Dyson have announced they will build their new cars in Singapore not Britain because they need to build the cars where there are skills and talent.

No surprise. Sir James is a Leaver, and doesn't manufacture anything in the UK anymore.

One of only two business leaders in favour of Brexit (the other one being that Wetherspoons bloke). The EU have just signed a trade deal with, guess where, Singapore.