EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Bletchleyite]

In fact, post Brexit it will be in the gift of the UK government to fulfill your wishes.

The ability to reduce product-miles is one thing that would have my fence-sitting self down on the Brexit side, certainly. I fundamentally take the view that if it is not necessary to transport a particular item, it should not be transported. So if given food can be produced in the UK, there should be no imports of it, and every country should do the same (and ideally keep it even more local than that within the UK, too). That would be of significant environmental benefit. At the moment, we buy Italian tomatoes while other EU countries buy ours - this is stupid. Same with meat - we should eat British beef and British bacon, and the Americans should eat their beef and the Danish their own bacon. Transporting the same product in both directions is simply environmental nuts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And May is now talking about asking for an extension only to June 30, something that's been rejected already.

That's just to shut the ERG up.

 

[Howardh]

The ability to reduce product-miles is one thing that would have my fence-sitting self down on the Brexit side, certainly. I fundamentally take the view that if it is not necessary to transport a particular item, it should not be transported. So if given food can be produced in the UK, there should be no imports of it, and every country should do the same (and ideally keep it even more local than that within the UK, too). That would be of significant environmental benefit. At the moment, we buy Italian tomatoes while other EU countries buy ours - this is stupid. Same with meat - we should eat British beef and British bacon, and the Americans should eat their beef and the Danish their own bacon. Transporting the same product in both directions is simply environmental nuts.

I agree in essence, but isn't the situation that we simply aren't self-sufficient in foods and HAVE to import? Presuming we do, it must be better cost and environment-wise to import from the closest region possible, and make those imports tariff and duty-free to keep costs down for the consumer?
Of course the argument r/e the UK imposing zero tariffs on worldwide foods/goods is that it means everyone has a free trade deal with us, yet they can impose tariffs on UK produce/goods going there, meaning our farmers and industry wouldn't be able to compete with countries that have free-trade between them instead.
ie. if the EU forces 15% tariff on our beef going there, the cost to the consumer would rise and they would buy beef at 0% from countries they have free trade with.
So just saying we can ditch tariffs on stuff coming in isn't the solution if our own industries/farmers are undercut by these cheap imports and can't export themselves.

 

[404250]

Not just a beer, everything .

We could be. But, Brexit has directly meant that anybody exchanging from pounds to euros has been hit in the wallet.

It may surprise you to know that some people even travel to the EU for non-holiday reasons and some don't even buy beer.

No need for that tone! The beer comment was tongue in cheek.

 

[Howardh]

That's just to shut the ERG up.

Leave them, the utter drivel they come out with is both hilarious and not helping their cause.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So just saying we can ditch tariffs on stuff coming in isn't the solution if our own industries/farmers are undercut by these cheap imports and can't export themselves.

Or we change our farming distribution to be primarily subsistence-based, i.e. that UK farming exists primarily to feed the UK (and as far as possible regionally - so a baker should be buying local wheat, not wheat from the other end of the country, let alone abroad), and the mix of land use should reflect that? And every other country does the same? And we just import and export "stuff you can't grow or produce in the other country"?

Simpler, better for jobs, better for the environment.

 

[furnessvale]

So just saying we can ditch tariffs on stuff coming in isn't the solution if our own industries/farmers are undercut by these cheap imports and can't export themselves.

The imposition, or lack of, tariffs has to be selective.

I'm sure the UK banana and orange farmers will not be too upset when tariffs on those imports from other than the EU are removed. Even though we have an English wine industry it is tiny and a niche product. The removal of tariffs on New World wines would benefit UK consumers at the expense of EU producers.

In other areas where we have a significant home production, the removal of tariffs would need consideration.

 

[JonasB]

We must look like a nation of swivel eyed loons!

Unfortunately, you kind of do.

 

[SHD]

Or we change our farming distribution to be primarily subsistence-based, i.e. that UK farming exists primarily to feed the UK (and as far as possible regionally - so a baker should be buying local wheat, not wheat from the other end of the country, let alone abroad), and the mix of land use should reflect that? And every other country does the same? And we just import and export "stuff you can't grow or produce in the other country"?

Simpler, better for jobs, better for the environment.

I would be happy to be proved wrong but I doubt the UK has been self-sufficient in food since before the days of the Empire, even in war times. Unless your ideal menu consists of lard-fried potatoes, bacon, and eggs.

 

[Howardh]

Well I for one certainly don't want to be forced to have a diet of local produce.

Tripe? Black puddings?? On your bike.... Paella with dripping...

Don't mind a Hollands meatn'tater though. Someone from round these parts will confirm/deny - do Hollands export, what about Carr's (pasties)?? If so, where to? I imagine the Spanish Costas for one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well I for one certainly don't want to be forced to have a diet of local produce.

That wasn't what I said. What I said is that produce should only be transported where that produce cannot be produced locally.

 

[radamfi]

The lack of self-sufficiency is self-inflicted. If our ancestors didn't pop out baby after baby, Britain and other densely populated countries could easily be self sufficient in most things, including food and renewable energy.

 

[cb a1]

That wasn't what I said. What I said is that produce should only be transported where that produce cannot be produced locally.

What defines local?
What about seasonal produce [i.e. it's not currently in season locally but is elsewhere]? Do we ban the import of asparagus because it's available for a few weeks a year in the UK?
Is northern France more local to the south of England than northern Scotland?

FWIW, I am a passionate supporter of buying local and am horrified to see, for example, peruvian asparagus on the shelves of the supermarket but I think the decision on what to buy needs to be a choice made by the consumer rather than a top-down imposition from government.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What defines local

As local as possible.

What about seasonal produce [i.e. it's not currently in season locally but is elsewhere]? Do we ban the import of asparagus because it's available for a few weeks a year in the UK?

I wasn't proposing that, but tinned tomatoes fairly obviously don't have to be "in season".

Re Southern England/Northern France that is a fair point I suppose.

 

[SHD]

As local as possible.



I wasn't proposing that, but tinned tomatoes fairly obviously don't have to be "in season".

Re Southern England/Northern France that is a fair point I suppose.

Beware of simplistic reasoning. I do not have precise UK-specific LCA (life cycle assessment) data readily at hand, but it is nowhere near certain that on the shelves of your local Tesco "locally-grown" UK tinned tomatoes have a lower environmental footprint than southern Italian or Moroccan ones just because they travelled less miles. The energy needed to heat the tomato-growing greenhouses in the UK climate is significant, and unless the tomato cultivation is performed using renewable energy, this energy consumption will entail environmental/climate impacts.
Here is a source for France: "Between 80% and 95% of the total impact is due to the production sub-system, greenhouse heating being the major contributor".
https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00930502/document

If you want to hear the voice of the British tomato growing industry, here it is: http://www.britishtomatoes.co.uk/environment/
"Since 1990 British growers have reduced annual energy use by more than half 50% for each kilo of tomatoes of the same type and quality produced. During this period the majority of the production area was converted to use natural gas for glasshouse heating, resulting in less of the sulphur emissions which would come from burning oil or coal."
I read that as "we need to heat greenhouses but we switched from coal to natural gas".

 

[AM9]

As local as possible.



I wasn't proposing that, but tinned tomatoes fairly obviously don't have to be "in season".

Re Southern England/Northern France that is a fair point I suppose.

As regards the opportunities for growing fruit and vegetables, the climate in Northern France isn't much different from that in Southern England.

 

[jellybaby]

Seems the French have had enough:

France has reiterated its opposition to Britain being granted any
further Brexit extension if it does not have a concrete plan with
clear support in the Commons, saying that without that Britain must be
deemed to have chosen to leave the EU without a deal.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/05/france-maintains-hardline-stance-on-no-deal-brexit

 

[nidave]

Personally, being strongly opposed to unnecessary food miles, I'd like to see a whacking tariff or even a complete ban (beyond trivial levels e.g. a slice of tomato on your sandwich) placed on import of food items that can be UK-produced. Tinned tomatoes are an excellent example.

So having new trade deals with the USA, austrailia etc are going to really help with the food miles. We dont produce enough food so we have to import - now we so keen on getting these deals with other countries compared to what we already have the food miles are going to shoot up.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Merde alors!

Did anyone expect them to, though? As I said, I think Theresa is only asking for it to shut the ERG up.

 

[radamfi]

The Netherlands is a large food exporter despite being densely populated and it has a similar climate to the UK. But they also use a lot of greenhouse heating.

 

[furnessvale]

So having new trade deals with the USA, austrailia etc are going to really help with the food miles. We dont produce enough food so we have to import - now we so keen on getting these deals with other countries compared to what we already have the food miles are going to shoot up.

All food miles are not the same.

The vast majority of food miles from the EU are in HGVs. Food miles from further afield are in vast container ships which are totally different in cost and environmental effect.

 

[edwin_m]

All food miles are not the same.

The vast majority of food miles from the EU are in HGVs. Food miles from further afield are in vast container ships which are totally different in cost and environmental effect.

Except for what is airfreighted.

Seems the French have had enough:

Hoping it's them playing bad cop, but it's another sign that we can't keep asking for multiple short extensions and need to grab the "flextension" while it's still on the table. Agreeing a long-term plan would help too...

 

[furnessvale]

Except for what is airfreighted.

Agreed but to put it in perspective, total airfreight into the UK of all products, not just food, is ca. 2.5m tonnes pa.

Imports of food alone into the UK weigh over 40m tonnes pa.

 

[Howardh]

The Netherlands is a large food exporter despite being densely populated and it has a similar climate to the UK. But they also use a lot of greenhouse heating.

Despite having a much smaller land area, I wonder how much of the Netherlands is capable of crop growing compared to the UK; thinking the UK has a lot of upland which would be totally unsuitable (relief and weather) for crop growing, whereas NL can grow crops, flowers etc virtually throughout the country, even on the reclaimed lands? Of course NL produces a lot of dairy too so the land isn't exclusively crops.

 

[jellybaby]

Personally, being strongly opposed to unnecessary food miles, I'd like to see a whacking tariff or even a complete ban (beyond trivial levels e.g. a slice of tomato on your sandwich) placed on import of food items that can be UK-produced.

Is food special or would you do it with other products too? UK built cars only sold in the UK market for example?

 

[404250]

Don't think the compromise talks went well today - Labour complaining she didn't give enough.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is food special or would you do it with other products too? UK built cars only sold in the UK market for example?

The staple food items under discussion are basically the same. Cars and similar products are not.

 

[Giugiaro]

Meanwhile, the Portuguese Parliament has enacted laws in preparation for both a Deal and No Deal Brexit, including protections for UK expats and other related issues.

These chaps did in 4 days what the UK couldn't do in 3 years.

 

[greyman42]

I've seen plenty of Brexiteers behaving completely as expected saying it is the Remainers fault for not getting behind Brexit despite Brexit apparently being what the majority want.

What do you mean by 'apparently'? It was what the majority voted for.

 

[Howardh]

Don't think the compromise talks went well today - Labour complaining she didn't give enough.

In that case she'll never get her deal through. Sky just now suggest we will get an extension until March 31 2020; I suppose that means electing MEP's.In that time there may be a domestic issue which the government can't get through, losing a vote of no confidence and by 2021 we have a parliament there the Monster Raving Loony Party has the majority.

So things looking up, then, a sane government!