EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Adsy125]

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...andals-rivals-brexit-party-european-elections

Why do people think he gets away with so much, which would destroy anyone else?

 

[404250]

Trump got away with a lot more, and he's in power

 

[radamfi]

Trump got away with a lot more, and he's in power

People like Trump and Farage are untouchable.

 

[ashkeba]

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...andals-rivals-brexit-party-european-elections

Why do people think he gets away with so much, which would destroy anyone else?

Fans in the media, either supporting him or thinking they can use him in some way. Both may be in for a horrible surprise come the New British Empire.

 

[edwin_m]

I don’t agree with that. Most people seem to have lost confidence in TM, and she was lucky to last as long as she has after the last election.

What other options are opened up by changing leader? And how can anyone justify wasting a couple of months while it happens?

I think the party is merely reflecting public opinion, as it did over the EU issue - reflecting a level of opinion against the EU which clearly exists otherwise we wouldn’t be seeing parties such as UKIP attracting such numbers of votes as they have at times in the past.

Public opinion is polarising. What certain people including both main party leaders don't recognise, or choose to ignore, is that the Remain vote is flowing away from them at a similar rate. I'm really not sure how Corbyn and May could interpret a surge in support for the Lib Dems and Greens as the public wanting to get on with Brexit - I can only assume some kind of delusion. While it's not concentrated in one place, the sum of support in the polls for the five parties that are firmly behind remaining is similar to that for the two that are firmly behind Brexit, and opinion polls in recent months have shown a small but distinct majority to remain.

 

[Groningen]

In the USA are happy with lower taxes and higher income although more for the higher incomes. Something that also rises is the debt of the USA. Something to be paid by the later generations!

 

[404250]

What other options are opened up by changing leader? And how can anyone justify wasting a couple of months while it happens?

Public opinion is polarising. What certain people including both main party leaders don't recognise, or choose to ignore, is that the Remain vote is flowing away from them at a similar rate. I'm really not sure how Corbyn and May could interpret a surge in support for the Lib Dems and Greens as the public wanting to get on with Brexit - I can only assume some kind of delusion. While it's not concentrated in one place, the sum of support in the polls for the five parties that are firmly behind remaining is similar to that for the two that are firmly behind Brexit, and opinion polls in recent months have shown a small but distinct majority to remain.

You're wrong about the main party leaders - of course they realise that the remain voters are going elsewhere as well as the leave voters. Look at the local election results.

 

[404250]

They can't come out as pro remain as they'll lose too many votes. They also can't be pro Brexit as they'll lose even more.

 

[404250]

Tories are trying to honour the result of ref rather than being seen as fully pro Brexit, and Lobour the same but pushing for soft Brexit and 2nd ref to try and not lose the remainers.

 

[edwin_m]

You're wrong about the main party leaders - of course they realise that the remain voters are going elsewhere as well as the leave voters. Look at the local election results.

They may realise it privately but going by their public utterances they don't acknowledge it.

 

[edwin_m]

They can't come out as pro remain as they'll lose too many votes. They also can't be pro Brexit as they'll lose even more.

In the case of Labour that may have been a workable stance in 2017, but looking at the numbers now it's not a viable strategy for either party. The lack of support for May's deal, with even Leavers saying it's worse than remaining, shows that there just isn't a centre ground on this issue. It's a particular problem for the Euro elections where the vote is for a party not an individual candidate, so pretty suicidal for a party not to have a clear policy on the biggest issue of the day.

 

[Groningen]

In how much was Andrea Leadsom a prominent cabinetmember?

 

[AlterEgo]

In how much was Andrea Leadsom a prominent cabinetmember?

She was one of the losing challengers to May last time the leadership election occurred.

She’s a weirdo and a liar.

 

[404250]

She was one of the losing challengers to May last time the leadership election occurred.

She’s a weirdo and a liar.

Well qualified then.

 

[433N]

In how much was Andrea Leadsom a prominent cabinetmember?

She was one of the losing challengers to May last time the leadership election occurred.

She’s a weirdo and a liar.

She was the main losing challenger. She was pretty much nobody until she accidentally happened to be on the Brexit winning team. I can't help thinking she is a slimey careerist with no talent ... like the rest of the Tory Brexiteers.

I'd like Theresa May to stay as long as possible because, of the options available although she is terrible that makes her better than alot of the very sad sack of successors lining up to replace her. But mainly I want her to stay because she is ripping the Tories apart every minute that she stays.

 

[DerekC]

The lack of support for May's deal, with even Leavers saying it's worse than remaining, shows that there just isn't a centre ground on this issue.

The objectives set by Teresa May in her red lines and reflected in her deal accurately reflect what was promised - i.e. an end to free movement and freedom to do our own deals (although I doubt that that one really got many leave votes). The problem is still as it was three years ago and conveniently glossed over in the referendum campaign, that you can't have these and an open border in Ireland and no checks at the Irish Sea crossing. Don't forget that the "Irish Backstop" is what stopped May's deal. The only long term solutions are:

1. remain an EU member as before
2. leave and Ireland leaves as well (which is just not going to happen)
3. leave the EU but with Northern Ireland remaining inside

When all the dust settles on the Tory leadership issue, that is what will have to come back into focus. Another referendum could have 1) and 3) as the options. The problem is that the Unionists may be prepared to fight (literally) to prevent what they will see as the breakup of the Union, so we may end up with 3) only after a process of the UK leaving followed by years of conflict.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The objectives set by Teresa May in her red lines and reflected in her deal accurately reflect what was promised - i.e. an end to free movement and freedom to do our own deals (although I doubt that that one really got many leave votes). The problem is still as it was three years ago and conveniently glossed over in the referendum campaign, that you can't have these and an open border in Ireland and no checks at the Irish Sea crossing. Don't forget that the "Irish Backstop" is what stopped May's deal. The only long term solutions are:

1. remain an EU member as before
2. leave and Ireland leaves as well (which is just not going to happen)
3. leave the EU but with Northern Ireland remaining inside

When all the dust settles on the Tory leadership issue, that is what will have to come back into focus. Another referendum could have 1) and 3) as the options. The problem is that the Unionists may be prepared to fight (literally) to prevent what they will see as the breakup of the Union, so we may end up with 3) only after a process of the UK leaving followed by years of conflict.

4. NI has a vote on whether to secede from the UK and join the Republic and thus remain. I suspect that vote would succeed now.

 

[Howardh]

1. leave the EU but with Northern Ireland remaining inside

3) only after a process of the UK leaving followed by years of conflict.

4. NI has a vote on whether to secede from the UK and join the Republic and thus remain. I suspect that vote would succeed now.

Norn is a tinderbox kept peaceful by the Good Friday Agreement. It's OK for a keyboard writer to glibly say "NI can remain inside the EU" or NI will vote to join the Republic". What will hapen when the winning side - all those who voted for Brexit and to remain completely tied to the UK - find that their WINNING vote actually ends them up in another country and still in the UK?
They won't enjoy being sacrificed just for the sake of England going Brexit.
If that was going to happen then where's the democracy - why ask them to vote in the first place if all you want to do is ignore it and toss them aside when they win? It's their votes than basically saw Brexit home....do we get a recount?
Nope, you're asking for trouble big-time.

 

[edwin_m]

The objectives set by Teresa May in her red lines and reflected in her deal accurately reflect what was promised - i.e. an end to free movement and freedom to do our own deals (although I doubt that that one really got many leave votes). The problem is still as it was three years ago and conveniently glossed over in the referendum campaign, that you can't have these and an open border in Ireland and no checks at the Irish Sea crossing. Don't forget that the "Irish Backstop" is what stopped May's deal.

All sorts of things were promised by different people, some of which have turned out to be incompatible with the above.

I suspect neither the customs union nor the ECJ was of much significance in 2016 except to real diehards - then May and other started talking them up as important parts of Leaving, making compomise in those areas virtually impossible.

I can't help thinking, given the extent of opposition in the Commons, that when it came to the crunch the deal would have been defeated even without the backstop. A vote was passed to replace the backstop by unspecified alternative arrangements, but that just means that more people preferred it without the backstop than with it, not that a majority would favour the deal as a whole.

 

[krus_aragon]

Within Northern Ireland, the "winning side" was Remain, but the mindset you describe will represent a significant proportion of the population.

It is indeed a tinderbox, and one that outsiders struggle to understand, and the lack of a functioning devolved Government makes things all the more difficult.

 

[433N]

I'm reading Robert Peston's book WTF? which is a surprisingly good read given his TV presentation 'style'. He's even a bit sweary.

In it, he says that Theresa May's big mistake was announcing March 29th 2019 as the date we leave without a single negotiation having taken place. From that point, the EU negotiators really had all the cards. She did it at the Tory Party conference as a sop to all those swivel-eyed loons who are now smelling blood and trying to get rid of her.

Given all the mistakes since (e.g. not making it cross-party from the off, ill-advised general election, going to bed with the DUP), it is now forgotten how big the leaving date announcement was ... sacrificing the country to keep The Party happy ... it's the Tory way.

 

[Spamcan81]

Norn is a tinderbox kept peaceful by the Good Friday Agreement. It's OK for a keyboard writer to glibly say "NI can remain inside the EU" or NI will vote to join the Republic". What will hapen when the winning side - all those who voted for Brexit and to remain completely tied to the UK - find that their WINNING vote actually ends them up in another country and still in the UK?
They won't enjoy being sacrificed just for the sake of England going Brexit.
If that was going to happen then where's the democracy - why ask them to vote in the first place if all you want to do is ignore it and toss them aside when they win? It's their votes than basically saw Brexit home....do we get a recount?
Nope, you're asking for trouble big-time.

Northern Ireland voted to remain in the referendum.

 

[Spamcan81]

I'm reading Robert Peston's book WTF? which is a surprisingly good read given his TV presentation 'style'. He's even a bit sweary.

In it, he says that Theresa May's big mistake was announcing March 29th 2019 as the date we leave without a single negotiation having taken place. From that point, the EU negotiators really had all the cards. She did it at the Tory Party conference as a sop to all those swivel-eyed loons who are now smelling blood and trying to get rid of her.

Given all the mistakes since (e.g. not making it cross-party from the off, ill-advised general election, going to bed with the DUP), it is now forgotten how big the leaving date announcement was ... sacrificing the country to keep The Party happy ... it's the Tory way.

Whereas Corbyn is happy to sacrifice the country to keep his puppet masters happy.

 

[Typhoon]

She was the main losing challenger.

Because she was a Leaver who wasn't Johnson and wasn't Gove.

 

[433N]

Whereas Corbyn is happy to sacrifice the country to keep his puppet masters happy.

It is a sad indictment of this country that people post tabloid headlines as if it in some way validates a counter-argument or adds something to a discussion.

Would you care to elaborate on who Corbyn's puppet masters are and what your evidence is, please ?

 

[berneyarms]

4. NI has a vote on whether to secede from the UK and join the Republic and thus remain. I suspect that vote would succeed now.

You’re totally wrong about that.

There is no chance that such a vote would succeed at the moment and frankly such a vote would be highly irresponsible given the current political climate in NI.

You’re conflating two separate issues - membership of the EU and NI as part of the UK. They are completely different.

There is still a clear majority for remaining part of the UK and I don’t see that changing anytime soon.

Given the financial benefits of remaining part of the UK (NHS in particular) that NI gets, why would they want to leave.

Added to that the fact that our economy in Ireland could not afford the costs of NI means that it is highly unlikely to happen. It would create a massive political and (possibly civil) crisis.

As Bertie Ahern has stated on several occasions, such a poll should only be held when the view is that it would pass by a substantial majority. The risks would be far too great otherwise.

 

[Aictos]

The only long term solutions are:

1. remain an EU member as before
2. leave and Ireland leaves as well (which is just not going to happen)
3. leave the EU but with Northern Ireland remaining outside.

You forgot the 4th option which is leave EU but keep the Common Travel Area as it is which has been in place far longer then any EU travel area which also removes the need for a backstop as the CTA would take priority over EU.

You also forgot a 5th option which could happen and that’s Northern Ireland becoming part of the Republic of Ireland.

 

[Howardh]

Northern Ireland voted to remain in the referendum.

We didn't vote as separate countries, if we did remain would have won 3 - 2 (SCO/NI/GIB vs ENG/WAL) and if you don't count GIB it's a tie so that argument falls flat at the first hurdle.
Or will towns in England that voted remain be allowed to leave the UK and stay in the EU???
Unionists wanting Brexit WON - and now we seem to want to dump them in a different country and still in the EU. They might be slightly miffed.

 

[Howardh]

Whereas Corbyn is happy to sacrifice the country to keep his puppet masters happy.

I'm the second one who would like an explanation (and I'm NOT a Corbyn supporter at all).

 

[anme]

We didn't vote as separate countries, if we did remain would have won 3 - 2 (SCO/NI/GIB vs ENG/WAL) and if you don't count GIB it's a tie so that argument falls flat at the first hurdle.
Or will towns in England that voted remain be allowed to leave the UK and stay in the EU???
Unionists wanting Brexit WON - and now we seem to want to dump them in a different country and still in the EU. They might be slightly miffed.

Are you proposing we give a certain group, that forms less than 1.5% of the UK population, a veto on the outcome of brexit?

It seems to me that unionists in Northern Ireland are among the biggest losers from the referendum result, and the DUP now regret backing brexit.