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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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Tetchytyke

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Tony Blair and the Labour party allowing 3 million immigrants to enter the country during their power

*sigh* Yet another incorrect fact.

There are 3.7m EU citizens living here, which isn't the same thing, and only half arrived after 2006. Other than 2006, the highest net migration years have all been after 2010, when Blair was a distant memory.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/

There are also 1.3m UK nationals living in the EU, for context.
 
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StaffsWCML

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I'm not going to *sigh* but, I am not talking about the current numbers living here or what has happened since 2010.

What happened before 2010 was unprecedented and unplanned for. It has caused issues for services, infrastructure and demographics whether people chose to bury their head in the sand or not.

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/pr...ration-under-labour-ndash-chaos-or-conspiracy

Perhaps worth adding that a lot of the immigration was classed as non-EU and illegal. Which really proves the point it has nothing to do with the EU but more the rejection of bad government policy and a complete lack of understanding.

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/pdfs/BP11_24.pdf
 

Tetchytyke

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I am not talking about the current numbers living here or what has happened since 2010.

But you are, which is the issue. As Full Fact show, net EU migration was pretty much nil before 2004, the big numbers only hit after 2010.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/

Blair, who you seem to blame, put restrictions on A2 and A8 nationals for five years. A2 nationals had to get approval to work here, A8 nationals had to register with the Home Office. These restrictions ended under the coalition, not under Labour.

MigrationWatch are a right-wing campaign group, btw, whose leader got his peerage off David Cameron.
 

StaffsWCML

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But you are, which is the issue. As Full Fact show, net EU migration was pretty much nil before 2004, the big numbers only hit after 2010.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/

Blair, who you seem to blame, put restrictions on A2 and A8 nationals for five years. A2 nationals had to get approval to work here, A8 nationals had to register with the Home Office. These restrictions ended under the coalition, not under Labour.

MigrationWatch are a right-wing campaign group, btw, whose leader got his peerage off David Cameron.

I would say Full Fact is missing the Full facts if you look at the ONS diagrams, the numbers significantly jumped almost as soon as Labour took power:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/2015-08-27

resource


https://fullfact.org/immigration/conservatives-migration-record/

I imagine the ONS are also some kind of extreme right wingers too.:lol:

Probably going around in circles here but I do think its fair to say Labour encouraged and facilitated immigration without building the housing, infrastructure and public services to support it.

I don't disagree that it has increased under the Tories or whoever, but that's not really the point this all started under Blair and it shows quite clearly in the graph when it increased significantly in the late 1990s. I would say its no coincidence, I wonder what a Labour government might have to gain from such a thing?
 

Tetchytyke

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if you look at the ONS diagrams, the numbers significantly jumped almost as soon as Labour took power

Non-EU migration did, yes, as Full Fact show. It's also to be expected in economic booms- we saw a similar swing in the 1980s boom under Thatcher (but that was hidden by starting from a position of significant net emigration). These weren't low-skill migrants, though; the law didn't allow that. They came here as our economy boomed, especially in finance; a significant chunk of our financial sector is staffed by people from abroad.

These people have caused the London property boom and population increase, yes. We can have a conversation about that (and would highlight Labour's Crossrail).

But what they've got to do with someone in Stoke not finding work is less clear. And even less clear what they have to do with Brexit.

Still,
I would say its no coincidence, I wonder what a Labour government might have to gain from such a thing?
, is a nice dog whistle. Labour loves those dirty forrins, not like us Tory Brexitists.

I note you don't attach such nefarious aims to Thatcher's 150,000 net swing in immigration...
 

SteveP29

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I will feel a lot more sorry for them if we do leave as not only will their current lifestyle be destroyed, but they will have to live with the decision to ignore good advice. Those who 'just want to cause trouble' may find that they are turned upon by many who are suffering.

Notr just their lifestyles, the lifestyles of the people in who's shops, pubs and clubs they'd have been spending their money. Sports clubs for their children, after school hobbies they'd be spending money on for their kids etc

Corbyn doesn't want an election because the public know he is a liar
Proof please, no anecdotes thank you, hard evidence, links, actual quotes, news articles where he's been caught lying.
 

SteveP29

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Signed up to fishing quota reductions

Those quota reductions are EU wide, not just affecting the UK, and it's to ensure that the likes of mine and your Grandchildren and Great Grandchildren have something called a fish to eat, instead of clearing the oceans and consigning them to the history books

Labour allowed extra migration but never built sufficient infrastructure to cope.

So Labour's hospital and school rebuilding plans (however flawed they were by the use of PFI's), which often increased the size of these buildings (I worked at Sunderland Royal for 2 years and their rebuild/ extension almost doubled the amount of beds that were available)

especially if their arrival is not adequately accounted for

That's a UK government failure, nothing to do with the EU
 

najaB

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Once again I'm amazed by the ingenuity of migrants managing to simultaneously take all the jobs and be a drain on public finances/resources.
 

radamfi

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Probably going around in circles here but I do think its fair to say Labour encouraged and facilitated immigration without building the housing, infrastructure and public services to support it.

There would never be a scenario when there is enough infrastructure to satisfy migration sceptics. So that effectively means you will never have any immigration ever. I bet they wouldn't even be happy if the government built ghost cities that are left empty, only to be occupied in the event of future immigration.
 

fowler9

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I agree, interacting with people within the workplace who can’t speak and/or understand English properly really gets up my nose, especially if one is attempting to communicate something safety-critical when it becomes not just irritating and disproductive but also potentially dangerous. Blood out of a stone and banging head up against brick wall springs to mind.
I agree. Here's a funny one though, I work with the British Armed Forces and you would, I promise, be amazed how many I have to speak to that can really struggle with English. I'm not talking about Scousers, Geordies, Scots and Irish, I mean people who serve who are from overseas, Fiji, Nepal, etc. etc. I'm not actually making a point here, just saying you would be surprised as an aside to the subject at hand. Ha ha.
 

fowler9

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They are, people are entitled to build their own views of the world. If enough people are perceiving it in a certain way perhaps they have a reason to.

There are problems in these areas already, the issue is compounded by any so called 'outsiders' coming in and being seen to take better housing, school places, jobs where they are already in short supply for those living there a lifetime. Its not difficult to see why they might be aggrieved particularly if they are not educated to a higher level and well travelled. It does happen and whatever the scales, it does affect people daily.

People blame Tory cuts and austerity for the fact public services are overcrowded and underfunded when in fact they have been that way for many many years, its been growing and growing the costs were unsustainable because no proper planning has been made.

The real issue is politicians and the apologists refuse to acknowledge the concerns of these people, they bat it off as 'racist little Englanders'. All it does is infuriate them, make them feel unheard, so they react by delivering a Brexit vote. Its obviously the wrong solution to a problem that isn't anything to do with the EU, its to do with our governments. It is not going to solve anything for them, if anything it will mean less jobs, less money than before - no idea where the blame will shift then. I would think most of the intelligent immigrants will leave the country before Brexit if they can.
I agree that you can't dismiss them as racist little Englanders. Certain parts of the government and media have to hold their hands up here. In Liverpool a good few years ago there was a massive thing on radio phone ins about Kosovans living in Liverpool being given nice cars, flats, houses, mobile phones and even watched by the government or EU. The media fuelled this. A Spanish mate of mine who lived in Liverpool for a while with his Spanish Girlfriend was working for a Spanish company providing skilled jobs to many English workers. He had a company car, a nice flat in town, a mobile phone and a nice watch his girlfriend bought him. One night as we left his flat to go to the pub a bunch of lads shouted "F*ck off back to Kosovo" (My mate had jet black hair and dark Olive skin). Oddly enough naff all Kosovan refugees were housed in Liverpool by the government but people believed we were over run with them. People saw my mate with a phone, a car, a job a flat. Assumed he was Kosovan.
 

Tetchytyke

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I agree that you can't dismiss them as racist little Englanders.

I agree too. Certain far-right newspapers like The Sun have always spread muck about people (as you Liverpudlians know) and it's usually been against foreigners and migrants. And if that's all you read- it's in the paper, it must be true, why would you read another one- that becomes your view of the world. We've had forty years of being lectured about the evils of migration by a man who renounced his own citizenship for financial gain. You couldn't make it up.

I don't blame people for being taken in by it all, divide and conquer is a popular political tactic because it works. But that doesn't legitimise their concerns; a lot of people believing something doesn't make it true. The Sun famously claimed that you can't catch AIDS through straight sex, and that certainly isn't true.
 

edwin_m

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Just seen one of the supposedly neutral "Get Ready for Brexit" adverts. Aren't the right-pointing arrows a bit symbolic of where our government is going, and reminiscent of the Brexit party logo?
 

fowler9

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I agree too. Certain far-right newspapers like The Sun have always spread muck about people (as you Liverpudlians know) and it's usually been against foreigners and migrants. And if that's all you read- it's in the paper, it must be true, why would you read another one- that becomes your view of the world. We've had forty years of being lectured about the evils of migration by a man who renounced his own citizenship for financial gain. You couldn't make it up.

I don't blame people for being taken in by it all, divide and conquer is a popular political tactic because it works. But that doesn't legitimise their concerns; a lot of people believing something doesn't make it true. The Sun famously claimed that you can't catch AIDS through straight sex, and that certainly isn't true.
Even today I was reading below the line in a certain right wing newspaper (Not the S*n) multiple people saying the Poles don't integrate with the English and they stick together. It's just not my experience at all. My first Polish friend is a girl married to a Scouse lad whose daughter has just finished sixth form at the school I went to. My other Polish mate (Apart from the guys I met in Poland thanks to him) is a black cab driver in Liverpool. He got a Scouse guy I was best man for a job and the only other Polish guy he is friends with in the UK lives in London. His first friend in Liverpool was an English Prison Officer at HMP Liverpool and not because he was inside. Ha ha. Their kids went to school together. They are totally integrated with British society.
 

Tetchytyke

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Aye, that's my experience too. I went to school with a Kosovan lass who came here as a refugee during the Balkans War, couldn't speak a word of English at 13, by 16 she was top of the whole school, went on to Oxford. Couldn't mean anyone nicer, has contributed far more to this country than any number of the scrotes you see at EDL marches. And growing up in Bradford we had a significant Ukrainian and Polish population from the 60s, fully integrated, yaddayaddayadda.

As for the "we won the war" lot, we wouldn't have won the Battle of Britain without the Polish in the RAF!
 

fowler9

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Aye, that's my experience too. I went to school with a Kosovan lass who came here as a refugee during the Balkans War, couldn't speak a word of English at 13, by 16 she was top of the whole school, went on to Oxford. Couldn't mean anyone nicer, has contributed far more to this country than any number of the scrotes you see at EDL marches. And growing up in Bradford we had a significant Ukrainian and Polish population from the 60s, fully integrated, yaddayaddayadda.

As for the "we won the war" lot, we wouldn't have won the Battle of Britain without the Polish in the RAF!
I went to Uni in Bradford. Went to the Polish centre by the Uni for beers once and one of the best chippies in our area was run by two Polish ladies. And yes, without Polish 303 squadron the Battle of Britain could have been very different.
 

Cowley

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I went to Uni in Bradford. Went to the Polish centre by the Uni for beers once and one of the best chippies in our area was run by two Polish ladies. And yes, without Polish 303 squadron the Battle of Britain could have been very different.
So true.
It’s interesting that in the estate in Exeter where I recently had my old house rented out lots of Polish families are buying up houses at the moment. Including (hopefully) my old one.
They seem happy to invest in the UK at the moment despite what’s going on. I was quite surprised about this.
 

Killingworth

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I went to Uni in Bradford. Went to the Polish centre by the Uni for beers once and one of the best chippies in our area was run by two Polish ladies. And yes, without Polish 303 squadron the Battle of Britain could have been very different.

Our old neighbours were Polish, she born in Germany, he in Russia (might have been other way round). He fled south in 1939 with the Polish Air Force and took part in Battle of Britain. She was taken to a camp and still had her serial number tattoo to prove it. How they found each other after 1945 was a marvel and they set up a cafe in the East Midlands before retirement. My experience of Polish workers who have arrived more recently has been almost totally positive. The opinion of some from Romania and elsewhere may not be so positive, but my car was washed better today than the old garage automatic car wash.
 
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Bantamzen

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Aye, that's my experience too. I went to school with a Kosovan lass who came here as a refugee during the Balkans War, couldn't speak a word of English at 13, by 16 she was top of the whole school, went on to Oxford. Couldn't mean anyone nicer, has contributed far more to this country than any number of the scrotes you see at EDL marches. And growing up in Bradford we had a significant Ukrainian and Polish population from the 60s, fully integrated, yaddayaddayadda.

As for the "we won the war" lot, we wouldn't have won the Battle of Britain without the Polish in the RAF!

As another Bradfordian (or should that be Bratfudian? ;)), I grew up used to having Eastern Europeans living in our community. It didn't seem to upset people anything like as much as it does today, we just took it for granted. Yes there were a few bigots about, but generally people were able to just get on with life. Fast forward to today, we still have some Polish & Lithuanian neighbours, but these guys feel far less welcome than our neighbours did in the 1970s, fuelled in part by the increasingly nasty rhetoric emanating from the further reaches of the right wing political groups & media.

**Warning - Controversial Opinion Incoming **

One thing has always struck me about this whole "they're taking our jobs" argument, from a purely anecdotal position I've noticed that more and more "native" Brits seem increasingly unwilling to do the kind of work that Eastern Europeans are often accused of taking from us. There seems to be more desire from the former group to be propelled directly into management roles, rather than working more labour intensive jobs. This even seems to have started to leak into the IT world, at least in the public sector. A couple of years ago my team urgently needed some new coders with very specific languages in mind. But having put out an internal advert, practically none of the applicants had the experience required, but many of these seemed more interested in "gaining management skills". And I hear similar stories from friends and family in industrial, agricultural and other sectors. Perhaps part of the problem here is not free movement, but an increasing reluctance in our society to actually do any work. I do honestly believe that as an overall nation, we seem to have lost the kind of attitude that got us through some difficult years, replaced with the sort of attitude that would have seen us all packed onto the Ark 'B' from Douglas Adam's Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy....
 

StaffsWCML

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Then why are the Conservatives way ahead in the polls?

I said from my point of view, it is entirely possible other people who want Brexit support Boris and the Tories. A mistake in my view.

Non-EU migration did, yes, as Full Fact show. It's also to be expected in economic booms- we saw a similar swing in the 1980s boom under Thatcher (but that was hidden by starting from a position of significant net emigration). These weren't low-skill migrants, though; the law didn't allow that. They came here as our economy boomed, especially in finance; a significant chunk of our financial sector is staffed by people from abroad.

These people have caused the London property boom and population increase, yes. We can have a conversation about that (and would highlight Labour's Crossrail).

But what they've got to do with someone in Stoke not finding work is less clear. And even less clear what they have to do with Brexit.

Still,
, is a nice dog whistle. Labour loves those dirty forrins, not like us Tory Brexitists.

I note you don't attach such nefarious aims to Thatcher's 150,000 net swing in immigration...

I have also said on numerous occasions I am not talking solely of EU immigration. Most people wont really see were immigration is from, they just see the end results. The point I am making is that it is easy for people who don't have the full picture to blame the EU (the system or whatever) for something they see as not working for them.

Just to be clear here I have never said immigration is bad and am not a Tory Brexitist although I am not a Labour change direction every time the wind changesist either. I have said successive governments have failed to deal with immigration properly hence the result we have and people voting Brexit once they have built a perception of the situation. It increased largely under the Labour government which ever way you look at it. It was actively encouraged, I think Blair even admitted as much.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-did-not-realise-many-migrants-would-come-uk/

Also admits a failure of multiculturalism

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-migrants-must-integrate-to-combat-far-right

Once again I'm amazed by the ingenuity of migrants managing to simultaneously take all the jobs and be a drain on public finances/resources.

Ah I forgot of course these extra people don't need houses, school places, hospitals, they don't drive, use trains. Again its a UK government problem but we simply don't have enough housing, we are struggling to build enough to meet demand hence the stupid cost of housing. We don't have enough infrastructure roads are jammed, trains are full, schools have huge class sizes, hospitals are full, the emergency services are stretch.

The solution is a honest government that tell us the issues and tell us we all need to pay more. Not just a ideological agenda against someone you are jealous of.

Proof please, no anecdotes thank you, hard evidence, links, actual quotes, news articles where he's been caught lying.




https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...stinian-terrorists-antisemitism-a8489731.html

There are many more. The guy is a pathological liar.


Those quota reductions are EU wide, not just affecting the UK, and it's to ensure that the likes of mine and your Grandchildren and Great Grandchildren have something called a fish to eat, instead of clearing the oceans and consigning them to the history books

So Labour's hospital and school rebuilding plans (however flawed they were by the use of PFI's), which often increased the size of these buildings (I worked at Sunderland Royal for 2 years and their rebuild/ extension almost doubled the amount of beds that were available)

That's a UK government failure, nothing to do with the EU

Most of the large scale fishing in British Waters was by European fleets. The British/Icelandic/Norwegian fishermen managed stocks quite well before the Common Fishing Policy.

I agree it is a UK government failure over many years, but if you are going to encourage immigration you should plan properly for it or you are in the danger of people making their own incorrect judgements.

Stoke also had a new PFI hospital and PFI schools for the future (replacing many schools that could have been refurbished for half the cost). Some of the buildings were smaller, the quality of the builds was poor. New schools and hospitals replacing existing, other major infrastructure projects were needed.

We are left in a situation now where the billion pound hospital isn't really big enough because whoever planned it didn't plan properly. Some of the schools are having to rent space in other buildings because there new buildings were not built to a large enough spec.
 

AM9

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... Ah I forgot of course these extra people don't need houses, school places, hospitals, they don't drive, use trains. ...

So out of those public services, the tax that they pay contributes thus:
houses - they pay the same as anybody else and contrary to the right-wing press, don't get preferential treatment on housing
school places - a substantial number of EU migrants have children but they leave them at home whilst working here
hospitals - they are virtually all of working age and make considerably lower demands on health services
driving - they tend to be located near to their work and many of them don't bother to bring their LHD cars to the UK, but if they do, their income tax pays their share to gether with the same VED/insurance tax/vat and duty on fuel that everybody else pays
trains - their income tax contributes to the rail sunsidy like all tax payers and they pay their fares

Again its a UK government problem but we simply don't have enough housing, we are struggling to build enough to meet demand hence the stupid cost of housing. We don't have enough infrastructure roads are jammed, trains are full, schools have huge class sizes, hospitals are full, the emergency services are stretch.

See above, they are almost certainly net contributors in most of the areas above, so the UK gets the additional income but won't spend it. But hey, let's all go along with the xenophobial nurtured by the anti-EU and anti immigrant media.
 

StaffsWCML

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So out of those public services, the tax that they pay contributes thus:
houses - they pay the same as anybody else and contrary to the right-wing press, don't get preferential treatment on housing
school places - a substantial number of EU migrants have children but they leave them at home whilst working here
hospitals - they are virtually all of working age and make considerably lower demands on health services
driving - they tend to be located near to their work and many of them don't bother to bring their LHD cars to the UK, but if they do, their income tax pays their share to gether with the same VED/insurance tax/vat and duty on fuel that everybody else pays
trains - their income tax contributes to the rail sunsidy like all tax payers and they pay their fares

See above, they are almost certainly net contributors in most of the areas above, so the UK gets the additional income but won't spend it. But hey, let's all go along with the xenophobial nurtured by the anti-EU and anti immigrant media.

:rolleyes: Good lord. I at no point said that they didn't contribute to any of these things.

I am saying that if a government doesn't plan properly, which they haven't, and we don't all (not just the rich as the left wing, jealous politics of envy media would have us believe) pay more tax. It puts pressure on these services, which it has.

For the average person who doesn't read the rabid right wing media, or the rabid left wing media, they just see things not working the way they should, they want a change in the system, they (incorrectly) see the EU as part of the system and vote out. It may not be right but its happened. It is the wrong solution to a problem. Many years of bad government policy domestically have caused this, people feel ignored.

I think left wingers over estimate the power of the right wing rabid media in this because it suits their vengeful agenda against the so called rich elite. Most people just base things on what they see which may or may not be correct.
 

Bantamzen

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For the average person who doesn't read the rabid right wing media, or the rabid left wing media, they just see things not working the way they should, they want a change in the system, they (incorrectly) see the EU as part of the system and vote out. It may not be right but its happened. It is the wrong solution to a problem. Many years of bad government policy domestically have caused this, people feel ignored.

I think left wingers over estimate the power of the right wing rabid media in this because it suits their vengeful agenda against the so called rich elite. Most people just base things on what they see which may or may not be correct.

Given that the country's most popular printed newspaper is one that could at the very least be described as "right wing", if not "rabid right wing", I'm not sure its entirely accurate to suggest that the influence of these branches of the media is overstated. For example I do know where my mother lives, in deepest, rural Cheshire, The Daily Mail is a hugely popular read, and sometimes the main source of the reader's news. And I can tell you that talking to some of these people, my mother included, you'd be forgiven for thinking that they'd joined some Mail cult, their views often reflective of recent Mail headlines (to this day as a public sector worker I still have to fend off accusations of having a "gold plated pension", instead of the "rusting at the bottom of a canal pension" that I actually have). You'd be surprised how intelligent & successful people can be swayed by day after day of the kind of headlines & stories that the Mail generates. And how often have you heard people talking about the impending "killer heatwave" or "worst winter in two billion years" after the Express has published it's twice yearly horror weather "forecast"?

Of course that's not to say the left wing media is any better, there is often some pretty dire nonsense in them too. However the left wing publications seem to be in more of a decline than right wing ones, so I think it is safe to say that the latter exert more influence on public opinion than the former.
 

najaB

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Ah I forgot of course these extra people don't need houses, school places, hospitals, they don't drive, use trains. Again its a UK government problem but we simply don't have enough housing, we are struggling to build enough to meet demand hence the stupid cost of housing. We don't have enough infrastructure roads are jammed, trains are full, schools have huge class sizes, hospitals are full, the emergency services are stretch.

The solution is a honest government that tell us the issues and tell us we all need to pay more. Not just a ideological agenda against someone you are jealous of.
Again, you are arguing against someone who is making the same point as you.

People complain that that immigrants are a drain on public resources but ignore the fact that in "stealing all the jobs" the Government is getting effectively free tax revenue (the immigrant arrived as an adult so the Government hasn't had to pay to educate them, etc.). So far from being a drain (since they can't claim benefits until they've been here for some times) they represent a net gain to the country's finances.

That our Government then chooses not to invest in public services is entirely our fault.
 

Bletchleyite

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Of course that's not to say the left wing media is any better, there is often some pretty dire nonsense in them too. However the left wing publications seem to be in more of a decline than right wing ones, so I think it is safe to say that the latter exert more influence on public opinion than the former.

Probably so. Part of this, rather than a conspiracy, will be that the left tends to be younger. Younger people are more likely to consume alternative news media than printed newspapers.
 

Bletchleyite

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People complain that that immigrants are a drain on public resources but ignore the fact that in "stealing all the jobs" the Government is getting effectively free tax revenue (the immigrant arrived as an adult so the Government hasn't had to pay to educate them, etc.). So far from being a drain (since they can't claim benefits until they've been here for some times) they represent a net gain to the country's finances.

Not only that, but state pensions etc are basically a pyramid scheme - they require a continuous increase (or at least not decrease) in the working population. The only way to keep that going is, as British people aren't having enough babies, immigration. Want a reduced need for it? Three kids per family should sort it long-term but that'll take a while.
 
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