EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Bletchleyite]

Minimum wage has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU.

 

[Struner]

Minimum wage has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU.

Thank you for that.
All the same, immigrants - like turkeys - don't seem to be voting for xmas
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...s-meats-at-risk-from-lack-of-seasonal-workers

Supplies of festive food staples including pigs in blankets, glazed hams and three-bird roasts could be hit by Brexit-related labour shortages in the meat industry

 

[Peter Kelford]

Minimum wage has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU.

Minimum wage won't exist.

With inflation a (say) £8.50 minimum wage which currently buys (say) a Sandwich/fast food lunch + a return tube fare may only end up being priced out of a warm toastie/Mcdonald's lunch but instead end up buying a supermarket sandwich. This may not be much on this scale, but when scaled up to other, bigger spending, it can add up, especially for those who live hand to mouth.

Not increasing the minimum wage or creating lower minimum wage 'exemptions' may be what happens. For instance, anyone who hasn't worked continuously for (say) 2 years in one company may get a lower minimum wage, young people, part-timers (under a certain number of hours if on a regular contract - think: The Tories have abolished zero-hours contracts - but employers don't lose out) and so on.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

With inflation a (say) £8.50 minimum wage which currently buys (say) a Sandwich/fast food lunch + a return tube fare may only end up being priced out of a warm toastie/Mcdonald's lunch but instead end up buying a supermarket sandwich. This may not be much on this scale, but when scaled up to other, bigger spending, it can add up, especially for those who live hand to mouth.

Not increasing the minimum wage or creating lower minimum wage 'exemptions' may be what happens. For instance, anyone who hasn't worked continuously for (say) 2 years in one company may get a lower minimum wage, young people, part-timers (under a certain number of hours if on a regular contract - think: The Tories have abolished zero-hours contracts - but employers don't lose out) and so on.

But that doesn't really have anything to do with the EU. The minimum wage in the UK is mandated by the UK Government, not the EU. If the Tories wanted to reduce the minimum wage or create exemptions to it, they could do so anyway. I would say the barrier to doing that is not the EU - it's that it would be electorally unpopular.

And btw - also not really to do with the EU - but you need to take care with comparing how much you could buy if the minimum wage changed, because of the risk that increasing the minimum wage could itself cause prices to increase.

 

[Howardh]

But that doesn't really have anything to do with the EU. The minimum wage in the UK is mandated by the UK Government, not the EU..

But...but...but, I thought the UK didn't have it's own sovrenity innit bruv??? All us rulez dictated by Brussels letz leave the EU....

 

[edwin_m]

The irony being that since the vote net EU immigration has decreased but non-EU figures seem to be up to compensate. The EU waves were abating, not least because the pool of younger people with the courage to move to a foreign land was drying up anyway.

I'd dispute your reasoning - there will always be more young people with courage. Perhaps it's more a question of the EU being successful in improving the economies of its more recent members, therefore decreasing the incentive for their citizens to go and work elsewhere. Or perhaps the consequences of Brexit - likely worsening of the economy and actual increase in hostility to immigrants - makes it less likely that EU citizens will want to come to the UK anyway.

 

[radamfi]

The irony being that since the vote net EU immigration has decreased but non-EU figures seem to be up to compensate. The EU waves were abating, not least because the pool of younger people with the courage to move to a foreign land was drying up anyway. That's not the case from many populous countries around the globe, many of which teach English to a large proportion of their better educated people.

Perceptions are gained from many sources; facts get lost along the way.

The problem that the UK has now is that it won't be able to attract immigration from the EU, even if the UK adopted a less strict immigration policy, which is most likely going to be required to maintain single market access. EU migrants will go elsewhere because they have the security that they will be able to live there indefinitely without having to get a work permit or similar. That's not even taking into account the negative image of the UK across Europe.

All western countries need substantial levels of immigration of young people to deal with the demographic time bomb. The rhetoric may be anti-immigration but governments know it is needed regardless.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

That's not even taking into account the negative image of the UK across Europe.

Do we really have such a negative image across Europe? Is there anyone who's lived in any part of Europe who can confirm of deny this. Yes, I know that the UK Government has behaved atrociously over Brexit, and Nigel Farage and his ilk have been lying about and misrepresenting the EU for years. But is that so much worse than what goes on in other parts of Europe? You have Greece with its longstanding financial problems and its terrible behaviour towards the EU about 10 years ago when the Greek Government for ages acted like it was the the EU's responsibility to single-handedly provide Greece with an unlimited supply of money to rescue Greece from problems entirely of Greece's own making, and threatening all sorts of trouble if the EU didn't comply (Fortunately the EU largely stood its ground). You have Poland and Hungary where the Governments are increasingly repressing the media and pursuing nationalist, authoritarian policies that make Nigel Farage look like a friendly puppy in comparison, and which run totally counter to the principles of the EU. There have been all the problems of the Gilets Jaunes in France, and still ongoing simmering disagreements right across Europe about handling and distributing migrants from the Middle East and Africa. Does the UK and Brexit really stand out that badly amongst all that? (Genuine question, I've love to know the answer to that, although I'm guessing the answer may vary according to where you are in Europe).

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Do we really have such a negative image across Europe? Is there anyone who's lived in any part of Europe who can confirm of deny this. Yes, I know that the UK Government has behaved atrociously over Brexit, and Nigel Farage and his ilk have been lying about and misrepresenting the EU for years. But is that so much worse than what goes on in other parts of Europe? You have Greece with its longstanding financial problems and its terrible behaviour towards the EU about 10 years ago when the Greek Government for ages acted like it was the the EU's responsibility to single-handedly provide Greece with an unlimited supply of money to rescue Greece from problems entirely of Greece's own making, and threatening all sorts of trouble if the EU didn't comply (Fortunately the EU largely stood its ground). You have Poland and Hungary where the Governments are increasingly repressing the media and pursuing nationalist, authoritarian policies that make Nigel Farage look like a friendly puppy in comparison, and which run totally counter to the principles of the EU. There have been all the problems of the Gilets Jaunes in France, and still ongoing simmering disagreements right across Europe about handling and distributing migrants from the Middle East and Africa. Does the UK and Brexit really stand out that badly amongst all that? (Genuine question, I've love to know the answer to that, although I'm guessing the answer may vary according to where you are in Europe).

I honestly find that the perception of the UK abroad is clouded by those British people who see the UK themselves.

 

[Bantamzen]

Do we really have such a negative image across Europe? Is there anyone who's lived in any part of Europe who can confirm of deny this. Yes, I know that the UK Government has behaved atrociously over Brexit, and Nigel Farage and his ilk have been lying about and misrepresenting the EU for years. But is that so much worse than what goes on in other parts of Europe? You have Greece with its longstanding financial problems and its terrible behaviour towards the EU about 10 years ago when the Greek Government for ages acted like it was the the EU's responsibility to single-handedly provide Greece with an unlimited supply of money to rescue Greece from problems entirely of Greece's own making, and threatening all sorts of trouble if the EU didn't comply (Fortunately the EU largely stood its ground). You have Poland and Hungary where the Governments are increasingly repressing the media and pursuing nationalist, authoritarian policies that make Nigel Farage look like a friendly puppy in comparison, and which run totally counter to the principles of the EU. There have been all the problems of the Gilets Jaunes in France, and still ongoing simmering disagreements right across Europe about handling and distributing migrants from the Middle East and Africa. Does the UK and Brexit really stand out that badly amongst all that? (Genuine question, I've love to know the answer to that, although I'm guessing the answer may vary according to where you are in Europe).

I honestly find that the perception of the UK abroad is clouded by those British people who see the UK themselves.

The perception of the UK in Europe has long been driven by how some of us act abroad. I'm afraid the imagine of a loutish & very insular nation persists in many countries, although as Brits have started to move from the traditional holidays this has changed a little. But we are still own worst enemies when it comes to this, too many Brits still expect their holiday destinations to be Blackpool del Mediterranean, with English breakfasts, Tetley's on draft, and not a word of local dialect ever needed.

From what I've observed in recent years, both talking to locals and what has been on the local news, Brexit is a bit of a mystery to some Europeans. Yes the EU is far from perfect most would agree, but a union of so many countries working together is better than individual countries squabbling amongst themselves they would also argue. And the impression I get is that these Europeans see Brexit as an extension of the ever so slightly jingoistic British ego, and the product of a nation ill at ease with it's relationship with others.

 

[Ianno87]

Yes the EU is far from perfect most would agree, but a union of so many countries working together is better than individual countries squabbling amongst themselves they would also argue.

A reasonable viewpoint, given that "squabbling smongst themselves" lead to two world wars.

As the British mainland was never invaded at any point, the "we survived two world wars so we can survive Brexit" brigade never really understood the real harsh reality of war that those in continental Europe experienced.

And why the EU, for all its flaws, has been vital in establishing peace and understanding across Europe ever since.

 

[Bantamzen]

A reasonable viewpoint, given that "squabbling smongst themselves" lead to two world wars.

As the British mainland was never invaded at any point, the "we survived two world wars so we can survive Brexit" brigade never really understood the real harsh reality of war that those in continental Europe experienced.

And why the EU, for all its flaws, has been vital in establishing peace and understanding across Europe ever since.

Indeed, whilst Europe has spent the decades after WWII rebuilding, forging new links & generally learning from their mistakes, the UK has basked in the ever fading glory of victory (as in fading from living memory). And so we still see ourselves as an island nation, somehow separate and unique from the rest of the European continent, and this helps to perpetuate our deep rooted, underlying suspicion of all things "foreign". This is the fundamental culture that leave campaigners played to, vote Brexit to get Johnny Foreigner out of our business, and maybe (but whisper it quietly) stop them coming here to take our jobs, claim our benefits, blah, blah, blah. They talk of a Great Britain standing alone, defending our land, borders, culture, of the Union Flag flying high, of better times for everyone, they talk of Dunkirk spirit (which when you think about it is an odd one to draw upon). What they don't talk about is that the world has changed, countries like the EU27 have recognised the value in closer co-operation, in working together to try to help all countries reach something of a level playing field, of taking down borders and long held suspicions. And most of all they don't talk about how very difficult it will be to regain anything like our position once we leave.

 

[ainsworth74]

As the British mainland was never invaded at any point, the "we survived two world wars so we can survive Brexit" brigade never really understood the real harsh reality of war that those in continental Europe experienced.

Plus, of course, the majority of them weren't even born when the war was going on or were very young children...

 

[Mag_seven]

"Dunkirk Spirit" implies Brexit is a bad thing - but we were told by the same people that Brexit was a good thing!

 

[Ianno87]

"Dunkirk Spirit" implies Brexit is a bad thing - but we were told by the same people that Brexit was a good thing!

Suspiciously, we're never told *why* it'a a good thing.

But in the same breath, being told it will do "us"* good if it makes us poorer/have less plentiful food supply.

*"Us" I take to mean "everybody but myself, who of course will expect everything to be in the supermarket as usual and will take it out on the shop assistant if it isn't"

 

[SteveP29]

I’ve saved for my retirement, so I have no vested interest in the pyramid.

Lucky you, now have a think about the less fortunate, those that work zero hours contracts, those that pay ridiculous rents INTO pension age etc.

The EU and many of its members have enormous problems (most of the major ones being of the EU's own making)

The majority of the UK's 'problems' are UK Government inflicted, to leave arguably the world's biggest trading bloc and all the benefits that entails is lunacy AND those 'problems' would STILL be there. Don't you remember that Government study that showed that EVERY region of the UK will be worse off by leaving, or is that a price worth paying?

 

[Peter Kelford]

The majority of the UK's 'problems' are UK Government inflicted, to leave arguably the world's biggest trading bloc and all the benefits that entails is lunacy AND those 'problems' would STILL be there. Don't you remember that Government study that showed that EVERY region of the UK will be worse off by leaving, or is that a price worth paying?

Might I remind members that the consensus is that the EU is a very close 2nd largest economy by GDP and thus has a lot of leverage on the world stage, something the UK won't be able to enjoy post-Brexit?

 

[nlogax]

It looks as though the EU has signed off on the 'flextension' to January 31st. This will still need a vote in Parliament to enact, just like the previous extension.

Also a reasonable chance of a general election being agreed for December (Monday 9th or Thursday 12th) by amendment to the FTPA to ensure it moves to a simple parliamentary majority. A Monday election would be rare enough, but this would also be the first December election since 1923.

The real question is, will a GE actually effect any fundamental change in terms of parliamentary arithmetic?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The real question is, will a GE actually effect any fundamental change in terms of parliamentary arithmetic?

Polls seem to suggest it will give Bozza a decent majority, which is why he wants it, and why (unusually) it was blocked before. Though TBH I'm as annoyed at the rest of Parliament as I am at him for failing to come to a consensus on an alternative course of action, so he's right that they are impotent and useless.

 

[ainsworth74]

The cultural chat was getting incredibly off-topic and so has been moved into a new thread which can be found here. Let's at least try and vaguely stick to Brexit in this thread?

 

[nlogax]

Polls seem to suggest it will give Bozza a decent majority, which is why he wants it, and why (unusually) it was blocked before. Though TBH I'm as annoyed at the rest of Parliament as I am at him for failing to come to a consensus on an alternative course of action, so he's right that they are impotent and useless.

It's pretty evident that Corbyn and Labour just aren't ready for a GE. Trying to ensure all versions of no-deal are removed from the table is nigh-on impossible and feels like a stalling tactic. This may have been a useful tactic for the Benn act but with an extension all but confirmed this now leaves them looking exposed, inept and increasingly divided. Also noteworthy that the wheels are properly falling off the People's Vote wagon today.

 

[SteveP29]

I hope you never need to use the NHS or require any care in the future should your savings run out.

I could say they should be denied the use of the NHS till they've paid, but that would make me as bad as them.

Only about 5% of why people voted to leave were genuine reasons founded on their interpretation of facts

I still haven't heard or read of any genuine reasons that weren't something that the UK Government could have addressed or influenced without the EU being blamed

I think many Brexiteers are against a specific sort of immigration, yes.

You mean 'brown' people and to quote somebody I read on Facebook 'dirty scruffy child raping Muslims'

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also noteworthy that the wheels are properly falling off the People's Vote wagon today.

Yet to me it is the obvious answer. It will do one of two things, both of which will be better than the situation now, and better than having a GE based on a single issue.

1. Confirm that Brexit is desired and that either Bozza's deal is the correct choice or that "no deal" is the correct choice.
2. Confirm that the view has changed in favour of remaining instead.

I cannot see a single good reason NOT to have a second confirmatory refererendum now, with the legislation making the result immediate and binding.

 

[DarloRich]

anyone seen a decent ditch for the PM to use?

 

[BlueFox]

anyone seen a decent ditch for the PM to use?

https://twitter.com/thefridgeman/status/1188765425909272577?s=20

 

[JonasB]

Do we really have such a negative image across Europe? Is there anyone who's lived in any part of Europe who can confirm of deny this.

I can at least confirm that it hasn't improved during the last three years.

 

[Ianno87]

Yet to me it is the obvious answer. It will do one of two things, both of which will be better than the situation now, and better than having a GE based on a single issue.

1. Confirm that Brexit is desired and that either Bozza's deal is the correct choice or that "no deal" is the correct choice.
2. Confirm that the view has changed in favour of remaining instead.

I cannot see a single good reason NOT to have a second confirmatory refererendum now, with the legislation making the result immediate and binding.

Only if there is a clear, decisive margin one way or the other. The risk is it still demonstrates a country split down the middle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Only if there is a clear, decisive margin one way or the other. The risk is it still demonstrates a country split down the middle.

Even if it's narrow, it still backs up that now we know what Brexit entails that we still want that (or not).

 

[alex397]

As the British mainland was never invaded at any point, the "we survived two world wars so we can survive Brexit" brigade never really understood the real harsh reality of war that those in continental Europe experienced.

And why the EU, for all its flaws, has been vital in establishing peace and understanding across Europe ever since.

Im hearing a lot of references to how we "got through the war" and stuff like that. Well, we only just got through the war, and a huge number of people died. Secondly, we certainly didn't do it on our own!

I think it's incredibly offensive for Brexiteers to compare this to WW2. I hope Remembrance Day won't got caught up in all this nonsense.

 

[nlogax]

I think it's incredibly offensive for Brexiteers to compare this to WW2. I hope Remembrance Day won't got caught up in all this nonsense.

Not really offensive, just foolish and a little bit desperate on their part to make such asinine comparisons. A few of them like to take any opportunity use wartime diatribe. Doesn't help that the likes of Mark Francois like to slip military-speak into every other media soundbite. Certain vocal Brexiteers lap that stuff up.