EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Howardh]

Well a Google search brings up a FAQ on the ETIAS visa-waiver: https://www.etias.info/visa-requirements/uk-citizens/



So what do they mean by that???

It means you simply can't set off on a whim and expect to be let in with just your passport as happened before (example, someone in London fancying a Eurostar to Lille for some shopping the same day). You need to establish your ETIAS which takes around 72hrs as alluded to already - more if there's an issue.
And your passport has to have at least 6 months validity on it (maybe 6 months to the return date, I dunno?) so anyone who's passport is due to expire next year needs to bear that in mind.

These restrictions didn't even happen before we joined the EEC, indeed one could purchase an one-day passport for France from the Post Office. Welcome to the future and all the red tape it brings, when I though leaving the EU was meant to reduce red tape? Ha.

 

[DerekC]

Yes that's one of them, the one that stops us even talking to the other 5.5 billion people in the world.

There was a Brexiteer logic which treated the EU as "them" and the UK (or more usually England) as "us". We were until today part of the EU, therefore we participated as a member in getting deals with the 5.5 billion other people in the world. Much better deals than, sadly, I am afraid we are going to get now.

I wonder if it's time to close this thread and start a new one focused on coping with the new situation. There really isn't much point in reciting these tired old arguments. They are now obsolete. We have to move forward.

 

[bramling]

There was a Brexiteer logic which treated the EU as "them" and the UK (or more usually England) as "us". We were until today part of the EU, therefore we participated as a member in getting deals with the 5.5 billion other people in the world. Much better deals than, sadly, I am afraid we are going to get now.

I wonder if it's time to close this thread and start a new one focused on coping with the new situation. There really isn't much point in reciting these tired old arguments. They are now obsolete. We have to move forward.

I love the way it’s framed up as “coping”, straight away with an inference of distress. I think back to all the dire predictions of empty supermarket shelves, people dying because they can’t get vital medication, Kent gridlocked, job losses galore, violence in Northern Ireland and all the rest, and strangely enough none of it has happened. On the positive side EU immigration has already shown signs of falling.

 

[Esker-pades]

I love the way it’s framed up as “coping”, straight away with an inference of distress. I think back to all the dire predictions of empty supermarket shelves, people dying because they can’t get vital medication, Kent gridlocked, job losses galore, violence in Northern Ireland and all the rest, and strangely enough none of it has happened. On the positive side EU immigration has already shown signs of falling.

To be fair, such predictions where made contingent on the UK leaving without a deal. We're still in a transition, so that prospect is delayed for a year.

 

[Struner]

[…]
These restrictions didn't even happen before we joined the EEC, indeed one could purchase an one-day passport for France from the Post Office. Welcome to the future and all the red tape it brings, when I though leaving the EU was meant to reduce red tape? Ha.

Lol, indeed. Though I remember to have to fill in some form telling them where I was going upon arrival in the UK.
On a serious trip I would have a proper destination (& a respectable one as well tbh) but as a tourist one would just have to make something up. Remember using the respectable one once - not before I told them of course.

 

[Mag_seven]

To be fair, such predictions where made contingent on the UK leaving without a deal. We're still in a transition, so that prospect is delayed for a year.

Indeed. "No deal" is still very much a risk so we need to call out any Brexiter claim that "we told you everything would be OK" for the disingenuous statement that it is.

 

[bramling]

To be fair, such predictions where made contingent on the UK leaving without a deal. We're still in a transition, so that prospect is delayed for a year.

The emergency budget wasn't predicated on no deal...

 

[Ianno87]

. On the positive side EU immigration has already shown signs of falling.

Fascinating you say that rather than "population growth is slowing" (the thing you previously claimed to be wanting).

When you say "it's not about race", not entirely sure I believe you.

 

[Esker-pades]

The emergency budget wasn't predicated on no deal...

Simply, George Osbourne is an arse.

That comment was criticised as much on the remain side as the leave side.

It's also important to distinuish between actual predictions made by experts, and ill-judged guesswork spewed out of the mouths of politicians.

 

[bramling]

Fascinating you say that rather than "population growth is slowing" (the thing you previously claimed to be wanting).

When you say "it's not about race", not entirely sure I believe you.

So EU immigration isn't a contributor to population growth? As many have been only too quick to point out, Brexit doesn't affect birth rates and non-EU immigration, lest Brexit-supporters be accused of wrongly thinking Brexit is the solution to all, rather than some, issues...

 

[bramling]

Simply, George Osbourne is an arse.

That comment was criticised as much on the remain side as the leave side.

It's also important to distinuish between actual predictions made by experts, and ill-judged guesswork spewed out of the mouths of politicians.

I agree Osborne was and is an arse, indeed the way he's conducted himself since the referendum has made that very clear indeed - in contrast with Cameron's more dignified near-silence. However, he was the chancellor at the time, so I don't think you can dismiss him as just some politician.

 

[bramling]

Indeed. "No deal" is still very much a risk so we need to call out any Brexiter claim that "we told you everything would be OK" for the disingenuous statement that it is.

Many leavers actually expected to suffer some degree of pain associated with leaving, I don't think it's right to insinuate that leavers thought / think everything is going to be pure sweetness and honey. Like everything in life it's a trade-off. Personally I've taken a (very slight) hit with interest rates falling, for example, which I fully expected and factored in to my leave vote.

 

[Esker-pades]

I agree Osborne was and is an arse, indeed the way he's conducted himself since the referendum has made that very clear indeed - in contrast with Cameron's more dignified near-silence. However, he was the chancellor at the time, so I don't think you can dismiss him as just some politician.

He was a politician at the time, and I don't think one could classify him as an expert, certainly not one making a proper, evidence/model-based prediction. Further, it was nowhere near the level of rigorousness of all the various assessments carried out by both May and Johnson's government on the effect of leaving, and to the predictions made by actual experts on the effect of no-deal.

Many leavers actually expected to suffer some degree of pain associated with leaving, I don't think it's right to insinuate that leavers thought / think everything is going to be pure sweetness and honey. Like everything in life it's a trade-off. Personally I've taken a (very slight) hit with interest rates falling, for example, which I fully expected and factored in to my leave vote.

Here we go:
David Davis (leaver)

There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside

Liam Fox (leaver)

Coming to a free trade agreement with the EU should be one of the easiest in human history

Michael Gove (leaver)

The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want

If we vote to leave then I think the union will be stronger

John Redwood (leaver)

Getting out of the EU can be quick and easy – the UK holds most of the cards

Gerrard Batton (leaver)

Trade relations with the EU could be sorted out in 'an afternoon over a cup of coffee

You may well have thought that Brexit wouldn't be "pure sweetness and honey", but there is evidence to say that some leavers did think that.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Many leavers actually expected to suffer some degree of pain associated with leaving, I don't think it's right to insinuate that leavers thought / think everything is going to be pure sweetness and honey. Like everything in life it's a trade-off. Personally I've taken a (very slight) hit with interest rates falling, for example, which I fully expected and factored in to my leave vote.

Boo Hoo for you. Your interest rates have sunk and a little and my brother is now unemployed. How's that for a trade-off. Would you like to stand face to face with him and have that conversation?

 

[bramling]

Boo Hoo for you. Your interest rates have sunk and a little and my brother is now unemployed. How's that for a trade-off. Would you like to stand face to face with him and have that conversation?

Yet UK unemployment is apparently at an all-time low, and compares favourably to many EU countries for example France, Spain and Italy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50820280

 

[Mag_seven]

Many leavers actually expected to suffer some degree of pain associated with leaving

I don't recall that, sorry.

 

[Darandio]

Yet UK unemployment is apparently at an all-time low, and compares favourably to many EU countries for example France, Spain and Italy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50820280

It's amazing what they can do with figures.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Yet UK unemployment is apparently at an all-time low, and compares favourably to many EU countries for example France, Spain and Italy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50820280

He used to work in France and Italy - the firm that he works for would not renew his contract for fear that he would not be able to work this year.

Now - how do you feel about explaining your minor investment blip to his loss of job?

 

[bramling]

It's amazing what they can do with figures.

So are you disputing

(1) Unemployment has trended to fall since the referendum?

and

(2) Unemployment in the UK compares favorably to the three (EU) countries I mentioned?

 

[bramling]

He used to work in France and Italy - the firm that he works for would not renew his contract for fear that he would not be able to work this year.

Out of interest, was this due to Brexit itself, or due to the uncertainty we've had over the last year?

Now - how do you feel about explaining your minor investment blip to his loss of job?

It isn't for me to justify a company's decisions, however given unemployment is undisputedly low and been on a falling trend since the referendum, I don't think there's anything for me to feel guilty about.

 

[Darandio]

So are you disputing

(1) Unemployment has trended to fall since the referendum?

and

(2) Unemployment in the UK compares favorably to the three (EU) countries I mentioned?

I'm disputing that UK unemployment is at an all time low. Plenty of studies out there suggest the real figure is far higher.

 

[bramling]

I'm disputing that UK unemployment is at an all time low. Plenty of studies out there suggest the real figure is far higher.

So do you think EU membership would have put us in a substantially better position, given that (1) it doesn't seem to have benefited comparable EU countries like France, and (2) even if one disputes the figures it's hard to argue that the trend hasn't been downwards since the referendum, which isn't what the doom-mongers would have us come to expect?

 

[Doppelganger]

Yet UK unemployment is apparently at an all-time low

Yep, those zero hour contracts are really amazing aren't they?

 

[Puffing Devil]

Out of interest, was this due to Brexit itself, or due to the uncertainty we've had over the last year?

It isn't for me to justify a company's decisions, however given unemployment is undisputedly low and been on a falling trend since the referendum, I don't think there's anything for me to feel guilty about.

Unbelievable. Without Brexit he would still have a contract. I'm really done with you.

 

[bramling]

Yep, those zero hour contracts are really amazing aren't they?

I think I'm right in saying this is less than 3% of the total labour force (with some of that percentage being taken up by non UK nationals).

 

[Doppelganger]

Many leavers actually expected to suffer some degree of pain associated with leaving, I don't think it's right to insinuate that leavers thought / think everything is going to be pure sweetness and honey. Like everything in life it's a trade-off. Personally I've taken a (very slight) hit with interest rates falling, for example, which I fully expected and factored in to my leave vote.

Do you actually comprehend theconcept of the transition period which is connected with the EU Withdrawal Agreement?

 

[bramling]

Do you actually comprehend theconcept of the transition period which is connected with the EU Withdrawal Agreement?

Yes, part of leaving with a deal which is what the majority of the Brexit-advocating politicians stated would be their preferred best outcome. Notwithstanding last year's shenanigans in parliament this is exactly what has, thusfar, been delivered.

 

[Doppelganger]

I think I'm right in saying this is less than 3% of the total labour force (with some of that percentage being taken up by non UK nationals).

It's about 6%. Do you actually do any fact checking yourself?

But in this case the percentage is unimportant as that 6% represents 1.8 million contracts, which is 1.8 million contracts too many

 

[Doppelganger]

Yes, part of leaving with a deal which is what the majority of the Brexit-advocating politicians stated would be their preferred best outcome. Notwithstanding last year's shenanigans in parliament this is exactly what has, thusfar, been delivered.

So you don't understand then. The withdrawal agreement is not a deal.

Thanks for confirming what I think a lot of us on here already thought about your grasp of the situation.

Either way, we are certainly relieved to have people such as you at the helm.

 

[bramling]

It's about 6%. Do you actually do any fact checking yourself?

The figure I quoted actually came from the ONS. April-June 2019, percentage of people in employment on a zero-hours contract - 2.7%.